Judiasim, Islam, Christian help

[bsmith359]

Hi, Im doing a presentation on thursday in school prooving that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.(this is philosphy class). However, were also suposed to represent the other side of the coin, and I honestly am not sure how to defend against these things that I found. Im suposed to come up with reasons why others relgions dont beleive in him as the Messiah, and I have to explain why my reasons are better then there…

Thanks for the Help!

For Judiasim we have:

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all commandments remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Maimonides devotes most of the “Guide for the Perplexed” to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: “God is not a mortal” (Numbers 23:19).

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

<–how do i defend that?

Islam:

Do Muslims believe Jesus was killed on the cross then resurrected? NO

"“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156) “God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157) .

Do Muslims believe he was a Messenger of One God? YES

Belief in all of the Prophets and Messengers of God is a fundamental article of faith in Islam. Thus, believing in Prophets Adam, Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them) is a requirement for anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim. A person claiming to be a Muslim who, for instance, denies the Messengership of Jesus, is not considered a Muslim.

The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger:

“The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!” (Quran 5:75).

Do Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of God? NO

"Say: “God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!” (Quran 112:1-4).

The Quran also states:

“Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be’ and it is” (Quran 19:34-35).

 

[Kaninchen]

For Judiasim we have:

Actually, there’s a lot more to it than that.

There is no knock-out answer to the question of ‘Jesus as Messiah’ and it’s just something you have to accept - remember that we (like Muslims, though for different reasons) don’t accept the New Testament in the first place. While there are certain critical proof texts - about virgins or suffering servants, for example - they only work if you think the New Testament as some kind of record of events, if you don’t, if you think the whole thing a pious fiction, then they don’t.

There are numerous Jewish sites where it’s argued that the New Testament even got those references wrong and the whole business is rather like trying to finish a jigsaw by biting bits off pieces to make them fit and you’ll find Christian sites about answering Jewish objections but, in the end, it comes down to belief.

 

[Barbkw]

The Jewish “grassroots” didn’t believe because He didn’t fulfill their vision of an earthly King.

The Jewish hierarchy plotted to kill Him because His teachings and miracles were greater than any earthly Priest.

At the time Jesus died on the cross, the sum total of people who believed Him to be the Son of God, were surrounding His feet. And that, actually would be stretching the count.

John and Peter went running to the tomb in half disbelief.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Saul the Pharisee, St. Paul the Apostle, reasoned;

“If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. . . .”

“If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen sleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.”

“But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.”

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Hi, what you need to do, is take the Messianic prophesies from thr Torah and Tanakh and show how they were fullfilled in Christ. Concentrate on those conserned with the Passion and Crusifixion in particular as both Islam and judaism reject both of these. the following link is to the site of some Jews for Jesus who made a list, messianicbible.com/prophecies.asp#ps110. Then show how none of these things are mentioned in full detail in the Qu’oran or expected by modern Jews. Remember that you are not just doing a project but you are also presenting the Faith, say a prayer to the Holy Ghost to use the right words. Good luck. also i think I have to do this next year, you’re not in the IB program are you?

 

[bsmith359]

nope. just a p hilsphy class at a community college. just a basic phillosphy class with a bunch of people who are picking topics about "god’ you have people defending diedisim, scientology, and there opiinions on ‘faith’. and then you had a guy out there that did something on how jesus was NOT the mesiah…I orginaly was going to do my presentation ()final exam) on how aborition is wrong…but when someone did it on how jesus was NOT the messiah, and poorly represented the christian–let al one catholic–faith and thew in some adolf hitlers, and presented it in a horrible way, who clearly dident know a thing about the bible----i said to my self, okay im going to put him in his place. my teacher is a protostent, and he knows im catholic, an we both agree that his presentation was awful. I thnk my protostent teacher will give me an A for defendng the faith. The stuff i want to present is going to be so complicated, that It wouldnt suprise me if the only person in the room that understansd what im taling about, is my actual teacher… i would bet 75% of the class will learn something if they pay attention, and hopefuly it will inspire them and hopefuly I God will speak through me and make them have a curiosity

Oh yes, Ill pray before I present.

 

[stephe1987]

Jesus was Jewish. Many people don’t know this, but at his time, the Torah was not complete like it is today. It had only the first three books of our Old Testament, and the rest of the books were disputed at that time. Jesus and the Old Testament he quoted from represents a group of Jews. Some of those books are not in the Torah, and others are not accepted by Protestants. In other cases, our books are slightly different from the Jewish books. Jesus was from a group of Jews, the Jews of today represent another group. Also, remember that many people could not read or write until very recently, so the stories could have changed over time. One group may have altered their stories to support Jesus, another may have altered theirs as an excuse not to accept Jesus. The New Testament is 99.5% textually pure; unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the Old Testament.

