Judging Fellow Christians

[Singinbeauty]

Ok, I will get straight to the point…

Why do we, as christians, find it so darn insanely important to judge other christians and where their hearts are?

Countless places I have been to and even when I have been out on the street you see and hear christians saying this or that person is not a christian because of such and such action and that they should be excluded from certain church activities. There are also other christians who are nervous about darkening a church’s doorstep because of the judgement that they feel will overshadow them because of the eyes of the congregation.

Who are we to make someone feel that they can’t come to church because of certain practices in their life or choices that they have made?

As you probably have guessed I do have a reason for this post though I don’t know if I am comfortable enough to share it as it is in regards to my brother and I don’t want to get into a whole debate about him or his choices. But it pains me so much to see the hypocritical judgements made by fellow christians on him and others who have made choices to sin that they just can’t hide from society.

This really is bugging me… I would like to discuss this rationally on here to maybe find an answer of how to deal with my own judgements ('cause I, like everyone, do have certain expectations that are unfair of my brothers and sisters in Christ) and to make others aware of how to recognize their own judgements that they make… Thank you everyone who participates and let’s remember to keep cool heads in here! Please speak in charity as this conversation goes on…

 

[Sherlock]

Well, to be honest I simply haven’t come across the judgementalism that you speak of. I have a friend who used to attend an Evangelical church (a “Covenant” church?) that talked about this, as she was essentially turned off by their condemning attitudes (as one example, she showed up for choir practice–practice, mind you—wearing slacks instead of a dress, and was chastised for it). Why would someone do that? Perhaps to alleviate their own insecurity? I wonder if that is more of a tendency in in “once saved, always saved” churches, as I suspect that the concept itself is a reaction to insecurity (as a Catholic, I think they’re searching for absolution). Perhaps the insecurity needs to reassure itself of its “saved” status by constantly comparing itself to others. Just a guess: I haven’t come across much of what you speak of.

 

[Singinbeauty]

This happens in ANY denomination… even the catholic church. A woman who is pregnant outside of marriage goes through so much in a lot of churches.

I know of one woman who was in a leadership position in a church and while it was right for her to be asked to step down from her role in the church she also was told by certain members that she was to not even LOOK at a new person in the congregation let alone talk to them because of her situation. She couldn’t even say hi or greet them in any way. She was watched constantly to see how many times she came to church and she was chastized if she wasn’t there for all the services on a Sunday. I couldn’t believe this.

There are those who believe that a woman who has sex outside of marriage, even if she has turned away from it, she is dirty and doesn’t deserve someone who has waited and basically should live her life alone. In fact this goes for both male and female.

There are those who believe that if you are a practicing homosexual you can’t go to church. Maybe even if you aren’t practicing but admit that you have those tendancies.

It just baffles me…

 

[hurst]

Singinbeauty:

Ok, I will get straight to the point…

Why do we, as christians, find it so darn insanely important to judge other christians and where their hearts are?

I think we can solve this by distinguishing between internal and external judgment.

We cannot judge the heart of another directly, for only God knows the heart of a man.

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother’s way.

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge not before the time; until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall every man have praise from God.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as being to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment.

James 5:9 Grudge not, brethren, one against another, that you may not be judged. Behold the judge standeth before the door.

But we can and must judge the tree by its fruit. We must do just judgment.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

Luke 12:56 You hypocrites, you know how to discern the face of the heaven and of the earth: but how is it that you do not discern this time? 57 And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?

John 7:23 If a man receive circumcision on the sabbath day, that the law of Moses may not be broken; are you angry at me because I have healed the whole man on the sabbath day? 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge just judgment.

Leviticus 19:15 Thou shalt not do that which is unjust, nor judge unjustly. Respect not the person of the poor, nor honour the countenance of the mighty. But judge thy neighbour according to justice.

DRV Psalms 57:2 If in very deed you speak justice: judge right things, ye sons of men.

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them that are without? Do not you judge them that are within? 13 For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from among yourselves.

Zacharias 7:9 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, saying: Judge ye true judgment, and shew ye mercy and compassion every man to his brother.

Isaias 5:7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel: and the man of Juda, his pleasant plant: and I looked that he should do judgment, and behold iniquity: and do justice, and behold a cry.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Know you not that the saints shall judge this world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things of this world?

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother’s way.

Proverbs 21:7 The robberies of the wicked shall be their downfall, because they would not do judgment.

