Judging the Church by its fruit.

[scylla]

This is a bad road to go down as all it leads to is this…

My Church is better than yours because it does this…

or even worse,

My Church is better than yours because yours does this…

Which I don’t think is very charitable.

Judging by men’s opinions can lead to the conclusion that parallels this…

I know a guy in jail who is a Bible Christian who follows the Bible exclusively, maybe the Bible is wrong as he ended up killing someone. Did he follow the Bible or himself?

It is much better to follow the truth and not judge.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[jsussvsus]

E.E.N.S.:

Not only that, but the Catholic Church also is the only Church to constantly, without waiver, hold firm to the sanctitiy of life!

Hi All
I beg to differ, the church where I go also holds constantly, without waiver, firm to the sanctity of life. So your not alone on this.
Thanks

 

[Eden]

What Church is that? Your profile says only “Christian”.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Angainor:

I know there are many good people who are Catholic. What is not clear in my mind is if those people are good Christians in spite of the institution of Catholicism instead of because of it.

**I knew a Lutheran who was a good Christian because he was Lutheran, not in spite of the fact he followed the erroneous teachings of Luther. So there is one good Lutheran that I can personally vouch for. **

 

[Swiss_Guard]

jsussvsus:

Hi All
I beg to differ, the church where I go also holds constantly, without waiver, firm to the sanctity of life. So your not alone on this.
Thanks

There are many Fundamentalists who uphold the sanctity of life. I used to do sidewalk counselling outside abortion mills and I was impressed by the good works done by Fundamentalist Bible Christians helping to save the lives of the defenseless and innocent babies.

---

BTW, I never did get an answer to my question regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

---

15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (emphasis mine)

St. Paul clearly says in Sacred Scripture to hold fast to everything he teaches, not just the written word. How do Bible Christians reconcile this passage with sola Scriptura?

---

**Still waiting for an answer… **

 

[jsussvsus]

QUOTE=Swiss Guard
There are many Fundamentalists who uphold the sanctity of life. I used to do sidewalk counselling outside abortion mills and I was impressed by the good works done by Fundamentalist Bible Christians helping to save the lives of the defenseless and innocent babies.

BTW, I never did get an answer to my question regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:15.Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle.

St. Paul clearly says in Sacred Scripture to hold fast to everything he teaches, not just the written word. How do Bible Christians reconcile this passage with sola Scriptura?
Still waiting for an answer…

Hi
It is very clear that Paul is telling them to hold true to the traditions that ye’’ Have been" (past tense) taught. It doesn’t say to hold true to every so called tradition you will hear in the future.
The traditions that Paul taught are in the scriptures.
Thanks.

 

[jaz1976]

Angainor:

An old testament prophet was the interpreter and supernaturally enlightened herald sent by Yahweh to communicate His will and designs to Israel. Catholicism puts itself forward as the interpreter and supernaturally enlightened herald sent by Jesus to communicate His will and designs to the Christendom.

I think it is perfectly appropriate to apply Matthew 7 to Catholicism. It is taking on the role of Prophet. To try to determine if it is a false Prophet, one should look to its fruits.

Once again, I disagree with your use of this verse. Christ is clearly teaching about individuals here. What you are doing is taking a verse that fits your agenda and bending it to fit. I think anyone would agree that the verses in Matthew 13: 24-30 make much more sense in this situation. Tell me if you disagree with me.

God Bless

 

[allhers]

Angainor:

It seems too easy just to show up to Church to find out when to eat fish or whatever then proceed to go through the motions.

Maybe my impression is wrong, that’s why I started the thread.

Your impression is wrong, thats for sure, is that what you thought we did at Mass?

 

[allhers]

gelsbern:

With the clergy scandals, I don’t think it’s a good idea to talk about the “fruits” of the catholic church.

I noticed at the bottom of this that your signature said-“currently not in union with the Bishop of Rome.”

I know Protestants that have done the same thing to children, does that mean that all of them are like that?

 

[jaz1976]

jsussvsus:

Hi
It is very clear that Paul is telling them to hold true to the traditions that ye’’ Have been" (past tense) taught. It doesn’t say to hold true to every so called tradition you will hear in the future.
The traditions that Paul taught are in the scriptures.
Thanks.

Jsussvsus,

I think you are in the wrong thread here. However, I would be glad to clear up your misunderstanding. What Paul is referring to is what Catholics call the “Deposits of Faith”. If Paul was teaching what was in Scripture at that time you would have to subtract 85% of the New Testament. And the fact that there was no New Testament at the time (we don’t get the NT Cannon until the Catholic Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit gave it to us in the late 4th century) really causes your theory of Sola Scriptura to sink. The bottom line is that Tradition has always been a part of Christianity. I would like to see anywhere in the Scriptures where Jesus or anybody condemns all traditions.

God Bless

 

[Angainor]

jaz1976:

Once again, I disagree with your use of this verse. Christ is clearly teaching about individuals here. What you are doing is taking a verse that fits your agenda and bending it to fit. I think anyone would agree that the verses in Matthew 13: 24-30 make much more sense in this situation. Tell me if you disagree with me.

God Bless

Yes Matthew 13 applies. I still think Matthew 7 can be applied as well. I also have other concers. I started a [thread=64118]new thread[/thread].

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

Didi:

What about all the Catholic hospitals?

What about St. Vincent de Paul Societies that help the poor and hungry every day?

What about Catholic Charities that help counsel women in crisis pregnancy?

What about all the Catholic missionaries throughout the world?

What about the Catholic chaplains that serve in the military?

What about those who pray for the needy, lonely, depressed, hungry, etc., during their holy hours of Eucharistic adoration?

What about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered every day, maybe every hour, somewhere on the earth with prayers for the whole world?

