Judging the Fate We Face

[CMatt25]

Under normal means, it’s not possible. Under certain extrodinary means, it’s possible to make a perfect act of contrition just prior to death, and be saved.

Do you believe someone who has slipped into unconsciousness can make a perfect act of contrition? Or is it too late for them at that point?

 

[regression]

Do you believe someone who has slipped into unconsciousness can make a perfect act of contrition? Or is it too late for them at that point?

I don’t know if you were just asking crazzeto, but if you were to ask me, my response would be, “I have no idea”. All we can do is trust in the mercy of God.

 

[CMatt25]

In either case, going to confession or extraordinary means, God forgives us. In either case we rely on God, whether it be through the ministry of His Church or “going directly to God”, as you put it.

Ok so you’re just saying not to take the chance on God’s mercy at the very end without the sacraments?

 

[CMatt25]

I don’t know if you were just asking crazzeto, but if you were to ask me, my response would be, “I have no idea”. All we can do is trust in the mercy of God.

No I’m asking anyonme who wants to answer. Thank you Regression. .

 

[regression]

Ok so you’re just saying not to take the chance on God’s mercy at the very end without the sacraments?

I’m just saying I don’t want to stand before God and have Him say, “I gave you these opportunities to receive grace through the sacraments, why did you not avail yourself of them”? What effect that has on my ultimate destination, I don’t know.

God gave us the sacraments and I take advantage of them. We grow closer to God and receive grace through them. Why anyone would not want to avail themselves of God’s grace, I have no idea.

 

[CMatt25]

I’m just saying I don’t want to stand before God and have Him say, “I gave you these opportunities to receive grace through the sacraments, why did you not avail yourself of them”? What effect that has on my ultimate destination, I don’t know.

God gave us the sacraments and I take advantage of them. We grow closer to God and receive grace through them. Why anyone would not want to avail themselves of God’s grace, I have no idea.

Yeah I guess it just comes down again to what people believe. How grace is received. What different Christians believe about the Church.

 

[crazzeto]

Are you saying we can’t rely on God for our salvation?

Where do you get that from? I don’t think that’s what I said, I said that there are certain extrodinary cases where if someone walks away from God, they can make a perfect repentance if you will (perfect act of contrition) and still be saved. Even though they commit mortal sin against God. I think what I said is quite contrary to what you posted.

There is however, no such thing as universal salvation. Not everyone gets to heaven, more over there is also no absolute assurance of salvation. You can however, be absolutly assured that your judge is a perfect judge, and will judge you perfectly based upon your heart, something no mortal man can do.

This is why I posted earlier, even though a man might commit an objectivly evil act (murder, abortion), we can not judge them to be in hell when they die. Our faith is all about repentance, mercy and forgiveness. God will give you every oppertunity to reach out for his open arms.

 

[crazzeto]

Do you believe someone who has slipped into unconsciousness can make a perfect act of contrition? Or is it too late for them at that point?

I have no clue what is going on there, I believe St. Faustina indicated that Jesus can come to you just moments before death to offer you another chance at salvation. She indicated that some accept, but not every one does. This however is a private revelation to a mystic, i.e. it most certainly isn’t a dogmatic teaching of the Church, and we are not required to believe it.

Personally I would certainly like to, Jesus didn’t come to this world to damn it, he came to save it. So this fits in line with this understanding pretty neatly.

But again, I’m not taking my chances on Christ coming to offer me one more chance just before I die after living a life as a moral repubate. I’d rather repent now, seek reconciliation frequently, and receive the Eucharist. I think these are clear statements to God that I want to be in his presence at the end of time, and I think this significanlly increases the odds that this is where you’re giong to be.

 

[CMatt25]

Where do you get that from? I don’t think that’s what I said, I said that there are certain extrodinary cases where if someone walks away from God, they can make a perfect repentance if you will (perfect act of contrition) and still be saved. Even though they commit mortal sin against God. I think what I said is quite contrary to what you posted.

From: “One should not, however** rely upon extrodenary means of salvation**. Just because it may have worked for one person, doesn’t mean it’s going to work for you. Better to accept Christ now, receive the sacraments, and live as holy a life as you can.”

