"Just a bunch of rules"

[RKS89]

I have a family member who is outright anti-Catholic. We’ve had many debates that end with them simply saying, “I just don’t like the Catholic Church, I like my church and that’s that.” Despite me offering articles, documents and citations from the Catechsim, they simply don’t care to know if we’re right or if there are in fact issues with their own theology (to which, they reply, they just don’t “need those kinds of answers”). One argument that gets thrown out a lot is the accusation of legalism and man-made rules. Now legalism seems largely to be a matter of perception- someone may perceive the strict dress of the Amish as legalistic, but if you ask them they’d certainly beg to differ with you. Also, plenty of pious actions can easily turn into legalism and we as Catholics probably grasp that better than other denominations. I really want to get at the root of this line of thinking, however. This individual often cites scripture that seems to free us from any kind of law or law-giving authority, that we are now “priests” and don’t need sacrifices, and that, while the Law was a good thing, man twisted it into the enormous burden it became to Jews at the time of Christ.

As a former Protestant I understand where they’re coming from- it seems to stem from a misunderstanding and over-emphasis on the Pauline epistles, as well as some other things. Rather than deal with individual attacks on the Church I want to be able to analyze my family members position clearly and say ok, this is how and why you think this but you’re starting off on the wrong foot and here’s why, now let me show you how well the Church has put this same thing together. (If that makes sense). So how can I connect all these dots, both scriptural, historical and ecclesial, into a cohesive approach? I’m looking for solid body shots as opposed to dealing with each individual accusation.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Point out that all the essential elements of Catholic belief and practice were well-established well before the final determination of the New Testament canon in the late fourth century.

Let them know that there are trusting the fourth century’s church decision as to what is truly the inspired Word of a God, the same church that had bishops, priests, a pope, sacred tradition, the sacrifice of the mass, and veneration of mary and the saints.

 

[Zaccheus]

Does your family member insist on starting conversations on this subject, and then attack the Church? If so you might try saying something like this:
“I understand you like your church and dislike mine. In that case could we just agree to not talk about it?”

 

[RKS89]

I’ve played all those cards. Church history is what caused my reversion, so I’ve made the argument for continuity of doctrine through the centuries. I guess a better way to word my issue is Why is the idea of law or rules so detestable to my non-denom family member? It was an issue I didn’t need much convincing of when I studied early church history and doctrine so where apologetics are concerned, I’m not so sharp. They seem to be under the impression from Paul and the Atonement that God no longer has any regulations on worship, church etc. A good example of one of their arguments is to cite David dancing, basically making the claim that David is rejoicing and praising God. To which I respond sure, but as a devout Jew David was also observing the Sabbath, performing ritual observances. Where I get lost is translating that reality into the New Covenant and the Church. Music is another point of contention- they feel like any Christian music is suitable for Sunday service and we don’t need organs and choirs and chant to please God. But that’s a kind of individualism history, and therefore the Church, just doesn’t jive with. Not to say you must have Gregorian chant everywhere, but it isn’t my opinion that holds clout in theological matters- that’s why we have the Church!

 

[RKS89]

We talk a lot about faith because it drives and directs our lives, and I like to think there’s a mutual respect there. When I first came back to the Church they proposed that Constantine “invented” Catholicism. It wasn’t an attack, and it wasn’t said maliciously, it was an honestly held belief they had picked up in school. So I laid out why that wasn’t accurate and it was taken well. And since then I’ve cleared up alot of the typical assumptions some non-Catholics have and, in general, those arguments aren’t met with hostility. It’s kind of an “oh, thanks for sharing” attitude. But the big hang up for them is the idea we’re just following rules. For example I’ve explained confession from a scriptural and historical viewpoint, but we often end up at the same point- you’re just following some rule or law and that’s not why Christ died, we’re all priests now etc. So we have civil and often good conversations, and neither of us are twirling our mustaches waiting for the next time we see each other so we can slip the other up. I’m just not sure how to say yes, we DO need these doctrines and precepts as defined by the Church.

 

[Zaccheus]

It’s good to hear the discussions are civil and fruitful.

Here’s a suggestion.

