Judgment!!!

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Echelons above my paygrade!

I have a full plate getting myself into Heaven, without worrying about that sort of thing.

I will say this, I trust God to sort all this stuff out.

It reminds me of a story about a French General, who happened to be a devoted Catholic in the days when the French Republic was notably anti-clerical. This General was asked by the Minister of Defense which other French officers this general saw at Mass. The General replied, “I sit at the front, and focus on praying, so I don’t notice who else is there.”
While I agree with you regarding having a full plate getting myself to heaven–Just what does that involve in your opinion? Any evangelization required? Just what does loving your neighbor mean? What do you believe is required of us in this life?

Peace,
Mark
 
It’s hard to answer such an expansive question as this in the confines of a 6,000 character thread post. There have been many, many books written on the subject over the years, if you’re interested. There’s a whole branch of theology called eschatology that focuses on the four last things: Death, Judgment, Heaven, & Hell. The information is out there for you to find.
I loved the article. Thank you.
In the article I found this:
“The superiority of Catholic eschatology consists in the fact that, without professing to answer every question that idle curiosity may suggest, it gives a clear, consistent, satisfying statement of all that need at present be known, or can profitably be understood, regarding the eternal issues of life and death for each of us personally, and the final consummation of the cosmos of which we are a part.”
Hmmmmmmmm….Interesting……No answer for my idle curiosity.
I will look further into eschatology as per your request.

Thank you.
 
P.S. I thought my questions were very good questions, and I believe I am not the only one who has ever asked them. Sorry If I offended anyone. I mean no offence.
Yes, your questions are good questions that we would all do well to ponder. Certain questions are easy to answer quickly in a “shooting from the hip” sort of way. Other questions require lengthier explanations to answer them satisfactorily. Your questions fall into the latter category.
 
I loved the article. Thank you.
In the article I found this:

Hmmmmmmmm….Interesting……No answer for my idle curiosity.
I will look further into eschatology as per your request.

Thank you.
Not that your curiosity is idle. 😉

I think what it means by not answering “every question that idle curiosity may suggest” is that we can’t dependably answer every conceivable question about the end of things (such as “Is so-and-so in hell?” or “Will I still have my iPod in heaven?”, etc.). Some of those such questions we simply don’t need to know. Far more important are the basic questions such as “What must I do to be saved?”
 
Not that your curiosity is idle. 😉

I think what it means by not answering “every question that idle curiosity may suggest” is that we can’t dependably answer every conceivable question about the end of things (such as “Is so-and-so in hell?” or “Will I still have my iPod in heaven?”, etc.). Some of those such questions we simply don’t need to know. Far more important are the basic questions such as “What must I do to be saved?”
iPod? What iPod? 😃

True some questions are more important than others, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t ask questions and seek answers.
Have a great weekend.

🙂
 
iPod? What iPod? 😃

True some questions are more important than others, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t ask questions and seek answers.
Have a great weekend.

🙂
Certainly. It’s not that it’s bad to think about or ask questions. But certain questions won’t have an “official” Catholic answer. But it’s still fun to think about. I don’t think your questions fall into the category of frivilousness, though.
 
A priest told me once that Christ paid for salvation with his life, and so salvation is his to do with as he pleases.
After reflecting on it:

I think what the priest told me was the best answer. I think Christians forget that judgment is not like the law of gravity, but is on the shoulders of Christ Jesus. And I believe that where more is given, more is expected, and if the last judgment is any clue into the mind of Christ then it is a judgment based on love.

Just my humble opinion.
 
Let’s get right down to it. 😃

Judgment!!!

Who, what, where, when, why, and how, and how many.

After all we all want to go to heaven someday right?

I would like to hear what people think.

Please explain your answer.
I think that this set of questions is best answered in John 5:24-29 which says:
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
 
I think that this set of questions is best answered in John 5:24-29 which says:
I like your answer.
Let me play devil’s advocate for a minute:
all who are in the tombs
Does this mean if you are not in a tomb then you will not be resurrected?
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs **will hear his voice **and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
This sounds like a judgment of all humanity on works and not faith. Is faith exclusive to Christians or all of humanity? What about the unborn who have not “done” any good works or have faith? After all on this forum with Catholic Christians and non-Catholic Christians you need to explain you answer when quoting scripture.
Please explain your answer.
Peace
 
I like your answer.
Let me play devil’s advocate for a minute:

Does this mean if you are not in a tomb then you will not be resurrected?