Proverbs 21:15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: and dread to them that work iniquity.

By these verses, we see that we are not to judge the interior disposition of a man’s heart. For Christ paid dearly for all. And though He knew everyone’s heart, He did not count that against them, for He came to save us.

But we are told to beware false prophets, the leaven of the pharisees, and those in otherwise bad behavior. We are to judge what is right in the eyes of God. We are to judge just judgement.

hurst

 

[Tietjen]

Singinbeauty:

This happens in ANY denomination… even the catholic church. A woman who is pregnant outside of marriage goes through so much in a lot of churches.

I know of one woman who was in a leadership position in a church and while it was right for her to be asked to step down from her role in the church she also was told by certain members that she was to not even LOOK at a new person in the congregation let alone talk to them because of her situation. She couldn’t even say hi or greet them in any way. She was watched constantly to see how many times she came to church and she was chastized if she wasn’t there for all the services on a Sunday. I couldn’t believe this.

There are those who believe that a woman who has sex outside of marriage, even if she has turned away from it, she is dirty and doesn’t deserve someone who has waited and basically should live her life alone. In fact this goes for both male and female.

There are those who believe that if you are a practicing homosexual you can’t go to church. Maybe even if you aren’t practicing but admit that you have those tendancies.

It just baffles me…

I have to agree with Sherlock on this. I too have not seen this type of behavior within the Catholic Church. That’s not to say that ALL parishes are the same and I am sure that somewhere there is an exception (though if there is, it is not right). In the examples that you gave, it is simply unimaginable to me that members of a parish would be ostracized like that. If I witnessed something like what you described happening to the pregnant single lady, I’d have a little chat with those that felt it their place to exclude her. If that didn’t help, I’d take it to the Priest where I am very sure it would be handled. Those who are physically ill go to hospitals. Those who have sinned go to confession and church. I don’t see patients waiting at the hospital doors judging who is to be admitted and I likewise don’t see my fellow parishioners waiting at the Church doors determining who is good enough to be a member. If this goes on in your parish, you need to bring it to the attention of the clergy. If you are not Catholic, you may consider going to the pastor of the church.

 

[hurst]

Singinbeauty:

Countless places I have been to and even when I have been out on the street you see and hear christians saying this or that person is not a christian because of such and such action and that they should be excluded from certain church activities.

There can be a good reason for this. We must beware false prophets, for example. We must remove the evil from among us.

But it is wrong when, for example, we prefer the rich Christians and favor them to the detriment of the poor Christians.

But if someone is pretending to be a Christian, they should certainly be excluded, for obvious reasons.

Singinbeauty:

There are also other christians who are nervous about darkening a church’s doorstep because of the judgement that they feel will overshadow them because of the eyes of the congregation.

This statement is quite vague. By saying a “christian” is feeling this way implies that something is wrong with the congregation. But suppose the congregation has reason to see that person as a wolf in sheep’s clothing? That such a person is not in fact a Christian?

Once at Mass there was an old ragged man who came in and sat in the front. During services, he suddenly got up and started yelling and waving his arms etc., disrupting the Mass. Some people apprehended him and removed him. Now, is there anything unusual if that person would be nervous about returning to that church? Let us hope he does not return, unless perhaps to seek reconciliation and make amends.

Singinbeauty:

Who are we to make someone feel that they can’t come to church because of certain practices in their life or choices that they have made?

We shouldn’t “make” anyone “feel” anything. We as a church should treat them according to their conduct. If that makes them feel a certain way, then it is their own conscience they are answering to. God’s justice works that way.

If someone feels afraid to come to church because of certain practices or choices they have made, then there is probably a good reason in their own mind for it. And it could be an angel preventing them from approaching. This can especially happen if the person has chosen wicked ways and does not wish to repent of them.

Just because they don’t like it doesn’t mean it is unjust. They could be whining for all you know. Would you defend someone who is whining? A selfish person not feeling like his behavior is acceptable might complain about feeling unwanted and that the congregation is mean…

It could also be that the person is harboring resentment toward the congregation, and in being unwilling to forgive, does not sense forgiveness. This too is part of God’s justice.

Singinbeauty:

But it pains me so much to see the hypocritical judgements made by fellow christians on him and others who have made choices to sin that they just can’t hide from society.