But I’m sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[crazzeto]

From: “One should not, however** rely upon extrodenary means of salvation**. Just because it may have worked for one person, doesn’t mean it’s going to work for you. Better to accept Christ now, receive the sacraments, and live as holy a life as you can.”

But I’m sorry if I misunderstood.

What you’re starting to get at, is testing God which is covered in Matthew’s Gospel

5 Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him upon the pinnacle of the temple,

6 And said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

What I’m saying is don’t live a life as a moral repubate just expecting God is going to give you that last chance St. Foustina was talking about. That’s a very wreckless thing to do, that’s testing just how far God is willing to go to save your soul.

 

[Janet1983]

Do Christians have the ability to judge who faces eternal death? Or only God? I was told here on this forum by a Catholic I would face eternal death if I disobeyed my bishop by committing a mortal sin as defined by the Church, example missing Mass on Nov 1 a defined Holy Day of Obligation by the Church if I did not repent. But the same poster also told me if I attended another church, the poster could not judge whether I would go to hell.

I understand the delicacies of semantics and code words sometimes used and how staring at eternal death in the face may not mean actually being condemned to it.

But I also read in catechism # 1860 where feelings can diminish the offense. So if one feels after praying about this for guidance by the Holy Spirit they are not committing mortal sin, then what?

Well some Catholics feel that they are indeed in the position to judge whether or not somebody will suffer eternal punishment if they were to pass away this very moment…
I have been told by a member of this board that I was very likely to be among those who would suffer eternal consequences for my behaviour… I was a practising Catholic until the age of 23/24 and recently formally defected the Catholic Church. I was told that, because I was thoroughly catechized I knew exactly what I was doing (which I do) and that my behaviour is considered mortal sin because of that (heresy, schism, depending on the definition even apostasy). I am a Christian, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and following Him alone and because I deny the authority of the Catholic Church and some of her teachings I was told that my soul is in grave danger.
Whether or not they are supported by official Church teaching in their assessment I couldn’t say, but I do know that at least one Catholic in this forum thinks he can judge me for my decisions.

 

[crazzeto]

Janet, I would exhort you to read through the rest of the thread regarding this subject. I’m very sorry to hear you decided to leave the faith, but who ever said you are definetly going to go to hell is incorrect. Catholics can’t say that, all we can say is certain behaviours make it far more likely than others.

I’m curious, why is it you decided to leave the faith?

 

[Janet1983]

Janet, I would exhort you to read through the rest of the thread regarding this subject. I’m very sorry to hear you decided to leave the faith, but who ever said you are definetly going to go to hell is incorrect. Catholics can’t say that, all we can say is certain behaviours make it far more likely than others.

I’m curious, why is it you decided to leave the faith?

I will read though the thread right after this answer. I should have in beforehand, but the original post was so intriguing that I wanted to answer it right away.

Well first of all, the poster was rather serious about his claim… there are more posts about this in the same thread, but that would be too long to put in here, so I just add a small portion:

Then you have rejected The Catholic Church and must resolve it with God and accept His Judgement with the foreknowledge that you knew at one time this rejection is grave matter. All choices have eternal consequences. Lucifer had perfect knowledge with his full angelic intellect yet he chose to reject God’s will by his “non servium” (I will not serve). God did not show mercy to Lucifer since he had angelic intelligence and was held to the highest standard. You have been trained to the full truth and have rejected it out of a latent disbelief. Mercy is only possibly if one desires to turn away from error and repent. I suggest you go talk to God about that since we have told you that you are most definately in the arena of grave matter and at considerable risk of being damned by your own fault and by your own choices.

I decided to leave because of irreconcilable theological differences. It would be more than just hypocritical for me to stay a Catholic without believing the teachings of the CC and attending Mass.

You sister in Christ,
Janet

 

[CMatt25]

What you’re starting to get at, is testing God which is covered in Matthew’s Gospel

What I’m saying is don’t live a life as a moral repubate just expecting God is going to give you that last chance St. Foustina was talking about. That’s a very wreckless thing to do, that’s testing just how far God is willing to go to save your soul.

I hardly think one is living a life as a moral repubate by missing Mass on Nov 1 for instance. But oh well to each his own.