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all commandments remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
The Jewish people do observe the Torah. The Commandments are still binding, but the day of the worship has been changed from Saturday to Sunday. Remember, the point was not to worship only on a certain day, but to make sure at least one day of each week is set aside for GOD. Also, the Sabbath is still called the Sabbath and many people do Bible studies on Friday nights or on Saturdays.

Maimonides devotes most of the “Guide for the Perplexed” to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: “God is not a mortal” (Numbers 23:19).
God became a mortal to save us from our sins. Only his HUMAN form was born and died. His spirit was always alive (not born or died, since he is not a created being) and did not have a physical from prior to the incarnation. Another prespective says that this passage refers to God the Father, the first Person in the Trinity. The idea of the trinity wasn’t around back then, it only came up when Jesus chose to reveal it to humans.

*The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods. **
This is a silly argument. 1) Nobody is saying Mary was a middle-aged or elderly woman. Everyone agrees Mary was a teenager, a young woman, when she gave birth. 2) Pagans had many ideas about God. Some of them were correct, others were not. But saying Christians took the ideas from pagans just because paganism was there before Christianity is silly. Otherwise every author of every book could be sued for “stealing an idea” from another person. The same goes for movies. God reveals different things to different people, and sometimes people make up stuff and just happen to guess correctly. Big deal.

"“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156) “God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157) .
There is absolutely no foundation to this claim whatsoever. The people who knew Jesus saw him die, saw him come back from the dead, and 500 people saw him ascend to heaven. They were even willing to die for their beliefs. Muhammad did not know Jesus, nor was he under the guidance of those who did like the New Testament writers. He was telling people this so they would follow him instead of Jesus. Muhammad says he heard his news from the angel Gabriel; however, when he first saw “Gabriel” he was very scared and even believed “Gabriel” was a demon. Very strange it goes from demon to angel and then conveniently the “angel” tells Muhammad exactly what he wanted to hear: when he was running out of supplies it was suddenly okay to rob people who passed by him and his followers. It’s a little too convenient, don’t you think? Especially compared to Jesus, who had to suffer and couldn’t reveal himself, even when he was being tortured and killed.

“The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!” (Quran 5:75).
More unfounded claims. Those who knew Jesus say otherwise. Muhammad did not know Jesus.

"Say: “God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!” (Quran 112:1-4).
Muhammad clearly did not understand the trinity. There is one God, yes, but three Persons in the trinity. I think they are confusing the trinity with tritheism, as if Christians believe there are three separate and unique gods.

“Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be’ and it is” (Quran 19:34-35). *
More confusion spread by Muhammad. God did not have sexual relations with Mary… God used Mary as a means to be born in human form so he could perform the greatest act of love: to die for his friends, to free us from sin, open the gates to heaven, etc. He was there to fulfill the Old Testament (since a covenant ends with death) and to start a new one with a more universal, Catholic, church, rather than just a chosen race of people (although He was born from the Jewish people).

 

[stephe1987]

Actually, there’s a lot more to it than that.

There is no knock-out answer to the question of ‘Jesus as Messiah’ and it’s just something you have to accept - remember that we (like Muslims, though for different reasons) don’t accept the New Testament in the first place. While there are certain critical proof texts - about virgins or suffering servants, for example - they only work if you think the New Testament as some kind of record of events, if you don’t, if you think the whole thing a pious fiction, then they don’t.

There are numerous Jewish sites where it’s argued that the New Testament even got those references wrong and the whole business is rather like trying to finish a jigsaw by biting bits off pieces to make them fit and you’ll find Christian sites about answering Jewish objections but, in the end, it comes down to belief.

The New Testament is a record of events. It is eyewitnesses and people who were under the guidance of those who knew Jesus wrote it. Jesus was a historical person, and there are secular records about him, too. They just didn’t know as much about Jesus and didn’t write about him as much because they thought Christianity would die out. It is presented as historical unlike, for example, the King Arthur legends. More info at y-jesus.org.

Also, the Torah wasn’t complete when Jesus was around. Only the first three books of today’s Old Testament were considered official, and the other books were disputed. Many books Jesus quoted from are not accepted by Jews or Protestants today. Jesus represents some Jews; today’s Jews represent another group.