If a public sinner publicly repents, he should be welcomed. But it is more than “saying sorry”. One must show fruits worthy of penance. (Acts 26:20) Saul of Tarsus is a case in point.

hurst

 

[deb1]

Because I am new to the Catholic church I can’t yet comment on whether its members are more or less judgemental then other denominations. I would guess that having an air of superority is one of the negative aspects of human nature that we must purge during our maturity as Christians.

I, too, have come across situations in which I felt that people were being unfairly judgemental of others. In my previous church the definition of who was and wasn’t a Christian was very, very narrow. It was believed that the Holy Spirit would guide you to act in a certain fashion and if you didn’t act in that manner then you weren’t a christian.

For example, in my last church these are examples of the rules for being Christian. Men had to have short, short hair like in the fifties or the military. You had to attend all church services and functions. I was chastised by a group of women and the pastor for not being spiritual enough because I never went to Wednesday service. My husband was told to** make** me go. Drinking alcohol was considered a sin. Any rock music, even Christian rock, was bad and even the regular church music was slowed down. All of this produced a certain amount of judgemental attitude in me that was wrong and sinful on my part.

 

[Church_Militant]

Well, so far we have had a pretty good list of the Biblical passages on judging, so we know the essentials I think, and that is good. One thing that we seem to often forget is that almost all the letters to the churches in the New Testament were to churches that had some sort of problem with sin, yet St. Paul never tells them they are not Christians does he?

One thing that my sainted grandmother used to teach me to say whenever I griped about the failings of others was, “There but for the grace of God go I.” It’s a good thing to consider whenever we find ourselves getting down on others.

Who was it? Aldous Huxley in “Time Must Have a Stop” who said, "There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that’s your own self. ‘’ (Yes, I know he’s not “one of us”, but that doesn’t make his insight less valid in this case, does it?) I think he’s right. When I encounter brothers and sisters who seem to be messed up somehow, I first consider if God has placed me in a relationship with them where they will be interested in my counsel, if so, then I will try to find a way to offer some help, if not, then I do the one thing that I can do and not go wrong, I pray for them, and keep my mouth shut except to God.

Being into my faith so much and by nature inclined to apologetics, (How many Irish Catholics don’t love a good debate!?) I have to watch myself to insure that I don’t take someone else’s comments about the church personally. I can’t change anyone, and it’s not my job anyway. It is the work of the Holy Spirit and the minute I forget that, I sin.

Better to walk the path to heaven with another struggling soul than to leave them behind when they fall and then in turn be abandoned when I fall myself. Atheist Madelyn Murray O’Hare offered a hard hitting indictment of believers once when she commented, “Christians are the only army that shoots their wounded.”, and sadly she never spoke a truer word. I pray she found some of us who weren’t like that to help her into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 18:32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

Pax vobiscum,

 

[Sherlock]

Singinbeauty:

This happens in ANY denomination… even the catholic church. A woman who is pregnant outside of marriage goes through so much in a lot of churches.

I know of one woman who was in a leadership position in a church and while it was right for her to be asked to step down from her role in the church she also was told by certain members that she was to not even LOOK at a new person in the congregation let alone talk to them because of her situation. She couldn’t even say hi or greet them in any way. She was watched constantly to see how many times she came to church and she was chastized if she wasn’t there for all the services on a Sunday. I couldn’t believe this.

There are those who believe that a woman who has sex outside of marriage, even if she has turned away from it, she is dirty and doesn’t deserve someone who has waited and basically should live her life alone. In fact this goes for both male and female.

There are those who believe that if you are a practicing homosexual you can’t go to church. Maybe even if you aren’t practicing but admit that you have those tendancies.

It just baffles me…

Sorry, Singinbeauty, I guess I just haven’t seen it in our parish, and I’m involved enough so that I would hear about it if it occurred. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen in Catholic churches: human nature is human nature. But to be honest I just haven’t seen much of it.
I suppose it might be different if someone were NOT repentant, as is the case with the Rainbow Sash types. In that case, yes, you will hear a lot of criticism, but personally I think it’s deserved. Christianity is not relativism, and it’s not about tolerating evil. It is about forgiveness, though, and I have yet to see anyone in our parish treated badly who had turned towards God.

