Judgment of others

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fish90

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Does the condemnation of judgment disallow opinions to be given about people? Or, does Christ condemn the moral faults of a neighbor from being judged. For instance, can a Catholic find that a Protestant professor would not be giving the truth in a theology class due to the fact that the person is a Protestant?

Further, can you find a person to be at moral fault when there is clear evidence for that position?

In short, what are the limits of judgment? What judgment does Christ allow?

Thanks,
fish90
 
Does the condemnation of judgment disallow opinions to be given about people? Or, does Christ condemn the moral faults of a neighbor from being judged. For instance, can a Catholic find that a Protestant professor would not be giving the truth in a theology class due to the fact that the person is a Protestant?

Further, can you find a person to be at moral fault when there is clear evidence for that position?

In short, what are the limits of judgment? What judgment does Christ allow?

Thanks,
fish90
to recognize something is not true and to say this is not what Christ is talking about.

he is not asking us to be blind.

rash judgment is different then using ones reason to judge that something is evil or untrue or that one has good reasons to judge that so and so lied to you about the car being in good shape before you bought it…etc

From the Catechism

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.277 He becomes guilty:

-** of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;**
  • of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;278
  • of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.
**2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
**
Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.279
 
Does the condemnation of judgment disallow opinions to be given about people? Or, does Christ condemn the moral faults of a neighbor from being judged. For instance, can a Catholic find that a Protestant professor would not be giving the truth in a theology class due to the fact that the person is a Protestant?

Further, can you find a person to be at moral fault when there is clear evidence for that position?

In short, what are the limits of judgment? What judgment does Christ allow?

Thanks,
fish90
*I think opinions are permitted with no problem. I think judging someone is quite different than offering your opinion on a matter (or someone else’s beliefs). We should always be respectful when dealing with others even if we disagree with them or their lifestyles. The word judgment, to me, comes with a “sentence” or a feeling of condemnation. That’s what we shouldn’t do. We shouldn’t condemn others. *
 
Does the condemnation of judgment disallow opinions to be given about people?
We may judge the effects of people’s acts. Public virtue and vice are to be lauded and condemned respectively.
Or, does Christ condemn the moral faults of a neighbor from being judged.
Restating the above: we may condemn moral faults but we may not condemn our neighbor.
For instance, can a Catholic find that a Protestant professor would not be giving the truth in a theology class due to the fact that the person is a Protestant?
No. All truth comes from God and He uses whomever He wills to reveal His truth. The truth or falsehood of a statement is dependent on its relation to God’s reality; not the professor’s religion.
Further, can you find a person to be at moral fault when there is clear evidence for that position?
No. The person’s moral disposition is only known to God and the person.
In short, what are the limits of judgment? What judgment does Christ allow?
Actions; not people.
 
In short, what are the limits of judgment? What judgment does Christ allow?

Thanks,
fish90
Sin is an error in judgment. Every time one judges, they run the risk of sinning, thus judge as little as possible. Don’t judge until you really have to. One cannot totally avoid judging as every decision made is a judgment. But judging is different than assessing. A judgment affixes an assessment. Any time you speak, you cause effect (why else speak). But if you speak in error, you propagate error and the practice of making error freely and will eventually be condemned by similar errors. This is why many try to hold against gossip whether it be accurate or not. To speak a judgment aloud is to curse. To curse in error is a serious sin. It isn’t what goes into your mouth that condemns you, but what comes out of it.
 
It is my hope to be humble, to be as Jesus told us to be. He said “Judge not” but we are constantly in need of discretion, and our choices lead to distinction or detestation.
 
James 2:12-13

" So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment."
 
No. All truth comes from God and He uses whomever He wills to reveal His truth. The truth or falsehood of a statement is dependent on its relation to God’s reality; not the professor’s religion.
Why would religion not be a cause for concern in this situation? The fact of the person’s religion proves that the person knows some of the truth not all of the truth, right? This is where my concern rests.

Thanks,
fish90
 
Why would religion not be a cause for concern in this situation? The fact of the person’s religion proves that the person knows some of the truth not all of the truth, right? This is where my concern rests.