This sounds like a judgment of all humanity on works and not faith. Is faith exclusive to Christians or all of humanity? What about the unborn who have not “done” any good works or have faith? After all on this forum with Catholic Christians and non-Catholic Christians you need to explain you answer when quoting scripture.

Peace
humblelurker in Christ,

I’ll try answer your questions. First of all, I would point out that scripture passages are never to be taken in isolation. John 5 mentions those in the tomb. The passage does not mention those that are still alive at the end of time, but clearly does not mean to ignore them. It would seem obvious that you cannot resurrect those that have not died. They need no resurrection in that sense. Nevertheless, they will be changed just as the dead will be resurrected and changed. Other scriptures easily fill in the gap in question. For example 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 says:

I
I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
At that point, the dead and the living will all be the same in terms of their eternal bodies. We will either have glorified bodies made for heaven, or bodies changed for condemnation.

Your second question is actually answered by John 5:24-29 itself.

Verse 24 says:
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
The word “believe” shows that faith is included in the passage and my answer. It is not simply judgment based on works. We cannot divorce faith and works and the quoted passage includes both. As far as infants are concerned, we can only say a couple of things. Baptized infants will go to heaven. Unbaptized infants that lack faith and works can only be left to the infinite mercy of God. We do not know exactly how God deals with them. There are theological theories, but nothing definitive. Likewise, scripture gives us nothing definitive on unbaptized infants.

All of humanity will be judged. We are bound by God’s instructions to us, but God is not bound by those instructions. God’s mercy comes first, then his justice. Those that are ignorant of the truth through no fault of their own will be judged accordingly. Paul says the following in that regard in Romans 2:14-16:
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
I hope this answers your questions and fills in any holes that I left with my first response.

God bless.
 
I did enjoy the articles. Thank You.

What about a non-Christians relationship with Christ (or lack of relationship)? Does that effect salvation for them?
Heres a speculative reply.
You could say there are two groups of beings who are to be judged. One group exists in the eternal now. The past nor future does not exist to them both past and future are just the now, the eternal present.
The second group do not exist in the eternal now. They are routed outside the eternal now into a temporal existance where there exists those unusual properties of ‘past’ and ‘future’.

And all things must be judged; …

The first group, those who exist in the eternal now, are judged at once because there is no past or future there is no time to pass during their judgement. They are judged all at once, in the twinkling of an eye.

The second group, however, have to exist within those strange properties of 'past and ‘future’. When that function ‘judgement’ is introduced into this unusual temporal existance it too experiences the property of ‘past’ and ‘future’. When the function of ‘judgement’ is placed into the temporal arena of past and future it spreads out uniformly from that point to envelope all of this temporal space.

However, because of this quality of ‘future’ the function ‘judgement’ will expand within the novel idea of ‘time’.
Judgement now experiences ‘time’, for the first time. So how fast is the spead of judgement, you may ask. It depends on the point in time it is currently in. 1,900 years ago the speed of judgement was quite slow, perhaps 3-4 miles per hour if it was walking or 5-10 knots if it travelled by sail-ship.

But because ‘judgement’ is made of a substance called ‘Justice’ and ‘Justice’ has very tiny partices, the smallest particles known to man in fact, it follows that justice will get everywhere, in you cloths, in your skin, everywhere. It will eventually completely invade the future and judgement in such manner will be carried throughout time.
And it will as you have seen be a just judgement.

However, as judgement came upon those in the first group in the twinkling of an eye, because they lived outside of time, they did not see it until the exact moment it was upon them. It was completely invisable because it did not move.

So in the second group, within time, judgement must be subject also to time and it needs to move. The effect of this is that those men in the second group can see, yes actually see, judgement approaching them stealthily. There is no avoiding it as we know it will envelope everthing within time eventually.

So, since man can see judgement approaching he can also prepare to meet it. Standing on his head and reciting Ode to a Nightingale by John Keats three times will not make any difference to your meeting. But your meeting with judgement will nevertheless still be just, its just that you will not be prepared because you did not understand the nature of the judgement approaching you.

However, all is not lost. A man arrived along with the quality of ‘Judgement’ from the place called Eternity. He spoke our language so we could understand this approaching Judgement and what substance it was made of. So those who eventually heard and understood finally about judgement could prepare themselves for it in a useful way by preparing their minds, hearts, bodies and souls to meet this new substance ‘Justice’.

