Judging Others & Appearances

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Sometimes I know, believing in God, is very important. I have met plenty of nonbelievers that are far kinder than believers. I do not think faith alone gets you into heaven. It is easy to think the people who donate money to charities, devote their time to others or God will get into heaven. I wonder why Jesus forgave the thief on the cross beside him. Is it easy to assume the good people in society deserve heaven? Why does God even reward the most repugnant?
 
I wonder why Jesus forgave the thief on the cross beside him.
Maybe that had something to do with repentance and the thief professing his belief in Christ? Just an idea.

I think it is important to remember that God defines what good is. I agree that there are many nice secular people who donate to charity, help others, etc. But that doesn’t guarantee their salvation. Belief in Christ accompanied by good works that are an outward sign of the inner faith is what gets us to Heaven. Not just being nice by current secular standards.

It is best to pray for non-believers and leave their faith in God’s merciful hands. Their salvation has nothing to do with how we perceive their goodness, and what we think God will do with them.
 
The thief on the cross was a case of being truly sorry *before God *- his faith saved him. As said.

But there is also The Good Samaritan. People can be good based on the laws of what is good, true, and loving, all of which was created through Christ.

There are those who have never had an education about Christ or are at a disadvantage and so their cross may well be a cross of atheism. Not to be judged.

It is not for us to judge, as the previous poster said, but best to pray for them. However, being around people in society and various places is a duty, whether or not they are Catholics, because your example may bring them even closer to Jesus Himself.
  • You have the benefit of faith so you can show your faith in God AND do all you do - offer up all you do - for God. As a Christian. This is advantage over those who maybe do good things for more indirect reasons. Although not necessarily selfish ones.
So this leads on the first question about what faith constitutes?
  • As the story of the good Samaritan shows, one can have belief that God exists but not be towards others as He would have us be. This could be argued that if this is the case, that we preach what we don’t do, then our faith hasn’t gone as deep as it is capable.
So, belief in God is a part of faith. It is the bridge between our lives on this earth and God’s heavenly kingdom.

But another part of faith, is to show that love (Jesus said that we will keep his commandments if we love Him) to God. To do, love! St. Paul said: I have kept the faith! This would have meant believing but also expressing faith.

One cannot have faith in only in one’s head and expect praise because faith is to be shared - the inward and outward expression of faith for God.

I normally think of it like this: God breathes us in, and out again. This is what religious do - they go to prayers, then go and do.

So we take with one hand (from God - our faith) and give with the other hand (faith, as God gives to us).

🙂
 
Sometimes I know, believing in God, is very important. I have met plenty of nonbelievers that are far kinder than believers. I do not think faith alone gets you into heaven. It is easy to think the people who donate money to charities, devote their time to others or God will get into heaven. I wonder why Jesus forgave the thief on the cross beside him. Is it easy to assume the good people in society deserve heaven? Why does God even reward the most repugnant?
Probably the good people who are in this world and they do not belong to a particular Church are receiving graces from God anyway. The Sun does not only shine on believers. I believe as St. Paul has said when the believer sanctifies the unbeliever it is the Christians who come to the fount of Eternal Life (the Mass and the Divine Liturgy) that whenever we receive Jesus, the Lord also grants graces to everyone else who lives in the world be they believers or not. So the unbeliever whether they know it or not also receives these generous graces from the Lord. I do not care who you are and that includes atheists, it is by the grace of God that you are here and if you are doing any good it is the Lord that is working in you. They might not acknowledge the Lord in this life but the Lord has given them His acknowledgment. Perhaps the Lord will give them a bigger shot of grace when it will count for them to finally acknowledge Him and He may do this when they are close to death. God wants to save all. The Lord does count on the Church more than you think because the participants of His Son’s reception at the Mass and the Divine Liturgy enables God to send forth Graces to everyone on the planet no matter who they are. The more who come to receive the Lord Jesus the more the Graces are sent into the world. This is what God does for the world when we come to the Mass and the Divine Liturgy. However when we as Catholics, Orthodox and the rest of Eastern Christianity including those who have the Sacraments can unleash the Lord Jesus into this world, we do so by participating into some work and sacrifice outside the Mass and the Divine Liturgy between our Holy Communions so that our work and sacrifice would compliment the Lord’s. Our work and sacrifice would also penetrate unbelievers if we are taught to know how to unleash the power of God into the direction of the world.
 
