Judging the Church by its fruit.

[NotWorthy]

Robert in SD:

You are correct. Your impression is wrong. As for your comment about Catholics being spiritually “asleep” - perhaps you should re-read Mt 7:1-4:

I’m fairly certain that there are a lot of “sleeping” christians in every church.

Yes, there are “sleeping” Christians everywhere, including the Catholic Church. I’d been “sleeping” for twenty years before “waking up” (insert your own Rip Van Winkle comment here). I think it is common in the Catholic Church wherever people don’t understand the beauty and rich tradition of the Mass, which is our center of worship of the Lord. As we learn why we do what we do, we begin to appreciate how wonderful God’s love is, and we begin to “wake up”.

I’ve seen an awakening in my whole diocese here in Southeast Texas, and I marvel at the holiness in people’s souls. So, yes, some Catholics are “asleep” but, yes, we don’t own a monopoly on this lethargy.

NotWorthy

 

[jaz1976]

jsussvsus:

Hi
First of all I think it’s funny how you will ask an off topic question and then when we answer it you tell us we are in the wrong thread.

First of all, I never asked a question to be answered so I have no clue as to what you are talking about here. Maybe my comment that I made about being in the wrong thread upset you. I am sorry. I meant to be a funny jab. I really do apologize about the comment.

jsussvsus:

There is no misunderstanding here. I did not say that Paul was teaching them what was in scripture, I know that the Bible had not yet been put together. Do catholics think that there was nothing written down for four hundred years and then all of sudden the catholic church decided to write the Bible? I hope not. Paul writtings occured throughout his ministry. They were then compiled later in the forth century. There is another difference between you and I, You say that it was the catholic church that gave us the scriptures and I say that it was God.
The scriptures don’t condemn all tradition but it does warn us not to follow traditions of man instead of the word of God, Math 15:3,
15:6, Mark 7:9, Col 2:8.
Thanks.

Now we have a problem here. No, I never said that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible. I said that “the Catholic Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit” gave us the Bible. And if you know the history of the Bible there is no way you could disagree.

Once again, sorry about he jab.

 

[gelsbern]

allhers:

I noticed at the bottom of this that your signature said-“currently not in union with the Bishop of Rome.”

I know Protestants that have done the same thing to children, does that mean that all of them are like that?

If the topic was about the protestant fruits, I would have said the same thing. I believe in equal opportunity poking. In this case, it was about the fruits of the catholic church which by the way is one of the reasons I am not currently in union with Rome. They need to clean house, get rid of their rainbow sashers and pink mafia members and then when they want REAL men to come back to the priesthood, I might consider coming back into the fold.

 

[Mickey]

gelsbern:

They need to clean house, get rid of their rainbow sashers and pink mafia members and then when they want REAL men to come back to the priesthood, I might consider coming back into the fold.

That was uncharitable gelsbern.
The Catholic Church should not be judged by sinners within the Church who refer to themselves as Catholic.

 

[gelsbern]

It’s possible you’re right, but I find it hard to view the truth as uncharitable. Since the topic is the fruits of the church, let’s look at em. Reduced vocations,Reduced attendance at Mass, People who are ashamed to admit they are catholic, Clergy Scandal of all kinds, Churches closing down left and right, Liturgical Abuses, Women claiming to be ordained, Nuns without habits, Millions upon millions being paid out for lawsuit settlements, rules of the church mocked or ignored by priest, abortionists, and adulterous people, and the list goes on and on.

Yes, in the PAST the RCC Church did many wonderous things and had glorious fruits, but in the last 100 years, something has gone seriously wrong. The fruit has become seriously bruised if not rotten. And there comes a point that even the freshest fruit expires when it becomes so old that one can only read about it in history books.

The question ALL faithful catholics need to be asking is WHY.

Please don’t take this as an attack on the church, I may be a bith harsh because I am angry at what the Catholic Church has become, and miss what it once was. I thank God that there are scattered segments of the RCC who do try to do as much good as they can. Mr. Keating here, the people who run EWTN, and several other small groups who have a true love of the Church and a ardent desire to be holy.

Unfortunately all the good that they do is obscured by what the world sees, and scattered segments does not equal the Church as a whole, and right now, as sad as it is to say, the Church as a whole has a lot of rotten fruit. It makes me cry every night when I say my prayers, and it weighs heavy on my heart that it has become that way.

I pray for Pope Benendict constantly, because in him, I see a glimmer of hope for the restoration of the church to something close to it’s former level of holiness. I just hope God let’s me live long enough to see it so that maybe, just maybe, I might be able to come back to her arms and call my self a catholic in union with Rome.