Another point to consider: God was testing the people through Jesus. The prophecies were purposely written where they could be interpreted in different ways! Those who were looking at themselves and their material world would expect a political revolution when they spoke about the Messiah freeing the Jews from their enemies. Those who were looking to God realized that their greatest and only enemy was themself: it was people who broke their friendship with God; people chose to sin. Once they realized that, and saw how Jesus died and rose from the dead (people who saw this willing to die for this belief), they realized that sin was the greatest enemy, and through his death those who believed in Him (and repented for their sins) were saved.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

nope. just a p hilsphy class at a community college. just a basic phillosphy class with a bunch of people who are picking topics about "god’ you have people defending diedisim, scientology, and there opiinions on ‘faith’. and then you had a guy out there that did something on how jesus was NOT the mesiah…I orginaly was going to do my presentation ()final exam) on how aborition is wrong…but when someone did it on how jesus was NOT the messiah, and poorly represented the christian–let al one catholic–faith and thew in some adolf hitlers, and presented it in a horrible way, who clearly dident know a thing about the bible----i said to my self, okay im going to put him in his place. my teacher is a protostent, and he knows im catholic, an we both agree that his presentation was awful. I thnk my protostent teacher will give me an A for defendng the faith. The stuff i want to present is going to be so complicated, that It wouldnt suprise me if the only person in the room that understansd what im taling about, is my actual teacher… i would bet 75% of the class will learn something if they pay attention, and hopefuly it will inspire them and hopefuly I God will speak through me and make them have a curiosity

Oh yes, Ill pray before I present.

How the Hell did they bring der Fuhrer into this? What does Herr Hitler have to do with the Messiah?

 

[Kaninchen]

The New Testament is a record of events. It is eyewitnesses and people who were under the guidance of those who knew Jesus wrote it. Jesus was a historical person, and there are secular records about him, too. They just didn’t know as much about Jesus and didn’t write about him as much because they thought Christianity would die out. It is presented as historical unlike, for example, the King Arthur legends. More info at y-jesus.org.

Also, the Torah wasn’t complete when Jesus was around. Only the first three books of today’s Old Testament were considered official, and the other books were disputed. Many books Jesus quoted from are not accepted by Jews or Protestants today. Jesus represents some Jews; today’s Jews represent another group.

Another point to consider: God was testing the people through Jesus. The prophecies were purposely written where they could be interpreted in different ways! Those who were looking at themselves and their material world would expect a political revolution when they spoke about the Messiah freeing the Jews from their enemies. Those who were looking to God realized that their greatest and only enemy was themself: it was people who broke their friendship with God; people chose to sin. Once they realized that, and saw how Jesus died and rose from the dead (people who saw this willing to die for this belief), they realized that sin was the greatest enemy, and through his death those who believed in Him (and repented for their sins) were saved.

I understand that you believe all this and I’m sure that it all impresses those who believe in it all as well.

 

[bsmith359]

How the Hell did they bring der Fuhrer into this? What does Herr Hitler have to do with the Messiah?

hahaha they caimd that suince hitler was a catholic (obvously a horrible one) that if hitler was a christian, than christianity is a way of being a nazi!

hahahahahhahahahahah

 

[bsmith359]

“Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be’ and it is” (Quran 19:34-35).
More confusion spread by Muhammad. God did not have sexual relations with Mary… God used Mary as a means to be born in human form so he could perform the greatest act of love: to die for his friends, to free us from sin, open the gates to heaven, etc. He was there to fulfill the Old Testament (since a covenant ends with death) and to start a new one with a more universal, Catholic, church, rather than just a chosen race of people (although He was born from the Jewish people)."

where did you get sexual relations from? is that what islam belieives?

 

[Sister_Amy]

“Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be’ and it is” (Quran 19:34-35).
More confusion spread by Muhammad. God did not have sexual relations with Mary… God used Mary as a means to be born in human form so he could perform the greatest act of love: to die for his friends, to free us from sin, open the gates to heaven, etc. He was there to fulfill the Old Testament (since a covenant ends with death) and to start a new one with a more universal, Catholic, church, rather than just a chosen race of people (although He was born from the Jewish people)."

where did you get sexual relations from? is that what islam belieives?

You’re the one who brought up sexual relations. The ayah doesn’t mention it.

 

[Sister_Amy]

And actually, Muslims do believe Jesus was the Messiah–and he is given that title in the Qur’an, المسيح “Al-Masih” which is the equivalent to Messiah.

So in your presentation you’ll probably want to clarify the distinctions between the Christian interpretation of Messiah, and the Muslim one.

 

[elwill]

And actually, Muslims do believe Jesus was the Messiah–and he is given that title in the Qur’an, المسيح “Al-Masih” which is the equivalent to Messiah.

So in your presentation you’ll probably want to clarify the distinctions between the Christian interpretation of Messiah, and the Muslim one.

i agree with sister Amy

as for both muslims and christians believe that jesus is the massiah , then it’s the defination of this word for christians and for muslims and for jews is more important

my view is that if this word " massiah" is a hebrew word , then you have to begin your study from there
what this word meant for jews in OT ?

good luck