However, those who heard and understood about this substance Justice and the effect of Judgement it would have on them, and who decided not to prepare themselves in mind, heart, body and soul went in the opposite direction of preparing for it to show that they did not believe it. And those people were not only not minimally capable of meeting this new substance Justice nor were they prepared to meet it in body and soul but they actually engineered their own bodies, hearts, souls and minds to a configuration that would render this new substance ‘justice’ toxic and fatal at any dose.

See, its quite simple, really. 🙂
 
Heres a speculative reply.
You could say there are two groups of beings who are to be judged. One group exists in the eternal now. The past nor future does not exist to them both past and future are just the now, the eternal present.
The second group do not exist in the eternal now. They are routed outside the eternal now into a temporal existance where there exists those unusual properties of ‘past’ and ‘future’.

And all things must be judged; …

The first group, those who exist in the eternal now, are judged at once because there is no past or future there is no time to pass during their judgement. They are judged all at once, in the twinkling of an eye.

The second group, however, have to exist within those strange properties of 'past and ‘future’. When that function ‘judgement’ is introduced into this unusual temporal existance it too experiences the property of ‘past’ and ‘future’. When the function of ‘judgement’ is placed into the temporal arena of past and future it spreads out uniformly from that point to envelope all of this temporal space.

However, because of this quality of ‘future’ the function ‘judgement’ will expand within the novel idea of ‘time’.
Judgement now experiences ‘time’, for the first time. So how fast is the spead of judgement, you may ask. It depends on the point in time it is currently in. 1,900 years ago the speed of judgement was quite slow, perhaps 3-4 miles per hour if it was walking or 5-10 knots if it travelled by sail-ship.

But because ‘judgement’ is made of a substance called ‘Justice’ and ‘Justice’ has very tiny partices, the smallest particles known to man in fact, it follows that justice will get everywhere, in you cloths, in your skin, everywhere. It will eventually completely invade the future and judgement in such manner will be carried throughout time.
And it will as you have seen be a just judgement.

However, as judgement came upon those in the first group in the twinkling of an eye, because they lived outside of time, they did not see it until the exact moment it was upon them. It was completely invisable because it did not move.

So in the second group, within time, judgement must be subject also to time and it needs to move. The effect of this is that those men in the second group can see, yes actually see, judgement approaching them stealthily. There is no avoiding it as we know it will envelope everthing within time eventually.

So, since man can see judgement approaching he can also prepare to meet it. Standing on his head and reciting Ode to a Nightingale by John Keats three times will not make any difference to your meeting. But your meeting with judgement will nevertheless still be just, its just that you will not be prepared because you did not understand the nature of the judgement approaching you.

However, all is not lost. A man arrived along with the quality of ‘Judgement’ from the place called Eternity. He spoke our language so we could understand this approaching Judgement and what substance it was made of. So those who eventually heard and understood finally about judgement could prepare themselves for it in a useful way by preparing their minds, hearts, bodies and souls to meet this new substance ‘Justice’.

However, those who heard and understood about this substance Justice and the effect of Judgement it would have on them, and who decided not to prepare themselves in mind, heart, body and soul went in the opposite direction of preparing for it to show that they did not believe it. And those people were not only not minimally capable of meeting this new substance Justice nor were they prepared to meet it in body and soul but they actually engineered their own bodies, hearts, souls and minds to a configuration that would render this new substance ‘justice’ toxic and fatal at any dose.

See, its quite simple, really. 🙂
Well done!
 
Thing and Pax, thank you very much.

This thread is definitely good to meditate on. 👍

Blessings.
 
I did enjoy the articles. Thank You.

What about a non-Christians relationship with Christ (or lack of relationship)? Does that effect salvation for them?
http://payingattentiontothesky.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/hellbosch1.jpg?w=300&h=704

Reading selections from Avery Cardinal Dulles on the population of hell here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/09/28/the-population-of-hell-avery-cardinal-dulles/

doesn’t specifically answer your question but has a great overview on Church teachings on hell. The painting is by Hieronymus Bosch gives an idea what the place looks like and why it might be a good idea not to visit…

regards,

dj
 
Reading selections from Avery Cardinal Dulles on the population of hell here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/09/28/the-population-of-hell-avery-cardinal-dulles/

doesn’t specifically answer your question but has a great overview on Church teachings on hell. The painting is by Hieronymus Bosch gives an idea what the place looks like and why it might be a good idea not to visit…

regards,

dj
It was a good article. Thanks.

At one point in the article I wanted to say to some of the more pessimistic theologians, “Please take an anti-depressant” lol 😛

And to the more optimistic ones, “yes there those in every crowd who need to be different” lol 😃

Interesting enough the article made me smile.

Blessings.
 
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