Juniorates

[BarbaraTherese]

I am wondering others’ opinons on Juniorates. Our Sisters of St. Joseph here in South Australia (Bl. Mary MacKillop foundress) used to have many years ago in the days of many vocations, a Juniorate College. This was a special college for college age students (13yrs old - 17yrs, at which point if they still felt they had a vocation they entered postulancy) who felt they had a religious vocation to the Order.

How do others feel about Juniorates. And perhaps not only for religious orders, but for young men considering the diocesan priesthood.

Because in some places there are a lack of vocations, I think a Juniorate for religious orders need not be one specific relgious order, but for any young man or woman considering a religious or priestly vocation. No reason either to my mind why they could not be co educational or young males and young females considering a vocation. There would be no obligations on these students and a normal college education (although in the USA I think the understanding of college is different to Australia…a Juniorate say, then, for 15 year olds or so upwards until graduation). Including in this normal education, could be instruction generally on the various religious orders and the priesthood - religious life information and spiritual life formation…perhaps members of same giving addresses, organizing open days to their particular order/seminary.

It is a thought that came to me and I am sure (name removed by moderator)ut of other members will highlight any problems or even positive aspects.

Barb

 

[bilop]

I am wondering others’ opinons on Juniorates. Our Sisters of St. Joseph here in South Australia (Bl. Mary MacKillop foundress) used to have many years ago in the days of many vocations, a Juniorate College. This was a special college for college age students (13yrs old - 17yrs, at which point if they still felt they had a vocation they entered postulancy) who felt they had a religious vocation to the Order.

How do others feel about Juniorates. And perhaps not only for religious orders, but for young men considering the diocesan priesthood.

Because in some places there are a lack of vocations, I think a Juniorate for religious orders need not be one specific relgious order, but for any young man or woman considering a religious or priestly vocation. No reason either to my mind why they could not be co educational or young males and young females considering a vocation. There would be no obligations on these students and a normal college education (although in the USA I think the understanding of college is different to Australia…a Juniorate say, then, for 15 year olds or so upwards until graduation). Including in this normal education, could be instruction generally on the various religious orders and the priesthood - religious life information and spiritual life formation…perhaps members of same giving addresses, organizing open days to their particular order/seminary.

It is a thought that came to me and I am sure (name removed by moderator)ut of other members will highlight any problems or even positive aspects.

Barb

I assume this is something like a High School Seminary.

In the U.S., many seminaries do have college programs (ages 18-22). The men who want to, live at the seminary and attend college at a nearby Catholic College.

High School Seminaries have gone away. Some dioceses do have programs that provide special events and training for boys at Catholic High Schools, but not dedicated schools.

I think that, given the trend in society at large for people to make life decisions at a later age (career, marriage, etc.), the vocation decision will tend to be made closer to age 30 than 18. So, I don’t know if specialized institutions geared at teenagers is a good use of scarce resources.

I think there should be good vocation programs in Catholic High Schools, and a broader vocation effort in the parishes, targeting men from age 10 to 50.

God Bless

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I assume this is something like a High School Seminary.

In the U.S., many seminaries do have college programs (ages 18-22). The men who want to, live at the seminary and attend college at a nearby Catholic College.

High School Seminaries have gone away. Some dioceses do have programs that provide special events and training for boys at Catholic High Schools, but not dedicated schools.

I think that, given the trend in society at large for people to make life decisions at a later age (career, marriage, etc.), the vocation decision will tend to be made closer to age 30 than 18. So, I don’t know if specialized institutions geared at teenagers is a good use of scarce resources.

I think there should be good vocation programs in Catholic High Schools, and a broader vocation effort in the parishes, targeting men from age 10 to 50.

God Bless

Thank you for commenting, Bilop:thumbsup:

The reason I did give some thought when Juniorates come to mind is that I have wondered how many young teenagers do give serious thought to the religious life or diocesan priesthood, and then as time goes on with the multitude of distractions of modern life, this intial spark is quenched.

I think there should be good vocation programs in Catholic High Schools, and a broader vocation effort in the parishes, targeting men from age 10 to 50.