 

[Janet1983]

I hardly think one is living a life as a moral repubate by missing Mass on Nov 1 for instance. But oh well to each his own.

Well I think that there are warnings given by the Catholic Church, but that no Catholic can judge anybody else according to their deeds. There is a possibility of reinforcing the warning before and after a deed that is called a mortal sin, but the state of the heart and the possibility of repentance before death is something only God can judge.
We wouldn’t know whether a man who has been condemned to death because of treason, kidnapping, espionage, rape, criminal assault, arson, slavery, piracy and mass murder (so basically the worst man I could imagine right now) did actually repent before dying.
We couldn’t say and because of that we do not have any right to judge him. We should however reprove, rebuke and exhort each other with great patience and instruction.

You sister in Christ
Janet

 

[crazzeto]

I hardly think one is living a life as a moral repubate by missing Mass on Nov 1 for instance. But oh well to each his own.

Ok, no offence but this discussion seems to be going no where… You’re trying to pick out a sin here or there and apply that to my statements. So I’ll end this discussion regarding extrodenary means with this, please just go back and fairly read what I posted.

 

[CMatt25]

Well some Catholics feel that they are indeed in the position to judge whether or not somebody will suffer eternal punishment if they were to pass away this very moment…
I have been told by a member of this board that I was very likely to be among those who would suffer eternal consequences for my behaviour… I was a practising Catholic until the age of 23/24 and recently formally defected the Catholic Church. I was told that, because I was thoroughly catechized I knew exactly what I was doing (which I do) and that my behaviour is considered mortal sin because of that (heresy, schism, depending on the definition even apostasy). I am a Christian, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and following Him alone and because I deny the authority of the Catholic Church and some of her teachings I was told that my soul is in grave danger.
Whether or not they are supported by official Church teaching in their assessment I couldn’t say, but I do know that at least one Catholic in this forum thinks he can judge me for my decisions.

Hi Janet, sadly to me I have to guess maybe more than one based on my time here. To be truthful I am sure there are folks in various traditions who are more judgmental than others. But it is discouraging.

You will never get a judgment nor even a presumption of a possible judgment from me though. You are a believer in Christ our Lord. That is good enough for me. You are my sister and God bless you on your journey with Him. Peace.

 

[crazzeto]

I will read though the thread right after this answer. I should have in beforehand, but the original post was so intriguing that I wanted to answer it right away.

Well first of all, the poster was rather serious about his claim… there are more posts about this in the same thread, but that would be too long to put in here, so I just add a small portion:

I decided to leave because of irreconcilable theological differences. It would be more than just hypocritical for me to stay a Catholic without believing the teachings of the CC and attending Mass.

You sister in Christ,
Janet

Certainly some posters can get a little zelous, and forget that you can’t judge an individual. So appologies for that… I clicked the link to your blog, I get the feeling that you might enjoy preaching? Is the issue of no woman preists among those? I’m sorry, I should digress now, I certainly don’t want to hijack this thread. If you’re willing to discuss it further feel free to PM me.

Regardless, I would ask only this. You spent much of your life a Catholic, so please at least don’t misrepresent the church and all believers with the statement you made earlier. Certainly there are protistants, and believers of all faiths which make the same mistake the poster you highlighted made.

 

[CMatt25]

Well I think that there are warnings given by the Catholic Church, but that no Catholic can judge anybody else according to their deeds. There is a possibility of reinforcing the warning before and after a deed that is called a mortal sin, but the state of the heart and the possibility of repentance before death is something only God can judge.
We wouldn’t know whether a man who has been condemned to death because of treason, kidnapping, espionage, rape, criminal assault, arson, slavery, piracy and mass murder (so basically the worst man I could imagine right now) did actually repent before dying.
We couldn’t say and because of that we do not have any right to judge him. We should however reprove, rebuke and exhort each other with great patience and instruction.

You sister in Christ
Janet

I understand. I was just taken aback by “moral repubate” but perhaps I should not have been. And by the original “facing eternal death” I referred to originally. I apologize if I misunderstood anyone.

 

[CMatt25]

Certainly some posters can get a little zelous, and forget that you can’t judge an individual. So appologies for that… Certainly there are protistants, and believers of all faiths which make the same mistake the poster you highlighted made.

Craz, we think alike.