Nobody gets into heaven by faith alone. That is a protestant belief. We must demonstrate our faith and charity by good works to attain heaven.

As far as someone being repugnant, I’m not 100% sure what you mean. God does not consider any creature he made to be repugnant, though He certainly may feel that some people’s behavior falls into that category. Since God gives us our entire life on earth to “get it right”, I think it’s fair to believe that no matter how great the sin that that sinner commits that God never gives up on us until we die and sincerely hopes that all will repent and return to the flock before death.
 
Sometimes I know, believing in God, is very important. I have met plenty of nonbelievers that are far kinder than believers. I do not think faith alone gets you into heaven. It is easy to think the people who donate money to charities, devote their time to others or God will get into heaven. I wonder why Jesus forgave the thief on the cross beside him. Is it easy to assume the good people in society deserve heaven? Why does God even reward the most repugnant?
If we die with supernatural faith, supernatural charity and supernatural grace in our souls then we can enter heaven like the Good Thief did. But if we were to donate 10 million dollars to the poor or to give up our life to save a child without any supernatural faith, supernatural charity and supernatural grace in our hearts, then we would not be able to enter heaven. Doing good to one’s neighbor does not give one any merit for heaven, unless the good that we do for our neighbor is done for God. St. Paul talks about the necessity of supernatural charity (loving God and loving neighbor for the love of God). To have supernatural charity within us requires that we also have supernatural faith in us. God bless you.
 
Doing good to one’s neighbor does not give one any merit for heaven, unless the good that we do for our neighbor is done for God
We meet again:) One day hopefully arguing from the same angle!..

Are you saying that non-Christians cannot be saved even if they do charitable works?

I was in the understanding that non-Christians can be saved. I have to say, for quickness, to back this up I have stolen this off a website, but I know this to be true:

Refers to St. Augustine’s Commentary on Psalm 136(137)

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org). — “Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.”, says Pope Benedict XVI.

The Pope made this affirmation at the general audience, commenting on a meditation written by St. Augustine (354-430).

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church online at the Vatican.

I have underlined the section that says a person who does good works - which are in truth because they are in charity - though maybe not a believer, and so unaware that He is doing God’s will, is anyway, and so can be saved.

This means after death.

God bless.

🙂
 
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ready:
Doing good to one’s neighbor does not give one any merit for heaven, unless the good that we do for our neighbor is done for God
…and a desire for transcendence is not the same as Biblical faith so doing good to one’s neighbour could hold supernatural value even if the person doing the charitable work in not aware of God as we know Him. It is up to God to judge because how could we know if a person has supernatural faith, charity and grace? Is it not better to be hopeful for all people who are doing good that any good that is done is being open to transcendence, is done in God, because God alone is good?

God bless.
 
We meet again:) One day hopefully arguing from the same angle!..

Are you saying that non-Christians cannot be saved even if they do charitable works?

I was in the understanding that non-Christians can be saved. I have to say, for quickness, to back this up I have stolen this off a website, but I know this to be true:

Refers to St. Augustine’s Commentary on Psalm 136(137)

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org). — “Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.”, says Pope Benedict XVI.

The Pope made this affirmation at the general audience, commenting on a meditation written by St. Augustine (354-430).

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church online at the Vatican.

I have underlined the section that says a person who does good works - which are in truth because they are in charity - though maybe not a believer, and so unaware that He is doing God’s will, is anyway, and so can be saved.

This means after death.

God bless.

🙂
As I said before, one must die with supernatural faith, supernatural charity and supernatural grace in one’s soul in order to be able to enter into heaven. If you doubt this statement, then I suggest that you take it to an apologist. But I can assure you that my statement will stand, as it is the Church’s traditional stand. God bless you.
 