Thank you for the above, I think one study period set as a regular part of Catholic high school/college carriculum is a good idea, including having religious or diocesan priests give an address with questions and answers. I think also that a regular vocation program for parishes targeting both teenage young men and young women and another for adult men and women is a good idea also.

Blessings and regards…Barb

 

[chicago]

I assume this is something like a High School Seminary.

In the U.S., many seminaries do have college programs (ages 18-22). The men who want to, live at the seminary and attend college at a nearby Catholic College.

The term “college” in many cultures (used to be this way in the U.S., also) means secondary education of the high school level. So, indeed, what she’s talking about is more of the traditional high school type program for dioceses and religious communities which used to be more widespread.

I suppose it could be argued that the renaissance of collegiate level (in the U.S. understanding of that term) programs has simply moved the bar up a few years (or back a few years?) from what used to be traditional beginnings for discernment programs.

High School Seminaries have gone away. Some dioceses do have programs that provide special events and training for boys at Catholic High Schools, but not dedicated schools.

In the U.S., yes. In some other countries they are still vibrant or renewed. A few religious communities in the U.S. and the Diocese of Brooklyn still run high school seminaries. Chicago’s closed in 2007.

I think that, given the trend in society at large for people to make life decisions at a later age (career, marriage, etc.), the vocation decision will tend to be made closer to age 30 than 18. So, I don’t know if specialized institutions geared at teenagers is a good use of scarce resources.

I think there should be good vocation programs in Catholic High Schools, and a broader vocation effort in the parishes, targeting men from age 10 to 50.

God Bless

While I generally would find agreement with these thoughts, I also recognize that the genesis of vocations often is planted at an early age - even in childhood. As such, I do think that more should be done to offer particular guidance and discernment opportunities to youth. The lack of this in our era is all too common, leaving a significant want.

I would fully support the re-establishment of “Juniorates” and “Minor Seminaries” as one way to better expose young people to the lifestyles of those who have accepted such vocations in the hope that they would develop a better appreciation of such and discern their own call - potentially to joining in the way of life by sponsoring religious communities and the presbyterate.

 

[bilop]

While I generally would find agreement with these thoughts, I also recognize that the genesis of vocations often is planted at an early age - even in childhood. As such, I do think that more should be done to offer particular guidance and discernment opportunities to youth. The lack of this in our era is all too common, leaving a significant want.

I think this is true, but I think it needs to happen in the parish, and earlier than high school. I think HS seminaries just won’t yield that many vocations in today’s environment. Better to have priests actively fostering vocations in the parish, among boys, teenagers and men.

God Bless

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Chicago:

While I generally would find agreement with these thoughts, I also recognize that the genesis of vocations often is planted at an early age - even in childhood. As such, I do think that more should be done to offer particular guidance and discernment opportunities to youth. The lack of this in our era is all too common, leaving a significant want.

These are my thoughts also, that the vocation to the religious life and/or the priesthood can come at an early age, even in childhood indeed. Once the teenager, and with hormones changing, is exposed to our modern world and its many distractions and values, some not only questionable but against Catholic teaching, major distractions occur and the initial spark is quenched. In a minor seminary or juniorate, there would still be exposure to the world etc. but also to both worlds, our secular society and all its distractions, as well as one’s spiritual life and development … with insight into the lifestyles and goals, ideals, of the religious life and/or priesthood. Such minor seminaries and juniorates could accommodate boarding students as well as those residing in their family homes.

I would fully support the re-establishment of “Juniorates” and “Minor Seminaries” as one way to better expose young people to the lifestyles of those who have accepted such vocations in the hope that they would develop a better appreciation of such and discern their own call - potentially to joining in the way of life by sponsoring religious communities and the presbyterate.

… …and by there being no obligation on them to go ahead and follow an actual religious and/or priestly vocation, the concentrated instruction and formation in a sound spiritual life will certainly not go astray in any way whatsover.

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I think this is true, but I think it needs to happen in the parish, and earlier than high school. I think HS seminaries just won’t yield that many vocations in today’s environment. Better to have priests actively fostering vocations in the parish, among boys, teenagers and men.