I agree!!!

What about the life of mother Theresa of Culcatta?

What about the life of St. Francis!

Church scandals is just about .00000001% of the total goodness that catholics did in this world

 

[nan]

Viktor - I know you didn’t mean to do it, but your last line makes it sound like you think the scandals are a good thing the church has done for the world. I’m glad the current situation has come to light , in the hope it will be rectified. I also have to confess that my 1st thought after reading the title of the topic was the same as the poster found offensive by some. I just wouldn’t have posted it - does that make me the more tactful one - or the wimpier one?

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

nan:

Viktor - I know you didn’t mean to do it, but your last line makes it sound like you think the scandals are a good thing the church has done for the world. I’m glad the current situation has come to light , in the hope it will be rectified. I also have to confess that my 1st thought after reading the title of the topic was the same as the poster found offensive by some. I just wouldn’t have posted it - does that make me the more tactful one - or the wimpier one?

Oh im sorry. thats not what i meant. im sorry im not that good in english. what i mean is these scandals were nothing if we are going to compare it to the goodness that catholics brought in this world. :banghead: how stupid of me!

 

[deb1]

viktor aleksndr:

Oh im sorry. thats not what i meant. im sorry im not that good in english. what i mean is these scandals were nothing if we are going to compare it to the goodness that catholics brought in this world. :banghead: how stupid of me!

I understood what you meant. Don’t feel stupid. At least you can make yourself understood in another language. I can only speak English, so I admire anyone with the intellligence to learn two.

 

[jsussvsus]

jaz1976:

Jsussvsus,

I think you are in the wrong thread here. However, I would be glad to clear up your misunderstanding. What Paul is referring to is what Catholics call the “Deposits of Faith”. If Paul was teaching what was in Scripture at that time you would have to subtract 85% of the New Testament. And the fact that there was no New Testament at the time (we don’t get the NT Cannon until the Catholic Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit gave it to us in the late 4th century) really causes your theory of Sola Scriptura to sink. The bottom line is that Tradition has always been a part of Christianity. I would like to see anywhere in the Scriptures where Jesus or anybody condemns all traditions.

God Bless

Hi
First of all I think it’s funny how you will ask an off topic question and then when we answer it you tell us we are in the wrong thread.
There is no misunderstanding here. I did not say that Paul was teaching them what was in scripture, I know that the Bible had not yet been put together. Do catholics think that there was nothing written down for four hundred years and then all of sudden the catholic church decided to write the Bible? I hope not. Paul writtings occured throughout his ministry. They were then compiled later in the forth century. There is another difference between you and I, You say that it was the catholic church that gave us the scriptures and I say that it was God.
The scriptures don’t condemn all tradition but it does warn us not to follow traditions of man instead of the word of God, Math 15:3,
15:6, Mark 7:9, Col 2:8.
Thanks.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

jsussvsus:

Swiss Guard:

Thanks for your reply. I was always interested in knowing how people who believe sola Scriptura could reconcile this passage with their belief. I see now that sola Scriptura adherents make this passage say what they want it to say.

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St. Paul says hold on to what you have been taught. You can’t hold on to something you don’t have. St. Paul not only says word but our epistle. Using your logic, we wouldn’t have to hold true to any future epistle of St. Paul, since you claim he’s not talking about the future.

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You also claim St. Paul’s teachings are all in Scripture. St. Paul mentions word, not just his word, but any word. This is made clear by the fact he doesn’t say our word but does say our epistle.

---

Further, St. Paul is equating oral tradition with written tradition. Yet you claim that oral tradition is not be followed, which is a clear contradiction of this passage.

---

Thanks for proving that Bible Christians conform the Bible to their beliefs rather than conforming their beliefs to what the Bible really teaches.

 

[byzmelkite]

Angainor:

Catholics commonly say to Protestants, “with all the denominations out there, each interpreting the scripture their own way, how do you know which is right?” The bible gives us a way to know:
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. Matthew 7:16-17
I wonder how Catholicism’s fruit should be judged. Europe comes to mind. It has a long history of Catholicism.

Jesus said wheat and tares would be in the church until the second coming. I am a convert form the southern Baptist church and for many years, I searched, looking at different denominations. The truth is that there is plenty of rottenness to go around, no matter if the Church is Catholic or Protestant, liberal or conservative, New age or fundamentalist.

It was either Augustine or Luther or both who once said, “The Church is like Noah’s Ark. The stench inside would be unbearable if it weren’t for the flood outside.” As terrible as things are in Christ’s true Church and in the protestant sects, its even worse out in the world.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Angainor:

Catholics commonly say to Protestants, “with all the denominations out there, each interpreting the scripture their own way, how do you know which is right?” The bible gives us a way to know:
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. Matthew 7:16-17
I wonder how Catholicism’s fruit should be judged. Europe comes to mind. It has a long history of Catholicism.

Europe is also the birthplace of the Reformation.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Angainor:

These are all very good things, to be sure, as well as things like Boy’s Town.

These are all examples of great good in the physical world. I wonder how good Catholicism does for the layity’s spiritual health. I wonder because I get the impression there are vast numbers of people who call themselves Catholic but appear to be spirtually asleep (present company excepted of course). I always figured this was because of the top down structure of Catholicism. It seems too easy just to show up to Church to find out when to eat fish or whatever then proceed to go through the motions.

Maybe my impression is wrong, that’s why I started the thread.

You are correct. Your impression is wrong. As for your comment about Catholics being spiritually “asleep” - perhaps you should re-read Mt 7:1-4:

[1] "Judge not, that you be not judged.
[2] For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
[3] Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
[4] Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye?

I’m fairly certain that there are a lot of “sleeping” christians in every church.