Junia the female apostle

[Daniel_Marsh]

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you. Is it picky to stand with the Church’s defintion of the Twelve Apostles? Even though Paul has been called in the honorary sense, Apostle to the Gentiles, and Mary Magdalene has been called in the honorary sense, Apostle to the Apostles, at no time has the Church pretended to change the number and names of the Twelve Apostles. Even Judas was cast out and replaced, maintaining the count of the Twelve. As Israel knew twelve tribes, the RC Church has always acknowledged TWELVE Apostles.

where is proof of that?

In primary sources only please. I could care less about some authors opinion today.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Gee an apostle who is denying that women have authority over men, thus a female apostle is ruled out.

 

[jmcrae]

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

The Early Church didn’t take this literally; otherwise religious teaching orders of women would never have come into existence.

 

[TMC]

Mary Magdalene has been called in the honorary sense, Apostle to the Apostles

where is proof of that?

In primary sources only please. I could care less about some authors opinion today.

That was that radical modernist Augustine of Hippo. When are they going to do something about that guy?

 

[He_Man]

aren’t we being just a tad picky? As if someone were trying to achieve a certain outcome rather than examining the evidence and letting the resultant truth be what it appears to be.

Are you honestly saying you don’t think the pro-female ordination crown doesn’t have an agenda, regardless of evidence?

The evidence thus far has been against them, and they continue to push for the right. That proves they have an agenda.

 

[Hellisreal]

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Gee an apostle who is denying that women have authority over men, thus a female apostle is ruled out.

You make an excellent point Dan, and John Paul felt strongly enough about the topic of female clergy he made sure it would NEVER happen. .

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis seals that door shut forever.
God, Thank you so much

But, as far as other teaching positions (as jmcrae mentioned) I do believe, but am not certain, that they still NEED to have a Priest involved somehow in their ministry.

 

[TMC]

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis seals that door shut forever.

While I recognize that many believe this to be true, others maintain that it did not. Whether Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is infallible is ambiguous, and the Church hasn’t seen fit to really clear this up. For my part, I think that the Pope could change this if he felt that it should be changed, but I agree the point is likely moot as long as Benedict is Pope.

 

[catharina]

That was that radical modernist Augustine of Hippo. When are they going to do something about that guy?

Why thank you so much. You saved me some research.

If I recall, I might have first read of it in the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia - published maybe in 1929? It was a reference book in my parents’ home. It was inherited from my maternal grandparents. Also I’m almost sure I first heard the term used in the very early 1950s - or the late 1940s? Nonethelss, those pre-Vatican years might be WAY too modern for some folks.

Augustine? How wonderful!

 

[christcnection1]

I was told that having a female deaconess would be in line with Church tradition. If that’s so, why doesn’t the Church embrace this?

This is not something I have personally researched, so I do not hold an opinion.

 

[jmcrae]

I was told that having a female deaconess would be in line with Church tradition. If that’s so, why doesn’t the Church embrace this?

This is not something I have personally researched, so I do not hold an opinion.

We already have them: we call them “Sister.”

 

[Hellisreal]

While I recognize that many believe this to be true, others maintain that it did not. Whether Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is infallible is ambiguous, and the Church hasn’t seen fit to really clear this up. For my part, I think that the Pope could change this if he felt that it should be changed, but I agree the point is likely moot as long as Benedict is Pope.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFINSIG.HTM

Try this one on for size as well.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

While I recognize that many believe this to be true, others maintain that it did not. Whether Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is infallible is ambiguous, and the Church hasn’t seen fit to really clear this up. For my part, I think that the Pope could change this if he felt that it should be changed, but I agree the point is likely moot as long as Benedict is Pope.

I tend to agree. The US supreme court is loath to reverse itself and often twists itself into knots to appear not to. I have no doubt they would change if they became convinced it was the correct thing to do.

We already have them: we call them “Sister.”

A deaconess has nothing to do with being a Nun and as a Catholic I would think you would know that.

 

[Hellisreal]

“A deaconess has nothing to do with being a Nun and as a Catholic I would think you would know that”

Spirit Meadow to jmcrae

I have to say, this may be the first time I can say I agree with Spirit Meadow on anything so far.

 

[jmcrae]

A deaconess has nothing to do with being a Nun and as a Catholic I would think you would know that.

The deaconesses of the early church did similar duties to what Sisters do today; they were not members of the clergy; ie: not female deacons.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

If Junia was an apostle as you claim, then why don’t you find any other women in high places of authority in the early church? Where is your succession of female priests?

 

[Mannyfit75]

religioustolerance.org/femclrg5.htm

Romans 16:7: Paul refers to a male apostle, Andronicus, and a female apostle, Junia, as “outstanding among the apostles” (NIV) Every Greek and Latin church Father until Giles of Rome (circa 1000 CE) acknowledged that Junia was a woman. 2,3 After that time, various writers and translators of the Bible resorted to deceptions in order to suppress her gender. For example…

These are certainly bold statements by those who are promoting female ordination.

Was it true that all the church fathers prior to 1000 believed Junia was a female?

Even is Junia was a female, is the Bible saying she was an apostle?

---

If the Church was suppressing the truth for over a thousand years, would anyone accept that the Church is a divine institution guided by the Holy Spirit, and worthy of our time and efforts? I certainly would not…

However, if female ordination was part of Sacred Tradition, I would whole-heartedly embrace it.

Mary Magdalene is the Apostles of the Apostles because she preach the Resurrection to the Apostles… Still, Jesus choose 12 Men to be an Apostle.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If Junia was an apostle as you claim, then why don’t you find any other women in high places of authority in the early church? Where is your succession of female priests?

We don’t have one. We do have devout Christian women like St. Cecilia, St. Helena,

 

[Hellisreal]

If Junia was an apostle as you claim, then why don’t you find any other women in high places of authority in the early church? Where is your succession of female priests?

My thoughts were who ordained any? I think this is merely a term of endearment and not a literal or official pronouncement.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The Early Church didn’t take this literally; otherwise religious teaching orders of women would never have come into existence.

Agreed.

Are you honestly saying you don’t think the pro-female ordination crown doesn’t have an agenda, regardless of evidence?

The evidence thus far has been against them, and they continue to push for the right. That proves they have an agenda.

Well thats a unique way to define agenda! LOL…Doesnt any group that believes its right and there continues to argue for change then have an agenda? You make it sound pejorative. The right-to-life people have an agenda too. so what? And BTW the evidence is not really against them that much.

You make an excellent point Dan, and John Paul felt strongly enough about the topic of female clergy he made sure it would NEVER happen. .

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis seals that door shut forever.
God, Thank you so much

Oh gosh I know you sure wish that would be the case.
jmcrae;2883938:

The deaconesses of the early church did similar duties to what Sisters do today; they were not members of the clergy; ie: not female deacons.

Can you cite any proof?

If Junia was an apostle as you claim, then why don’t you find any other women in high places of authority in the early church? Where is your succession of female priests?

There were plenty of women in authority. Look at Acts a bit more closely. Patriarchy as the prevailing role model was and until recently is the day. That unfortunately remains the same in a few places in the world and in some cultures. That fails to make it right.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

A few of the men here seem to be getting their shorts in a twist. Must be the thought that soon Hilliary will be president…That’s a **** buster I would expect… :bigyikes:

Sorry, it was just too good to pass up…I’ll behave now…