God Bless

The thought has crossed my mind that the reason we do not have young vocations, certainly here in Australia, is that now our teachers in schools on all levels are no longer nuns, priests or brothers…not much at all is known about the lifetsyle etc. of priests (diocesan and Order priests, nuns, religious and brothers) and possibly what our youth do know about these vocations may not be at all accurate.
I was educated all my life by religious sisters and certainly these passed on much information about the religious life generally and about their Order in particular. I can recall vividly a postulant visiting our school and giving a talk on the religious life within her Order and the journey of her own vocation, with questions and answer period. She had, incidentally, attended a Juniorate of her Order and gave us information on this also - and with question and answer period.

I wholeheartedly agree that there should be in all parishes a mandatory program laid out by diocesan leadership in relgious etc. vocations…including one for parents and all interested. Vocations in the main probably are fostered in the home - though not always at all. Such a program every so often could have a religious or priest both diocesan and belong to a religious order could give periodic talks with questions and answers. Such a program need not meet every week - perhaps bi-weekly or monthly.

Also our Catholic schools need some sort of program with a priest (diocesan and Order priest) or religious giving a couple of talks yearly on the life and lifestyle, including the contemplative.

A ten year old girl I knew, when sighting my rosary beads, asked what they were. She attended a Catholic school, though her parents were not Catholics, so there was no formation nor information in her home. She also asked me about the religious life and from her questions I could glean that her knowledge was not even basic, rather quite distorted and totally inaccurate, false understandings, in some questions. I dont mean such is widespread but where there is smoke, there is fire. And I was truly shocked that though attending a Catholic school all her school life, she had no knowledge at all of what rosary beads were.

Barb

 

[chicago]

I think this is true, but I think it needs to happen in the parish, and earlier than high school. I think HS seminaries just won’t yield that many vocations in today’s environment. Better to have priests actively fostering vocations in the parish, among boys, teenagers and men.

God Bless

I don’t disagree entirely, but would argue for both/and. A high school seminary isn’t as likely to be effective if boys (or girls for a religious institution’s school) aren’t exposed and encouraged by both parents and priests/religious in the parish from an early age. But these vocations will not be fostered if there are not programs (whether schools or other support systems which can approach the matter with a certain intensity and supportive, safe environment for discernment) to complement such primary endeavors.

 

[chicago]

The thought has crossed my mind that the reason we do not have young vocations, certainly here in Australia, is that now our teachers in schools on all levels are no longer nuns, priests or brothers…not much at all is known about the lifetsyle etc. of priests (diocesan and Order priests, nuns, religious and brothers) and possibly what our youth do know about these vocations may not be at all accurate.
I was educated all my life by religious sisters and certainly these passed on much information about the religious life generally and about their Order in particular. I can recall vividly a postulant visiting our school and giving a talk on the religious life within her Order and the journey of her own vocation, with questions and answer period. She had, incidentally, attended a Juniorate of her Order and gave us information on this also - and with question and answer period.

I really do think that positive exposure is key. That spark of curiosity and interest in a child is often what can lead to exploration and deepening of understanding, appreciation, and involvement in a way of life and commitment.

Such a program need not meet every week - perhaps bi-weekly or monthly.

When we are dealing with young people, I think that consistency and intensity is important. As adults, we are frequently busy. So “once a month” often seems about right for things. But for youth, having something which is predictable and available in an ongoing manner can provide better assistance, imo.

Also our Catholic schools need some sort of program with a priest (diocesan and Order priest) or religious giving a couple of talks yearly on the life and lifestyle, including the contemplative.

“including the contemplative” - YES! So often this is easily overlooked in lieu of the more easily seen and understood for its effect endeavors in the active ministries. But, even in the active, one must be introduced as to what the value is of committing oneself to it dedicatedly as a way of life which requires particular sacrifice. Otherwise, someone will simply ask, “Why can’t I just do this as any other job without the additional constraints of religious life or priesthood?”

A ten year old girl I knew, when sighting my rosary beads, asked what they were. She attended a Catholic school, though her parents were not Catholics, so there was no formation nor information in her home. She also asked me about the religious life and from her questions I could glean that her knowledge was not even basic, rather quite distorted and totally inaccurate, false understandings, in some questions. I dont mean such is widespread but where there is smoke, there is fire. And I was truly shocked that though attending a Catholic school all her school life, she had no knowledge at all of what rosary beads were.

