July 4th: Mormonism: Native Americans;(Lamanites)

[Marie5890]

Just something that has knawed at me for years in terms of Mormonism, it’s appeal to Native Americans (Polynisians and Latin Americans though DNA has shown it to be false)

I knew many Native Americans, Islanders and Latin Americans when I was LDS (and they were, too) who found Mormonism very appealing because it appealed to the dignity of their cultures that were, in effect, destroyed by the early European settlers and the “Founding Fathers”…

I think we all know of the historical BLACK SPOT on American history of the immoral way Native AMericans and their cultures were treated by the “founding fathers” and those following…

Now, as DNA shows that they are not what Mormonism and the BoM claim them to be, are again faced with the crimes done to their ancestors.

Not really asking anything. Just putting it out there. I love being an American and love the freedoms that affords me. But I know it came at a price to the Native Americans who were raped of their lands and their dignity and so much more…

I always find myself uncomfortable with the 4th

 

[Hobbes42]

Just something that has knawed at me for years in terms of Mormonism, it’s appeal to Native Americans (Polynisians and Latin Americans though DNA has shown it to be false)

I knew many Native Americans, Islanders and Latin Americans when I was LDS (and they were, too) who found Mormonism very appealing because it appealed to the dignity of their cultures that were, in effect, destroyed by the early European settlers and the “Founding Fathers”…

I think we all know of the historical BLACK SPOT on American history of the immoral way Native AMericans and their cultures were treated by the “founding fathers” and those following…

Now, as DNA shows that they are not what Mormonism and the BoM claim them to be, are again faced with the crimes done to their ancestors.

Not really asking anything. Just putting it out there. I love being an American and love the freedoms that affords me. But I know it came at a price to the Native Americans who were raped of their lands and their dignity and so much more…

I always find myself uncomfortable with the 4th

I find myself uncomfortable on any national holiday. They seem to be festivals of nationalism. While I agree in serving one’s country, the whole “Murica” thing, when a large chunk of our holdings were gained by war, or massacre of the original inhabitants.

 

[Cricket2]

I struggle with some of this also. When we think of how this Nation was built it would do us well to remember: What was done to the American Indians; The slave labor of the Chinese to build our railways; The slavery of the Blacks; The servitude of women; The mistreatment of Polish, Irish, other immigrants as our labor forces. It also does other nations well to remember their dark histories, so that maybe we can stop the seize and conquer mentality that always seems part of creating a new nation.

How wonderful it would be if multiple nations could find a way to be united other than in the name of military protection against war or invasion.

 

[SaintFrancis333]

Amen. Voices of sanity at last. I try to raise these thoughts to some Catholic friends (devout Catholics as far as I can tell) and I have met much resistance. Hell look at the “highest” degree of the Knights of Columbus. The “murica” mentality is one that separates us from Christ, not brings us closer to Him.

 

[Marie5890]

Amen. Voices of sanity at last. I try to raise these thoughts to some Catholic friends (devout Catholics as far as I can tell) and I have met much resistance. Hell look at the “highest” degree of the Knights of Columbus. The “murica” mentality is one that separates us from Christ, not brings us closer to Him.

I agree.

I find it disturbing.
Christ was not an American or any other nationality other than Israeli. He also is not a member of the GOP or the Democrat party…

 

[normbetland]

I agree and disagree.

Clearly what was done to the Native Americans was terrible. But the 4th of July isn’t about celebrating our conquering of another people, its about declaring independence.

Its also important to remember that we weren’t the first nation to become a nation by moving into another people’s land. I believe that there is a story about a nation in the Bible called Israel who also conquered and slaughtered a lot of people. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not one of those people who believe that Israeli conquest of Canaan makes God out to be evil, but I don’t think that we should pretend as if the American colonists were any more oppressive than any other people.

And not that this is any kind of justification of the treatment of Native Americans, the Europeans did not arrive to find a homogenous people living a peaceful coexistence. There were as many American cultures as there were European cultures, and they fought, warred, killed, raped, and plundered just as much as the Europeans.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with being proud to be an American. Yes, I’m Catholic above all else, but this is my homeland, these are my people, we share a common and unique experience living in American society. Being proud to belong to an imperfect group of people doesn’t mean that I disparage other peoples who are not from the US, just as I love my family and am proud to have come from that group of quirky less than perfect German-Norwegians, yet it doesn’t mean that I believe other families are somehow less good than mine.

Anyways, that’s just my thoughts on the Murica thing and our “Black Spot”.

 

[jeannetherese]

I agree.

I find it disturbing.
Christ was not an American or any other nationality other than Israeli:

People from Chile and Canada are Americans. During the time of Christ, the Romans ruled the land in which He lived.
Are you referring to His Jewish identity here?

jt

 

[SteveVH]

I struggle with some of this also. When we think of how this Nation was built it would do us well to remember: What was done to the American Indians; The slave labor of the Chinese to build our railways; The slavery of the Blacks; The servitude of women; The mistreatment of Polish, Irish, other immigrants as our labor forces. It also does other nations well to remember their dark histories, so that maybe we can stop the seize and conquer mentality that always seems part of creating a new nation.

How wonderful it would be if multiple nations could find a way to be united other than in the name of military protection against war or invasion.

We need to also remember that conquest and slavery were the norm in the world at that time. The U.S. did not invent slavery and was not unique in allowing slavery. It is unique in that it is the only country in the world that went to war in order to abolish slavery.