 

[stillsearching]

gelsbern:

It’s possible you’re right, but I find it hard to view the truth as uncharitable. Since the topic is the fruits of the church, let’s look at em. Reduced vocations,Reduced attendance at Mass, People who are ashamed to admit they are catholic, Clergy Scandal of all kinds, Churches closing down left and right, Liturgical Abuses, Women claiming to be ordained, Nuns without habits, Millions upon millions being paid out for lawsuit settlements, rules of the church mocked or ignored by priest, abortionists, and adulterous people, and the list goes on and on.

Yes, in the PAST the RCC Church did many wonderous things and had glorious fruits, but in the last 100 years, something has gone seriously wrong. The fruit has become seriously bruised if not rotten. And there comes a point that even the freshest fruit expires when it becomes so old that one can only read about it in history books.

The question ALL faithful catholics need to be asking is WHY.

Please don’t take this as an attack on the church, I may be a bith harsh because I am angry at what the Catholic Church has become, and miss what it once was. I thank God that there are scattered segments of the RCC who do try to do as much good as they can. Mr. Keating here, the people who run EWTN, and several other small groups who have a true love of the Church and a ardent desire to be holy.

Unfortunately all the good that they do is obscured by what the world sees, and scattered segments does not equal the Church as a whole, and right now, as sad as it is to say, the Church as a whole has a lot of rotten fruit. It makes me cry every night when I say my prayers, and it weighs heavy on my heart that it has become that way.

I pray for Pope Benendict constantly, because in him, I see a glimmer of hope for the restoration of the church to something close to it’s former level of holiness. I just hope God let’s me live long enough to see it so that maybe, just maybe, I might be able to come back to her arms and call my self a catholic in union with Rome.

The Real Presence of the Living Christ never changes within the Catholic Church, no matter the level of personal sin within it’s members. therefore, for all practical purposes, what you just said to Catholics, is that Christ is a rotten fruit and that you are not in union with Him. Interesting. Also, interesting is the level of insult that can be leveled at the Real Presence on the internet. Never occurred to me before that people feel more comfortable within it’s impersonal incognito space and therefore the Proverbs statements about talking too much are ignored while on the Internet. A person who otherwise would exercise holiness and refrain from making statements such as yours suddenly throws all the Wisdom and Proverb books and many of the Lord’s statements right out the window before they hit the enter key.

 

[gelsbern]

stillsearching:

The Real Presence of the Living Christ never changes within the Catholic Church, no matter the level of personal sin within it’s members. therefore, for all practical purposes, what you just said to Catholics, is that Christ is a rotten fruit and that you are not in union with Him. Interesting. Also, interesting is the level of insult that can be leveled at the Real Presence on the internet. Never occurred to me before that people feel more comfortable within it’s impersonal incognito space and therefore the Proverbs statements about talking too much are ignored while on the Internet. A person who otherwise would exercise holiness and refrain from making statements such as yours suddenly throws all the Wisdom and Proverb books and many of the Lord’s statements right out the window before they hit the enter key.

You are twisting my words and putting words into my mouth, which is very dishonest, and I believe a sin against the 8th commandment. I said nothing about the real presence. You will be hard pressed to find someone who adores the real presence more that I, but remember the real presence is just as real within the SST, the SSPX, the Old Catholics and the PNCC as it is in the RCC. And when it comes down to brass tacks I found it is much more beneficial for my soul to be around people who are holy and reverent but schismatic rather than people who are in union but irreverent and unholy.

 

[stillsearching]

gelsbern:

You are twisting my words and putting words into my mouth, which is very dishonest, and I believe a sin against the 8th commandment. I said nothing about the real presence. You will be hard pressed to find someone who adores the real presence more that I, but remember the real presence is just as real within the SST, the SSPX, the Old Catholics and the PNCC as it is in the RCC. And when it comes down to brass tacks I found it is much more beneficial for my soul to be around people who are holy and reverent but schismatic rather than people who are in union but irreverent and unholy.

You should preface this with a statement that the whereabouts of the Real Presence is your personal opinion only. When you attack the RCC, you attack the Real Presence. To say you said nothing about it is ridiculous. You claimed the church was unholy, and condemned it. When you do that, my dear Gelsbern, you ARE talkeing about the Real Presence of Christ whether you said so or not. All Catholics are aware that our Eucharist, which all of the Church is centered around, is the Real Presence of Christ. So when you then say the Church is all messed up, is unholy, has no fruits, obviously you are talking about the Real Presence. Why argue it?