Not only is this sort of thing all too common. But, it might be argued that even among those who have received a good introduction to the faith and catechesis, their ability to understand it at a deeper and more meaningful level is frequently undeveloped or distorted. Just look at all the adults who were taught by old skool sisters who base too much of their reservations about faith on some negative experience in school.

 

[chicago]

These are my thoughts also, that the vocation to the religious life and/or the priesthood can come at an early age, even in childhood indeed. Once the teenager, and with hormones changing, is exposed to our modern world and its many distractions and values, some not only questionable but against Catholic teaching, major distractions occur and the initial spark is quenched.

Read Cardinal Mundelein’s letter on the establishment of a new building for the growth of Chicago’s minor seminary. Written in 1916, it seems poignant still today:

windows.org/mund1.jpg

Just a short excerpt:

“And not today or yesterday, but for many years past, has the conviction entered the minds of watchful pastors of souls that the time had come when something must be done to protect the tender shoots of priestly vocation as soon as they showed themselves in the clean, pure hearts of good bright young boys in our schools, to shelter them not only from the killing blasts of sinful temptation, but also from the chilling atmosphere of modern materialism, the selfish craving for ease, the inordinate love of money, the exaggerated spirit of independence, which comes not only into our schools and colleges, but enters right into the heart of the home itself.”

He then goes on to tell of the lessons learned from the traditional practice of introducing young people into the ways of life of priests and religious from an early age via schools specifically set out for the purpose of nurturing vocations in youth.

In a minor seminary or juniorate, there would still be exposure to the world etc. but also to both worlds, our secular society and all its distractions, as well as one’s spiritual life and development … with insight into the lifestyles and goals, ideals, of the religious life and/or priesthood. Such minor seminaries and juniorates could accommodate boarding students as well as those residing in their family homes.

I wish that more minor seminaries (which were often largely boarding schools) would have accomodated day students and tried not so much to separate them from the world as to engage it while forming them.

… …and by there being no obligation on them to go ahead and follow an actual religious and/or priestly vocation, the concentrated instruction and formation in a sound spiritual life will certainly not go astray in any way whatsover.

While I certainly agree with you here, I do believe that a significant part of the problem which led to the closing of minor seminaries was a certain economic concern. The fact is that everyone always wants to know, “How many vocations are you turning out?” And there is definite pressure to see the numbers up. Otherwise, it isn’t seen as worthwhile or money well spent.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Not only is this sort of thing all too common. But, it might be argued that even among those who have received a good introduction to the faith and catechesis, their ability to understand it at a deeper and more meaningful level is frequently undeveloped or distorted. Just look at all the adults who were taught by old skool sisters who base too much of their reservations about faith on some negative experience in school.

Thank you for your post and comments, Chicago. Re the above, and not understanding our Faith at deeper and more meaningful levels, I think, the problem is one of poverty of information and formation once one leaves say a Catholic school. I know in our parish that every Sunday, the readings are taken as the subject of the homily…and while this is right and proper I think, there is not enought ‘tying up’ with the truths of our Faith. I have never, for example, certainly in the past 10 years at least heard a homily on the Sacrament of Reconiliation and yet Father week after week is in the Confessional around half an hour prior to Mass and most by far Saturday evenings no one attends.

I find our Catholic newspaper (free to all parishes and quite a number of copies ) rather boring and not too often I read a really good article that holds my real attention and reflectively…most of it is comprised of newsy type articles and photos connected to the diocese in some way more or less.

And adults turned away from their Faith because of some negative experience and usually with leadership, is quite common as reason stated for no longer practising their Faith.

In the main, I dont know the answers. But then I suspect that the correct questions and perhaps on diocesan level are not being pondered in the first place. I really do find, and my personal experience in Australia and not at all thus extensive experience either, that The Church is disconnected (out of touch) with the person in the pew type Catholic. There is a ‘joke’ that floated round. Our priests are so busy studying pastoral care that they don’t have time for pastoral care.
Another term that has floated around is “D&M” which translated means “Deep and Meaningful” and it is a derogatory term for a person who takes their Faith very seriously.