…and a desire for transcendence is not the same as Biblical faith so doing good to one’s neighbour could hold supernatural value even if the person doing the charitable work in not aware of God as we know Him. It is up to God to judge because how could we know if a person has supernatural faith, charity and grace? Is it not better to be hopeful for all people who are doing good that any good that is done is being open to transcendence, is done in God, because God alone is good?

God bless.
If a person does a good act merely philanthropically, he has not done it supernaturally. And as I said before, only a supernatural good act can gain merit for heaven. If you doubt this, take what I have said to an apologist and read the Epistles. What I say is sound, traditional Catholic doctrine and will stand. No apologist who knows the true faith will deny that only supernatural acts can gain merit for heaven. God bless you.
 
Dear ready,

You suggested - which is why I politely questioned you - that doing acts of charity with no belief in God gains *no spiritual merit *- hence, why you used the word ‘philanthropically’, presumably - because without that faith in God the act contains no supernatural faith, grace or charity.

I challenged your statement with use of quotes by Benedict XVI and the current CCC that both *seem to *contradict what you *appear to be *claiming. If I am utilizing these most credible sources, why on earth would you point me to an apologist, as if my sources aren’t enough?!

I am not interested in asking an apologist to follow up on your remark, because, in the spirit of goodwill, I am asking you, in what I thought was polite discussion. When you post on a thread then surely you are expecting people to respond.

Maybe you are correct and I have misunderstood what you said. This is possible. But this is why I would like you to answer my questions! At the moment *it seems *as if you believe that what constitutes a supernatural act of faith, grace and charity is a lot stricter than what the current Church teaching is. I would like to know and be certain myself which is why I joined this thread. I join threads to share and deepen my knowledge.

I want to rectify this* possible error *in my communication with you by asking you to please clarify in simple terms if you think the current R.C Church teaching of 2014 is different to what you believe to be the ‘true faith’

Thank you and God bless.
 
As I said, a supernatural act of charity is one done for God. Charity = loving God and one’s neighbor for God. One receives supernatural charity at one’s baptism and when making an act of perfect contrition or after making a valid confession (after one has mortally sinned). Supernatural faith is that faith which one receives when he is baptized or accepts the faith. Supernatural grace is infused into us at baptism and increases every time we do an act of supernatural charity. God bless you.
 
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ready:
As I said, a supernatural act of charity is one done for God. Charity = loving God and one’s neighbor for God. One receives supernatural charity at one’s baptism and when making an act of perfect contrition or after making a valid confession (after one has mortally sinned). Supernatural faith is that faith which one receives when he is baptized or accepts the faith. Supernatural grace is infused into us at baptism and increases every time we do an act of supernatural charity. God bless you.
Dear ready,

Thank you for responding to my questions.

In simple terms I can now take your answer to my last question as a “yes”.

Take care and God bless.

Doesn’t bode well for all those poor souls who never got a chance to know about Christ.

But…Good News!: The R.C Church teaching is such:

**'It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.**’ - indicating that had some dead people known of baptism in life they may have gone for it.

For some time it has also been an accepted understanding that (some?) people will be asked by Jesus if they are sorry for their sins after they die ).

Because Jesus gave the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to Peter, and he to the Bishops of Rome, Catholics need have no fear to put all their trust in our Pope and our Church.

God is a God of mercy not only justice.🙂

Deep Friard Chips
 
Dear ready,

Thank you for responding to my questions.

In simple terms I can now take your answer to my last question as a “yes”.

Take care and God bless.

Doesn’t bode well for all those poor souls who never got a chance to know about Christ.

But…Good News!: The R.C Church teaching is such:

’It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.’ - indicating that had some dead people known of baptism in life they may have gone for it.

For some time it has also been an accepted understanding that (some?) people will be asked by Jesus if they are sorry for their sins after they die ).

Because Jesus gave the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to Peter, and he to the Bishops of Rome, Catholics need have no fear to put all their trust in our Pope and our Church.