 

[Mickey]

gelsbern:

It’s possible you’re right, but I find it hard to view the truth as uncharitable. Since the topic is the fruits of the church, let’s look at em. Reduced vocations,Reduced attendance at Mass, People who are ashamed to admit they are catholic, Clergy Scandal of all kinds, Churches closing down left and right, Liturgical Abuses, Women claiming to be ordained, Nuns without habits, Millions upon millions being paid out for lawsuit settlements, rules of the church mocked or ignored by priest, abortionists, and adulterous people, and the list goes on and on.

Yes, in the PAST the RCC Church did many wonderous things and had glorious fruits, but in the last 100 years, something has gone seriously wrong. The fruit has become seriously bruised if not rotten. And there comes a point that even the freshest fruit expires when it becomes so old that one can only read about it in history books.

The question ALL faithful catholics need to be asking is WHY.

Please don’t take this as an attack on the church, I may be a bith harsh because I am angry at what the Catholic Church has become, and miss what it once was. I thank God that there are scattered segments of the RCC who do try to do as much good as they can. Mr. Keating here, the people who run EWTN, and several other small groups who have a true love of the Church and a ardent desire to be holy.

Unfortunately all the good that they do is obscured by what the world sees, and scattered segments does not equal the Church as a whole, and right now, as sad as it is to say, the Church as a whole has a lot of rotten fruit. It makes me cry every night when I say my prayers, and it weighs heavy on my heart that it has become that way.

I pray for Pope Benendict constantly, because in him, I see a glimmer of hope for the restoration of the church to something close to it’s former level of holiness. I just hope God let’s me live long enough to see it so that maybe, just maybe, I might be able to come back to her arms and call my self a catholic in union with Rome.

Shame on you. What you have posted here is the rotten fruit. You are judging the Truth based on bad apples within the Church. That does not equal the “Church as a whole”. That’s what Luther did, and look what happened. The Truth doesn’t change or diminish based on the perversions of a group or groups of disillusioned people–or from what you may see or hear in the media. These people who twist doctrine are not Catholic.
My experience is nothing but devout and pious individuals living their Catholic faith as true witnesses to Christ. So who’s truth is correct gelsbern–mine or yours? I still see the movement and influence of the Holy Spirit and the glorious fruits of this Apostolic Church.
Yes, I am offended. I do take this as a very personal attack on the Church. If you care to write harsh things because your passions have made you angry and bitter–it would be better to keep it to yourself. I now question the charity of your newly formed synod if one of it’s Deacons can come out in attack mode against the 2000 year old One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And as the previous poster has stated: When you attack the Church, you attack the Eucharist. May God have mercy on your soul!

 

[Eden]

Reduced vocations? Vocations have been on the rise:

theanchoressonline.com/2005/06/02/priestly-vocations-on-the-rise-in-seattle-yeah-seattle/

beliefnet.com/story/92/story_9276_1.html

catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Homiletic/2002-04/noting.html

rc.net/africa/catholicafrica/context.htm

indcatholicnews.com/australi.html

zenit.org/english/archive/9808/zw980830.html#a3

omiworld.org/Informazioni.asp?L=1&I=30

This was just the first page on Google about vocations on the rise in the Church.

 

[Eden]

Here are lots of nuns - wearing habits.

The sisters are expecting so many postulants in Fall 2005 - among them two young American girls - that a new house will soon become necessary." Source:
institute-christ-king.org/AdorersRoyalHeart.htm

This new Monastery (which provided our Community with “room to grow”) is now - only three years after our relocation - filled to capacity, with a total of thirty-three cloistered nuns and eight extern sisters. Source: olamshrine.com/olam/nun_history.htm

In 2004 there are over 20,000 Poor Clares living in over 76 countries throughout the world. Source: poorclare.com/

 

[Eden]

Regarding Church attendance:

While attendance at Mass has been down, church membership is on the rise, and Gallup polling in 1999 suggested a majority of American Roman Catholics believe the church should not have the final say on issues like birth control and abortion. But at the same time, some scholars say, there has been a resurgent interest in parts of the Catholic community, particularly among some young Catholics, in greater unity within the Catholic faith, a greater sense of commitment, and a stricter adherence to the church’s teachings. Some argue that trend has practical benefits.