I really dont know the answers and wonder if the right questions are being asked. But then I suffer mental illness and known to be a sufferer, and my feeling is that when I speak, many ears close.
I truly and really wish I were not so critical at times re The Church locally - it truly grieves me, but one can only play the cards dealt and no use to state what is not so, or apparently so.

Thank you for the comments again…regards…Barb

 

[chicago]

I really dont know the answers and wonder if the right questions are being asked. But then I suffer mental illness and known to be a sufferer, and my feeling is that when I speak, many ears close.

You speak quite accurately and wisely. While some might find a too easy excuse to dismiss your insight, often it is more a matter of the truth being difficult to face which really confronts them.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

You speak quite accurately and wisely. While some might find a too easy excuse to dismiss your insight, often it is more a matter of the truth being difficult to face which really confronts them.

Possibly:thumbsup: …and thank you for your kindness!..
Laus Dei

…I think it all has to happen on diocesan level or even higher up…that.the right questions are being asked to any existing problem at all including the vocations question. Having established that the right questions are being asked, then once one has a potential answer or answers, it becomes a further question of “how can we implement this?” …and review it from time to time… But as I said, I am not sure at all on a few levels indeed in The Church, not at all, that the right question(s) has been or is being asked in the very first place.
The one only really great thing (no positive without a corresponding negative and the reverse - a question of sighting that opposite) about being a sufferer of mental illness is that one’s reputation, more or less, is shot to pieces anyway…i.e. freedom …nothing to protect in the first place

Barb

 

[Genesis12345]

Dear Barb,

---

In the US, the sisters have what is called a postulancy which lasts for about 6 months to see if they like it or not, than they have a novitiate, which by Canon Law has to be exactly one year. During the novitiate, they learn about the Order or congregation and also they are voted on at the end of the year to continnue to profess first vows or temporary vows. They continue with their education and if the Order finds them to be a good religious than they take perpetual vows for life (even though they can still leave the order.) As far as I know, I do not know of any sisters that have a junorate.

---

With regards to the men religious, they use to have high school seminaries, but eventually, this faded out. They had the concept that they should be with both men and women and be more “exposed” to the world.

---

It is the same way with men religious, because I was a former Franciscan Brother. I went through postulancy for 6 months to give me an idea of what religious life would be like, than I went on to my novitiate for exactly one-year [at that time, if someone in your family died, you were not permitted to leave the novitiate–this was for the sisters, too.] Of course, all of that has changed. And for the men religious, after novitiate, they would be voted on to continue with the Order or asked to leave. If some were studying for the priesthood, they would start their theological studies, and those for the brotherhood, would find a trade. However, in my case, I left on my own because I started right after high school which they do not encourage anymore. They would rather that you have at least two years work experience prior to entering a religious community or the diocesan priesthood which I think is a good idea. Later on in life, I was accepted for the priesthood, but decided I could do just as much as a “layperson.” I hope this made things more lucid for you. With kind personal regards, I am
In His Divine Mercy,
Genesis12345

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Genesis…good to catch up with you again on CAF!

In the US, the sisters have what is called a postulancy which lasts for about 6 months to see if they like it or not, than they have a novitiate, which by Canon Law has to be exactly one year. During the novitiate, they learn about the Order or congregation and also they are voted on at the end of the year to continnue to profess first vows or temporary vows. They continue with their education and if the Order finds them to be a good religious than they take perpetual vows for life (even though they can still leave the order.)

This is very similar for sure to Australia. Here all the religious orders I know of anyway also have “aspirancy” which means someone discerning can have a live in experience with the community, living the life, and for I think up to three months. It varies. After that if they are accepted, they can enter postulancy.

As far as I know, I do not know of any sisters that have a junorate.

With regards to the men religious, they use to have high school seminaries, but eventually, this faded out. They had the concept that they should be with both men and women and be more “exposed” to the world.

Here, when juniorates did exist, not that there were many at all, they were boarding schools for young girls from around 13yrs of age, I think, and in their college years, who were considering a vocation to a particular religious order. If they continued to discern until it was time to leave college, they then went straight into postulancy; however, I think if juniorates were not necessarily boarding schools and discerners could still live at home and live a completely ‘normal sort of life’ that they would have normal exposure ‘to the world’. By the time they left the juniorate at the end of college and if they still felt they did have a vocation they could obtain employment and retain contact with the order until they were old enough to enter postulancy.
Something like that was what came into my mind, although the fine details did not.