 

[Zooey]

I know what Singingbeauty means, though…There seems to be a tendency among some people–and I can’t really tell how to know who they are, until they start in–
There are folk that seem to find some kind of (unholy) satisfaction in being critical of others’ lives…I think these are usually pretty unhappy people, who have issues of their own.
I know of 2 cases of people that have wreaked havoc with wanting to, in one case, micro-manage everyone else’s lives ( because she “knows” how Christians should behave.
The other is even weirder: She is looking for a church with “no sinners in it” because she thinks that she is sinless…(Don’t get me :nope: started…)

What is the saying about the church being an “emergency ward for sinners”?? Maybe that is what we all need to try to remember better…
My take on this kind of thing is that there is something in these people that makes them need to either control and/or stand in judgement on others… (Which is, IMHO, not being judgemnetal, but I can be wrong here. It’s just my personal observation).

 

[deb1]

Zooey:

I know what Singingbeauty means, though…There seems to be a tendency among some people–and I can’t really tell how to know who they are, until they start in–
There are folk that seem to find some kind of (unholy) satisfaction in being critical of others’ lives…I think these are usually pretty unhappy people, who have issues of their own.
I know of 2 cases of people that have wreaked havoc with wanting to, in one case, micro-manage everyone else’s lives ( because she “knows” how Christians should behave.
The other is even weirder: She is looking for a church with “no sinners in it” because she thinks that she is sinless…(Don’t get me :nope: started…)

What is the saying about the church being an “emergency ward for sinners”?? Maybe that is what we all need to try to remember better…
My take on this kind of thing is that there is something in these people that makes them need to either control and/or stand in judgement on others… (Which is, IMHO, not being judgemnetal, but I can be wrong here. It’s just my personal observation).

I remember, before I was a Christain, I was introduced to a woman who seemed perputally shocked and outraged by everything. I won’t go into detail but she constantly used ‘being a Christian’ as an excuse to judge everyone. Later it became known that both she and her husband were having affairs on one another, she was anorexic and tried to comment suicide by driving her car into a pole. I felt very sorry for her, but I wonder if her judgemental attitude and desire to belittle everyone else had to do with her own insecurities.

 

[Zooey]

Deb, that is exactly the kind of thing I mean!!

And isn’t that a sad way to live? Yet, as much as I can feel pity for these people, I also am angered by the harm that they can do, if allowed to carry on with this kind of attitude.

 

[mark_a]

Singinbeauty:

Why do we, as christians, find it so darn insanely important to judge other christians and where their hearts are?

It’s nature. We’re all trying to be God’s favorite. It must make him sick sometimes.

 

[rwoehmke]

My wife and I have been told by a fellow Catholic that we are not Catholic and are going to hell. I have seen the same condemning attitude to others in our parish. It troubles me greatly because my belief is that we are called on by the spiritual works of mercy to admonish the sinner(when we see them committing public sin) but not to shun and judge them as being damned. Admonishment is of course a form of judgement, but it is a far cry from judging the condition of anothers soul which we are not to do. That is between them and God and their confessor.

 

[Sherlock]

rwoehmke:

My wife and I have been told by a fellow Catholic that we are not Catholic and are going to hell. I have seen the same condemning attitude to others in our parish. It troubles me greatly because my belief is that we are called on by the spiritual works of mercy to admonish the sinner(when we see them committing public sin) but not to shun and judge them as being damned. Admonishment is of course a form of judgement, but it is a far cry from judging the condition of anothers soul which we are not to do. That is between them and God and their confessor.

Wow, that’s odd. What’s going on in your parish? Can you give specifics? What does the person give as a reason?

 

[BlestOne]

I felt that I was looked down upon as a single mom in my parish, but you know what…it was me that was doing it to myself! Nobody else felt that way, I just projected it because I felt that way. Once when I was in church, a woman came up to me after mass and introduced herself this way, “Hi, I have seen you in mass every week but I don’t know you yet, my name is Sister Anita.” I looked around to be sure she was talking to me. I think she thought I was snubbing her. She then apologized for interupting my praying. I was so desperate to have someone talk to me in my new parish and I was blowing it! Quickly I answered her and introduced myself. She then commented on how well behaved my children were, and I waited…just waiting for her to ask where my husband was…she never did! We became friends and years later she confided that she thought I was too reserved when we met…me reserved…you’ve got to be kidding! We laughed about it! The point is, I did it to myself, I thought everyone would be judging me so I shut everyone out so I wouldn’t get hurt. Everyone I met at my parish has been very nice to me. When I got married in August, everyone celebrated with me.