Source: rickross.com/reference/opus/opus2.html

As a matter of fact, more and more young people, who had never before experienced the profoundness and the beauty of the traditional liturgy, are deeply touched by their first contact with it and everywhere are requesting that permission to celebrate this liturgy in public should be given more generously. This is exactly what our Holy Father, John Paul II, has asked our Shepherds to do. It is very convincing to see how the apostolates of the Institute and other communities where the traditional Mass is celebrated are frequented by young families and youth. All of them are attracted by the force of tradition itself. It is the Institute’s aim to give as many people as possible the opportunity to know the classical Roman Liturgy because the people have the experience that it strengthens their faith, it helps them in their struggle for a Christian life in the world of today, and it always attaches them more to the Church and to the Holy Father.

Source: institute-christ-king.org/heavenly.html

 

[gelsbern]

stillsearching:

You should preface this with a statement that the whereabouts of the Real Presence is your personal opinion only.

It is also the opinion of Rome and several Eastern churches too. If it were just my opinion, then I would not belong to the SST, but since it has been backed by valid apostolic succession in the bishops which means VALID sacraments that even Rome says are valid, then I am assured in the true presence within the sacraments confected by the clergy of the SST.

When you attack the RCC, you attack the Real Presence. To say you said nothing about it is ridiculous. You claimed the church was unholy, and condemned it. When you do that, my dear Gelsbern, you ARE talkeing about the Real Presence of Christ whether you said so or not. All Catholics are aware that our Eucharist, which all of the Church is centered around, is the Real Presence of Christ. So when you then say the Church is all messed up, is unholy, has no fruits, obviously you are talking about the Real Presence. Why argue it?

Again I never attacked the RCC, never condemned the church, and never claimed that the church was unholy,. What I did do, and you will see this if you eally read what I wrote instead of what you think I wrote, I spoke harshly about PEOPLE in the church, but not the church herself, there is a HUGE difference.

Please do not twist my words, I have a truel love for the Catholic church, but that includes ALL catholics, not just for Rome, but I do love Rome too, it just needs to take a look and clean house and get rid of the PEOPLE who, through their misdeeds are driving away parishoners in droves.

This is my last response on this thread, as I find it ludicris to try and refute someone who only sees what they want to see…

God Bless

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Angainor:

Catholics commonly say to Protestants, “with all the denominations out there, each interpreting the scripture their own way, how do you know which is right?” The bible gives us a way to know:By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. Matthew 7:16-17

I wonder how Catholicism’s fruit should be judged. Europe comes to mind. It has a long history of Catholicism.

Just about anywhere except those countries - the USA, Australia, New Zealand, parts of Asia or Africa - where Christianity of rather recent growth, would be worth a look.​

What is very unconvincing, is the suggestion that it has not been tried. This defences raises two difficulties, perhaps three:

1. The pre-medieval cultures of Rome & Byzantium thought they were trying it: were they pagans all along, without realising it ? Granted, they did some foul things - but how is this to be interpreted ? A Christian Emperor who has the sons of his predecessor castrated in order to stop them having sons who might challenge him in the future, is not being very Christ-like; neither is a bishop who has his enemies blinded, as St. Martin III did - but they thought that they were Christians; their contemporaries thought so - and we too do foul things: does this mean we are not Christians ?

There is also the ethical problem - past generations had no qualms about ripping French regicides apart with wild horses, burning heretics, disembowelling English traitors, breaking people on the wheel, or torturing rebels to death. These activities would now be regarded as morally problematic. So, is a ruler who rips out the tongues of blasphemers, boils poisoners alive, and saws the heads off rebels, acting as the Christian he thinks he is, or as a monster of cruelty ? By the standards of his time, boiling poisoners may seem wholly consistent with the Gospel - today, it would probably not. So who is the Christian here ? - that, is the problem.

There is a subsidiary problem: many of those regarded as saints have done things which no Christian would dream of doing now - what does this say about what Christians regarded as holy actions ? Part of the answer, perhaps, lies in the diversity of ways in which Christians have pictured Christ & God: there has been Christ the Man of Sorrows, the Victor, the King, the Priest, the Wounded Healer, the Eucharistic Victim, & many more. If Christ hates heretics - then burning them alive is no big deal. 17th century writers - de Montfort, for instance - seem to imagine Heaven as a sort of Versailles, with Jesus being, like the Dauphin or like Louis XIV, far too exalted for us ordinary folk to approach. More recently, there has been Christ the Worker.
What does seem clear, is that no age is more finally right in all respects than another.

According as Christ is pictured, so do His followers act.