It is the same way with men religious, because I was a former Franciscan Brother. I went through postulancy for 6 months to give me an idea of what religious life would be like, than I went on to my novitiate for exactly one-year [at that time, if someone in your family died, you were not permitted to leave the novitiate–this was for the sisters, too.]

The above also applied here. Although the novicate was a compulsory two years in the main I think. I don’t know what Canon Law said back then, or even what it says now in this regard.
Certain pre V2 to my knowledge, one could not return home for any reason, even death in the family. Although my cousin in noviciate in the St. Joseph Order went to the airport in habit with permission to see her brother off to Vietnam. It was a front page newspaper picture here of a novice kissing a soldier (her brother of course.) Although the pic did draw smiles.
This was pre V2 and something totally unusual in a religious order, to be able to leave the noviciate back then.

Of course, all of that has changed. And for the men religious, after novitiate, they would be voted on to continue with the Order or asked to leave.

Same here to my knowledge.

If some were studying for the priesthood, they would start their theological studies, and those for the brotherhood, would find a trade. However, in my case, I left on my own because I started right after high school which they do not encourage anymore. They would rather that you have at least two years work experience prior to entering a religious community or the diocesan priesthood which I think is a good idea. Later on in life, I was accepted for the priesthood, but decided I could do just as much as a “layperson.”

I am not too sure what applied in religious life for a male. Another of my cousins was in the diocesan seminary pre V2 and he did go home for holidays.
Thank you for sharing some of your story:thumbsup:

I hope this made things more lucid for you. With kind personal regards, I am
In His Divine Mercy,
Genesis12345

Every little bit sure helps, Genesis:thumbsup:

Blessings and with my regards…Barb

Edit: As I envisage, which is purely imaginary, the benefit of a Juniorate is that the spark of a vocation perhaps first felt on entering the teens (which I have heard rather often can happen) would be fostered with full information passed on re the religious life, including the contemplative, and the diocesan and religious priesthood. These young people could live at home as normal, and prior to actually entering the life, they would secure employment and thus, exposed to ‘the world’ and with full infomration on religious and priestly life could continue to discern with full iformation on what exactly the ‘were discerning’.
When old enough, they could do an aspirancy live in with whatever Order etc. they might be considering, and after that if still discerning, then enter postulancey.
Something like that

 

[chicago]

But as I said, I am not sure at all on a few levels indeed in The Church, not at all, that the right question(s) has been or is being asked in the very first place.

So what would you say are the “right questions?”

 

[BarbaraTherese]

So what would you say are the “right questions?”

Hi Chicago…as I said, I don’t know. I am only posing the question. I have read a few articles about the potential why of lack of vocations, and I am wondering if our leadership has asked if the problem is other than our youth distracted by “the world”, and lacking generosity to respond to a vocation…and also in familiies, parents being unsupportive of potential vocations in the family. I guess I wonder if that is the whole problem or is it something else …the idea of juniorates came into my mind. I am not saying that they are answers, rather asking what other members think of juniorates and whether they could be a possible productive option. I dont mean juniorates as in pre V2 days connected to a specific Order - rather something more general - co-educational - with a focus on religious life and the priesthood generally for the interested as well as a normal college education… certainly colleges for those who may be interested in the religious life and priesthood where information can be passed on about these vocations at a relatively early point in their growth when the spark of interest in a religious or priestly vocation is still alive. Such juniorates would not go astray at all, because I envisage they would also provide for a firm foundation in the spiritual lie.

What I have read may well be correct, and I may well be wrong and the problem is isolated correctly…and if so, it then becomes a question of how to respond to the problem in a productive and positive way. And perhaps even this is being done. As I said, I dont have answers, I am only posing herein a question re juniorates.

Perhpas juniorates are all “pie in the sky” and a useless suggestion…and I started this thread, looking for discussion and to be shot down in flames if necessary.

I have covered a few things in previous posts in this thread.

Thank you for posing the question…Barb