God is a God of mercy not only justice.🙂

Deep Friard Chips
I had said: " Supernatural faith is that faith which one receives when he is baptized or accepts the faith." Of course, by “the faith” I mean the Roman Catholic faith, at least the basic things that every person must believe in before they die, such as the Incarnation, the Holy Trinity, the Redemption, the fact that God rewards the just and punishes the evil --those things that a person must accept on his deathbed if he wants to be saved… God bless you.
 
Luke 16: 15-16

15 And he [Jesus] said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Unless an unbaptized person is invincibly ignorant and dies with baptism of desire or baptism of blood, then he can not be saved. For a person to be invincibly ignorant and have baptism of desire he must be actively seeking God and His Will, must be sorry for all of his sins, and must be faithfully living in accordance with the natural law. How many Catholics are even following the natural law? Statistics say that 98% of Catholics believe in contraception! We can not assume that just because a person is not baptized that they are invincibly ignorant, for we have no idea who is invincibly ignorant or how many people are invincibly ignorant. Let us just keep sober and never forget Jesus’ words: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Dismas was sorry for his sins; gave fraternal correction to his fellow thief; with supernatural faith in Jesus confessed Jesus as Lord, that is, God: and he was rewarded for his faith and confession. He died with supernatural faith and supernatural charity and supernatural grace with his confession and baptism of desire (some theologians say he rather died with baptism of blood, but still he died with the supernatural virtues of faith and charity and with supernatural grace). With baptism of desire one tacitly accepts the faith: baptism, confession, the other sacraments, the Incarnation, the Holy Trinity, the Redemption, that God rewards the just and punishes the evil. An unbaptized person who dies with baptism of desire or of blood dies Catholic, though not at member of Christ’s Body – he still dies unified to Christ’s soul. I have read this in theology.

God bless you.
 
As I said, a supernatural act of charity is one done for God. Charity = loving God and one’s neighbor for God. One receives supernatural charity at one’s baptism and when making an act of perfect contrition or after making a valid confession (after one has mortally sinned). Supernatural faith is that faith which one receives when he is baptized or accepts the faith. Supernatural grace is infused into us at baptism and increases every time we do an act of supernatural charity. God bless you.
I need to correct something I said. One receives supernatural charity at one’s baptism, and when making an act of perfect contrition with the intention of making a confession to a priest ASAP, or after making a valid confession. If a person is invincibly ignorant and has baptism of desire, then it can be said that he tacitly would want to make a confession ASAP. God bless you.
 
Sometimes I know, believing in God, is very important. I have met plenty of nonbelievers that are far kinder than believers. I do not think faith alone gets you into heaven. It is easy to think the people who donate money to charities, devote their time to others or God will get into heaven. I wonder why Jesus forgave the thief on the cross beside him. Is it easy to assume the good people in society deserve heaven? Why does God even reward the most repugnant?
I like the way John of the Cross, a very mature 16th century believer, put it: “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love”. God, who judges by the heart, knows.
 
I like the way John of the Cross, a very mature 16th century believer, put it: “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love”. God, who judges by the heart, knows.
Simple and straightforward 🙂
 
You might be surprised at the similarities between the Catholic and Lutheran points of view.

As I understand it, both Catholics and Lutherans believe that justification itself is through faith alone, and that is sufficient. However, Catholics especially emphasize, and Lutherans agree, that a change in life resulting from faith is inevitable. And such a change will show itself in the form of works.

This makes sense. Let’s review James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 if a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 so also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

Notice what verse 17 says. It says without works, the faith is dead. If the faith is dead, then it isn’t only works but faith also that is lacking – and therefore leads to lack of justification. I think the gist of it, is that to tell someone to go eat well is not faith. It’s just running off at the mouth. A faithful person will take action someone in need rather than just mouth wishes for them. Jesus was a man of action and words both.

Also I read that faith – being abstract and not directly observable – can only be known to anybody other than the person who claims to have the faith, through works. And works can be verbal; for example a kind word to comfort someone who is grieving, is a work of mercy and therefore a “work.”