1. If Christians who do cruel things are not trying to be Christians (in the eyes of their later critics) - where is the Church ? The trouble with us, is that we are all sinners: and if being sinful is to stop us being Christian, then the Church ceases to be a visible body; one is left with a “hyper-Donatist” ecclesiology, in which one ceases to be Christian the moment one ceases to be perfectly holy. OTO, if one can be a sinner and a Christian - what sins, if any (& why?) - are incompatible with being Christian ? If it is not a contradiction to speak of a Christian soldier, or of a Christian executioner - why is it a contradiction to speak of a Christian usurer or adulterer or thief or prostitute ?

ISTM that your question raises a lot of issues: about ethics, reason, ecclesiology, Christian self-understanding Do you have the answers ?

And what notions of God do the answers people give to these questions presuppose ?

As for the good qualities of the Church - any church: they would count for something if the Church’s constancy in this matter were of her own making. It’s not; for if the Church has good qualities at all, they come to her solely from Christ. She can never boast of any good in her, simply because the good, in her, is not from her in the first place. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

E.E.N.S.:

Not only that, but the Catholic Church also is the only Church to constantly, without waiver, hold firm to the sanctitiy of life!

That would count for something if the Church’s constancy in this matter were of her own making. It’s not; for if the Church has good qualities at all, they come to her solely from Christ. She can never boast of any good in her, simply because the good, in her, is not from her in the first place. ​

 

[Philthy]

Angainor:

Catholics commonly say to Protestants, “with all the denominations out there, each interpreting the scripture their own way, how do you know which is right?” The bible gives us a way to know:By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. Matthew 7:16-17

I wonder how Catholicism’s fruit should be judged. Europe comes to mind. It has a long history of Catholicism.

Such speculation is a clear indication that you lack humility, lack a perspective on the breadth of the Catholic Church, and that you don’t know how to apply biblical passages to real world situations.

Is this thread of yours good fruit?

Phil

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Angainor:

I mentioned Europe because it has a long history of Catholicism and I figured it might be a good “test case”.

It’s had a Christianity of some sort, in some degree or other, since St. Paul.​

One could always ask what the fruits of monotheism are - that would give you another 500 years to play with, if not more.

It is difficulty to see the history of war, massacre, oppression, misunderstanding, and worse, of which there has been such an abundance in “Christian Europe”, as intended by Christ. That’s not the only element of the picture - but it is certainly part of it, and ignoring it won’t make it vanish or cease to be a fact.

Whitewashed history is not a good idea - airbrushing what is inconvenient out of the corporate past should be left to Communist propagandists. ##

 

[stillsearching]

gelsbern:

It is also the opinion of Rome and several Eastern churches too. If it were just my opinion, then I would not belong to the SST, but since it has been backed by valid apostolic succession in the bishops which means VALID sacraments that even Rome says are valid, then I am assured in the true presence within the sacraments confected by the clergy of the SST.

Again I never attacked the RCC, never condemned the church, and never claimed that the church was unholy,. What I did do, and you will see this if you eally read what I wrote instead of what you think I wrote, I spoke harshly about PEOPLE in the church, but not the church herself, there is a HUGE difference.

Please do not twist my words, I have a truel love for the Catholic church, but that includes ALL catholics, not just for Rome, but I do love Rome too, it just needs to take a look and clean house and get rid of the PEOPLE who, through their misdeeds are driving away parishoners in droves.

This is my last response on this thread, as I find it ludicris to try and refute someone who only sees what they want to see…

God Bless

You say you spoke harshly about people, not the Church. Excuse me? What does that mean? The Church is made up of people, both living and dead, mystical and corporal. Of course you spoke harshly about people not the Church. To seperate the people from the Church would leave you only critiquing Church architecture. No, you did attack the Church when you attacked the people. Why obfuscate this issue? I refute untruth and your reply was equally untrue. When you attack the people in the Church, you attack the Real Presence. When you claim the people are rotten, you are claiming the Real Presence is rotten. You did not pick out a few examples and name them- what you said was the church. What is the point of even trying to develop a new synod when you obviously have such contempt for Christ you call Him rotten, unholy, and fruitless?

 

[rjs1]

Judging by long term fruits gives an interesting result.
The Catholic countries are not ideal. Many of them appear to have lost a lot of their faith.
However on a larger view the Protestant countries are more markedly anti-Christian in morals and behaviour.
The countries in Europe where protestantism began are now almost totally secular. They, eg Holland, practice widespread euthanasia and abortion. They have been the encouragers of drug use and they have unbelievably pornographic tv and movies.
The only Church that has, in its official teachings, without fail upheld the sanctity of life and marriage, has been the Catholic Church.