Thanks,
fish90
Our hierarchy of truths in the Catholic faith provides the comprehensive set of beliefs required to achieve one’s salvation but these truths do not exhaust all of God’s reality. That is, the Catholic Church expresses the essential truths and provides the ordinary means of our sanctification through her sacraments.

Tangential truths may or may not be believed by the faithful, i.e. the sainthood of non-canonized persons. While the true Church of Christ subsists presently in the Catholic Church, the *Catholic Church *is not co-extensive with *the Church *(the People of God) which itself is not co-extinsive with the Kingdom of God.

CCC# 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

273 LG 8 § 2.
274 UR 3 § 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.
 
Our hierarchy of truths in the Catholic faith provides the comprehensive set of beliefs required to achieve one’s salvation but these truths do not exhaust all of God’s reality. That is, the Catholic Church expresses the essential truths and provides the ordinary means of our sanctification through her sacraments.

Tangential truths may or may not be believed by the faithful, i.e. the sainthood of non-canonized persons. While the true Church of Christ subsists presently in the Catholic Church, the *Catholic Church *is not co-extensive with *the Church *(the People of God) which itself is not co-extinsive with the Kingdom of God.

CCC# 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

273 LG 8 § 2.
274 UR 3 § 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.
This may be off topic, but how are the “misinterpretations” of those separated from His Church (I hope that is the correct way to express this:)) not a cause of worry? I would think that somebody who does not offer the complete Truth that is available to humanity to be a cause of worry because one would not be receiving the Truth. I hope you get what I mean to say. Then, there comes the argument that the Catholic Church cannot be called Christ’s Church since His Church extends beyond the “limits” of the Catholic Church.

Also, can sinless judgment be done by judging actions not people?
 
This may be off topic, but how are the “misinterpretations” of those separated from His Church (I hope that is the correct way to express this:)) not a cause of worry?
Those separated from the Catholic Church “misinterpret” the truth in at least one aspect; otherwise they would be Catholic. No? Those who recognize the “misinterpretation(s)” need not worry but do need to work in charity with those who do not.
I would think that somebody who does not offer the complete Truth that is available to humanity to be a cause of worry because one would not be receiving the Truth. I hope you get what I mean to say.
God wills all men be saved. To that end, God reveals the Truth that all men need to be saved. His instrument is His Church. Since the Church always proposes Her Truth to all men at all times, those who propose falsehoods contend with and are against His Church. The sheep will always, therefore, have a true shepherd but they must will to be in the flock.
Then, there comes the argument that the Catholic Church cannot be called Christ’s Church since His Church extends beyond the “limits” of the Catholic Church.
All that is good and true in the non-Catholic Churches of Jesus Christ subsists initially, primarily and in its fullest sense in the Catholic Church.
Also, can sinless judgment be done by judging actions not people?
Yes. For instance, the Church judges several actions as always and everywhere resulting in evil effects: murder, adultery, fornication, masturbation, lying, etc. The acts are intrinscially evil, that is, no good effect ever folllows from the act.
 
Is the concept of giving a person the “benefit of the doubt” at its root a Catholic concept? Does that phrase come from scripture?
 
It is my hope to be humble, to be as Jesus told us to be. He said “Judge not” but we are constantly in need of discretion, and our choices lead to distinction or detestation.
You left out the rest of the quote. A part which is vital. The full quote is: "Judge not, that ye be not judged." So if you don’t want to be judged, do not judge. Doesn’t say that you cannot judge, not in that sentence/verse anyway.

For me personally, I have no fear of being judged as long as it is done right/reasonably.

Question: When you point out that someone is say a liar or a murderer or a pedophile, etc. and someone else responds with “…don’t judge?” Have they not just “judged” you as having “judged” someone else? {The famous Lyric by a band called RUSH comes to mind: “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”} Think of the Incredible and obvious Irony…

Furthermore, when someone says …“don’t judge”, have they not in some capacity acted in defense of someone and their wrongdoing that you may be trying to expose? Wrongdoing that may need to be exposed. A serious glaring, immoral, and criminal example would be the pedophilia that was covered up not for years but for generations in the Church. I know that if I had found out about it or witnessed it, I would have been doing everything I could to point out what was happening - to see that it stopped and that the perpetrators went to jail where they belonged. Couldn’t have done that though if I wasn’t allowed to form a judgment about someone and their actions.