Other opinions are, of course, welcome. My main source for this is the “JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION, by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church,” from the Vatican website.

4.3 Justification by Faith and through Grace

25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

26.According to Lutheran understanding, God justifies sinners in faith alone (sola fide). In faith they place their trust wholly in their Creator and Redeemer and thus live in communion with him. God himself effects faith as he brings forth such trust by his creative word. Because God’s act is a new creation, it affects all dimensions of the person and leads to a life in hope and love. In the doctrine of “justification by faith alone,” a distinction but not a separation is made between justification itself and the renewal of one’s way of life that necessarily follows from justification and without which faith does not exist. Thereby the basis is indicated from which the renewal of life proceeds, for it comes forth from the love of God imparted to the person in justification. Justification and renewal are joined in Christ, who is present in faith.

27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it. The justification of sinners is forgiveness of sins and being made righteous by justifying grace, which makes us children of God. In justification the righteous receive from Christ faith, hope, and love and are thereby taken into communion with him.[14] This new personal relation to God is grounded totally on God’s graciousness and remains constantly dependent on the salvific and creative working of this gracious God, who remains true to himself, so that one can rely upon him. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession to which one could appeal over against God. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this renewal in faith, hope, and love is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes nothing to justification about which one could boast before God (Rom 3:27). [See Sources for section 4.3].
 
You might be surprised at the similarities between the Catholic and Lutheran points of view.

As I understand it, both Catholics and Lutherans believe that justification itself is through faith alone, and that is sufficient. However, Catholics especially emphasize, and Lutherans agree, that a change in life resulting from faith is inevitable. And such a change will show itself in the form of works.

This makes sense. Let’s review James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 if a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 so also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

Notice what verse 17 says. It says without works, the faith is dead. If the faith is dead, then it isn’t only works but faith also that is lacking – and therefore leads to lack of justification. I think the gist of it, is that to tell someone to go eat well is not faith. It’s just running off at the mouth. A faithful person will take action someone in need rather than just mouth wishes for them. Jesus was a man of action and words both.

Also I read that faith – being abstract and not directly observable – can only be known to anybody other than the person who claims to have the faith, through works. And works can be verbal; for example a kind word to comfort someone who is grieving, is a work of mercy and therefore a “work.”

Other opinions are, of course, welcome. My main source for this is the “JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION, by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church,” from the Vatican website.

4.3 Justification by Faith and through Grace

25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

26.According to Lutheran understanding, God justifies sinners in faith alone (sola fide). In faith they place their trust wholly in their Creator and Redeemer and thus live in communion with him. God himself effects faith as he brings forth such trust by his creative word. Because God’s act is a new creation, it affects all dimensions of the person and leads to a life in hope and love. In the doctrine of “justification by faith alone,” a distinction but not a separation is made between justification itself and the renewal of one’s way of life that necessarily follows from justification and without which faith does not exist. Thereby the basis is indicated from which the renewal of life proceeds, for it comes forth from the love of God imparted to the person in justification. Justification and renewal are joined in Christ, who is present in faith.

27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it. The justification of sinners is forgiveness of sins and being made righteous by justifying grace, which makes us children of God. In justification the righteous receive from Christ faith, hope, and love and are thereby taken into communion with him.[14] This new personal relation to God is grounded totally on God’s graciousness and remains constantly dependent on the salvific and creative working of this gracious God, who remains true to himself, so that one can rely upon him. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession to which one could appeal over against God. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this renewal in faith, hope, and love is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes nothing to justification about which one could boast before God (Rom 3:27). [See Sources for section 4.3].
I had this exact discussion with a Lutheran friend of mine. I know it had an impact on her–though since her husband is a deceased Lutheran minister, I feel unsure of her willingness to convert–no matter what she feels deep inside. We both agreed that faith is important–but where there is true faith, good deeds must necessarily follow if one’s faith is alive. I sometimes think that our protestant brothers and sisters have more in common with us than we think—and that often we argue over simple verbage.
 
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