And, while the treatment of native Americans was in many cases abysmal, we should also note that these same native Americans took lands from each other by conquest and took rival tribes as slaves. As I said, it was the way of the world.

In the end, this country, in spite of all its faults, has been the greatest force for good the world has ever known.

 

[CarolNoel]

We need to also remember that conquest and slavery were the norm in the world at that time. The U.S. did not invent slavery and was not unique in allowing slavery. It is unique in that it is the only country in the world that went to war in order to abolish slavery.

And, while the treatment of native Americans was in many cases abysmal, we should also note that these same native Americans took lands from each other by conquest and took rival tribes as slaves. As I said, it was the way of the world.

In the end, this country, in spite of all its faults, has been the greatest force for good the world has ever known.

I agree with you. We look back with our eyes of now, and don’t always understand what the world was like. Nations have always conquered nations. Still going on.

 

[SteveVH]

I agree with you. We look back with our eyes of now, and don’t always understand what the world was like. Nations have always conquered nations. Still going on.

Yep.

 

[RebeccaJ]

In the end, this country, in spite of all its faults, has been the greatest force for good the world has ever known.

I think Christianity beats any country, and has no boundaries as countries do.

 

[TheIrishman]

People from Chile and Canada are Americans. During the time of Christ, the Romans ruled the land in which He lived.
Are you referring to His Jewish identity here?

jt

What other country has the term America in it’s official name? I lived in Canada for 3 years, they don’t refer to themselves as Americans anymore than a Brit would claim he is “European”. It’s the United States of America, that’s why they are American. Chileans, Brazilians, Mexicans all of them don’t refer to themselves as Americans. They may live in the America’s but when it comes to identity, they are respectively referred to as previously mentioned.

Also, why does it matter what Jesus was? He is the Son of God, the Savior, Redeemer. According to scripture they referred to him as the Galilean, that should suffice his nationality.

 

[jeannetherese]

What other country has the term America in it’s official name? I lived in Canada for 3 years, they don’t refer to themselves as Americans anymore than a Brit would claim he is “European”. It’s the United States of America, that’s why they are American. Chileans, Brazilians, Mexicans all of them don’t refer to themselves as Americans. They may live in the America’s but when it comes to identity, they are respectively referred to as previously mentioned.

Also, why does it matter what Jesus was? He is the Son of God, the Savior, Redeemer. According to scripture they referred to him as the Galilean, that should suffice his nationality.

Greetings!
Residents of North and South America are all Americans. The EU has been a political entity for some time (although prior to its creation, those living in Europe were often referred to as Europeans- as a continental identity).
You are correct that people living in specific countries oftentimes will refer to themselves in relation to that country (French, Germans, Canadians). I’m a U.S. citizen (country)and, of course, an American. My friend from Ecuador is an Ecuadorean, and of course, an American.
You are correct in noting that Jesus is referred to as the Galilean (He was also as Jesus of Nazareth-a Nazorean). I’m not sure that either Galilean or Nazorean qualifies as a nationality.

A previous poster stated that Jesus was an Israeli. I think this might have been an error-just as someone calling me a Chilean or Moroccan might be an error.
Thus I responded by asking the poster to clarify-perhaps s/he meant Jewish?
I think that attempting to ask for clarification when terms seem confusing is a good idea and I appreciate your constructive encouragement.
May God bless you and all who visit this thread.
Amen.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .

I don’t think there is anything wrong with being proud to be an American. Yes, I’m Catholic above all else, but this is my homeland, these are my people, we share a common and unique experience living in American society. Being proud to belong to an imperfect group of people doesn’t mean that I disparage other peoples who are not from the US, just as I love my family and am proud to have come from that group of quirky less than perfect German-Norwegians, yet it doesn’t mean that I believe other families are somehow less good than mine.

St. Thomas Aquinas connected patriotism to the love of one’s parents. The Commandment to “honor your father and your mother” includes, as he notes, the duty of patriotism to one’s country.

St. Thomas Aquinas had already coupled together these two devotions, to parents and to country (Summa Theologica, 2a, 2ae, Q. 101). Dealing with the virtue of “pietas,” dutifulness, he writes: “The principles (or origins) of our being and governing are our parents and our country, which have given us birth and nourishment. Consequently man is debtor chiefly to his parents and his country, after God. Wherefore, just as it belongs to religion to give worship to God, so does it belong to “pietas,” in the second place, to give worship to one’s parents and one’s country.” Thus, unlike nationalism, patriotism comes within the sphere of virtue, duty, and moral obligation.

catholicculture.org/cultu…TOKEN=89390011

It seems to me that the only true natives were Adam and Eve.

 

[SteveVH]

I think Christianity beats any country, and has no boundaries as countries do.

Yes, of course. My statement was addressed to those who believe that this country is somehow uniquely evil because we had slaves and conquered the native Americans (even while we proclaimed to be Christian).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, of course. My statement was addressed to those who believe that this country is somehow uniquely evil because we had slaves and conquered the native Americans (even while we proclaimed to be Christian).

Agreed.

As an American, I celebrate the fourth because it is my nation’s history and defines us. It is arbitrary to the place and time that I was born.

Going by how Canada turned out, I can’t see that had we remained under British rule, that we would have turned out better or worse than we are. As citizens of either democratic system, I mean.

The American experiment continues.