On a related note: Recently I pointed out that someone was committing numerous grave sins which have “gravely” injured (and were still injuring) me and my children (because they were still doing it) - and the priests first and only response to me was “don’t judge”. Never mind how that made me feel at the time, a more important issue, it seems to me is that this attitude not only helps to cover up grave sins, but in some situations it may even enable it. Makes me wonder too how this priest has been advising this person that has harmed me and my children so gravely?

Brother’s & Sisters’ be honest: We judge things, situations, and people all of the time and nowhere in the bible does it say that we cannot judge nor does is say not to judge. The quote “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” is clearly and on it’s face a statement of fairness which means that if you judge others, then you open yourself up to be judged as well.
**
Furthermore, does it not direct us in the bible that we have an obligation to correct our brethren when they go astray? Yes, it fact, it does. Thus I ask you, if you are not allowed to judge anyone, then whom are you going to decide to correct?**

I believe this attitude/behavior is fundamental to the modern day creation of the feel good church. I ask you, do you want a feel good church where everyone (even lifelong members that may spend their entire lives committing “grave” evil can feel good about how they are living? To go through their lives hurting others-wrecking lives along the way and to never be directly told that what they are doing is terrible?

Additionally, to my knowledge none of the people whom I have witnessed to spend lifetimes doing grave EVIL have actually thought that they were doing Evil. And…there is a reason for this lack of awareness of their own crimes/sins.

The sad fact here on which I hope everyone will agree is that some people are so hard-headed that they have to be told directly and in no uncertain terms that what they are doing is wrong.

I have also often wondered did I as a martial arts instructor hold my students to higher standards than the Church did it’s members? And I honestly don’t know fully the answer to that, however, I do know that in some Churches, sadly, the answer is “Yes”.

…Grave sins are just that, “Grave”, and they should always be treated accordingly and given the respect or lack thereof that they merit. When we start doing that as a people, that’s when grave sins like abortion, adultery, and others will no longer be considered to be “no big deal”.

I ask that if anyone judges me to be doing something wrong by saying and/or thinking this - that they withhold the judgment that they would have me to withhold.

If you have read this far, I want to say, Thank you and God Bless You.
 
I do not think that Orthodox Christians cannot judge actions not avoid those who sins will harm you. That’s a spiritual work of mercy. The problem is judging people. You cannot judge the person. That is for God to decide.
 
Do you and does Jesus allow me to judge someone when I get called to Jury duty?

What about when I am hiring someone new? Am I allowed to form judgments about applicants?

I could go and and on…

Jesus does not say you cannot judge. He say’s, do Not Judge Harshly. Think about it, why would he need to tell us not to not judge harshly if we were not allowed to Judge?

This extreme concern that people not judge at all comes from people who are concerned about being judged themselves. They would love to see a society where no one judges another.

Good people, bad people, sinners and saints - it is not my judgment that you need to worry about.
 
Do you and does Jesus allow me to judge someone when I get called to Jury duty?

What about when I am hiring someone new? Am I allowed to form judgments about applicants?

I could go and and on…

Jesus does not say you cannot judge. He say’s, do Not Judge Harshly. Think about it, why would he need to tell us not to not judge harshly if we were not allowed to Judge?

This extreme concern that people not judge at all comes from people who are concerned about being judged themselves. They would love to see a society where no one judges another.

Good people, bad people, sinners and saints - it is not my judgment that you need to worry about.
I believe the point is that we may not judge the state of another’s soul. We all have different gifts from the Spirit. We may certainly judge the differences in our gifts. For instance, some can type 100 words a minute; some 10. If you’re hiring a typist, you make a mental judgement regarding one’s competence; not a moral judgement regarding one’s state of grace.

Even when we observe the evil effects of another’s action, we must judge the action evil but may not judge the actor a sinner. Courts judge the actions of the defendant as lawful or unlawful, just or unjust. If the action is judged unlawful, the court may proceed to judge the defendant’s intent or other mental disposition to determine culpability. However, these determinations are always acknowledged to be less than certain ranging from “preponderance of evidence” to the severest criteria “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Jurors would be unwise (and un-Christian) to think they have come to a judgement of guilt with moral certainty for that is beyond human capability.
 
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