You say the Catholic Church is ‘just a lot of rules’. But when you drive a car you have to follow a lot of rules–traffic rules, legally enforced car maintenance requirements, licensing and the like. Without these rules traffic would be a chaotic mess and the accident and injury rates would climb to horrific levels.

That does not mean that driving a car is only about ‘obeying a lot of rules’. The purpose of cars is transportation. The rules are just there to make driving safer, easier and get us to our destinations more quickly.

The rules you object to in my Church are there to help us reach our goal; to help us discern and obey God’s Will, and to be saved. You may disagree with specific rules but they’re not pointless. They are there for a good purpose.

 

[Mary888]

I don’t know if this is a strong argument, but here is what I am thinking about rites, priests and worshiping Christ:
I don’t think you can talk with a Protestant outside the biblical text. They reject tradition, what Saints have been saying over 2,000 years, that is to them just people’s opinion. Also they doubt miracles and signs all come from God (which is not necessarily a bad thing). The only part in the Bible where rites are explained is the Old Testament. But they claim that Jesus said no to the Old Law altogether because because he ripped the cloth at the altar at some point. But I challenge them to find a passage in which Jesus tells everyone to give the old prophets, especially Moses who gave the Mosaic Law.
I find this passage to be quite clarifying in Jesus’s attitude towards the Old Law (I used the KJV version since it’s a Protestant Bible)
Acts - chapter 3:
“21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 **Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.”
If we are all children of Abraham now through faith then there must be a Law of rites we are under. Because “faith alone” was never even mentioned in the Old Testament.

 

[Francis]

2 Peter 3:15_18 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

1 Corinthians 14:40 but all things should be done decently and in order.
Sirach 16:27 He arranged his works in an eternal order, and their dominion for all generations; they neither hunger nor grow weary, and they do not cease from their labors.

.Unrighteous musics cannot be sung in the Church because God is Holy and he does every thing i order Our God is a God of order
Leviticus 10:10 10 You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean;
-Wisdom 6:10 For they will be made holy who observe holy things in holiness,
and those who have been taught them will find a defense.

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

Mark 9:42 [ Temptations to Sin ] “If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea.

1 Corinthians 4:17 For this reason I sent you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ Jesus, as I teach them everywhere in every church.2 Timothy 2:2 and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people (the Church) who will be able to teach others as well.

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

2 Peter 1:21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
2 Peter 3:16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

 

[neophyte]

One argument that gets thrown out a lot is the accusation of legalism and man-made rules.

Immediately tart acting like a total jerk - make snide remarks about his clothes, rummage around in her purse, chug his drink… then when he complains, accuse him of being hung up on legalism and a bunch of man-made rules. That leads into an observation that there are rules that govern being in a relationship.

Well, maybe not really, but it’s what I always think of and wish I had the nerve to try. It’s like how if someone’s been playing at relativism, the next time they ask me to pass the salt I hand them the jelly, or my phone or something. “What the… that’s not salt.” “According to you…”

 

[Francis]

Continue to RKS89

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter,not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
1 John 2:3 Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. 4 Whoever says, “I have come to know him,” but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 whoever says, “I abide in him,” ought to walk just as he walked.
Mathew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

Hearers and Doers
Matthew 7:24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its fall!”

 

[RKS89]

You supplied a lot of Scripture I had not considered or remembered, thank you!

 

[RKS89]

I do admit I’ve used some low-brow logic in similar debates with people I’m not related to, like asking something along the lines of well, if we don’t need rules and we’re all priests and have the guidance of the Holy Spirit than I should be able to go to the forest and have “church” there. And if they agree to that silly premise I say I’ll be attending church from now on at my favorite bar because, you know, no rules!

 

[RKS89]

I see the logic in the argument here. It’s been difficult for me to formulate a good analogy without actually advocating for legalism. Its especially difficult when dealing with someone who doesn’t believe the Church has any authority and that Christianity is essentially about 1. Getting saved and 2. Reading the bible until you die and 3. Maybe try to do some good stuff but definitely don’t do it because you think it’ll get you to heaven because that’s covered in step 1.

 

[Vico]

simply don’t care to know

Catechism

IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[RKS89]

Unfortunately I’ve not found the Catechism particularly helpful in this instance. Actually the first time I talked about the CCC was the first time the accusation of rules and legalism came about. Something along the lines of we need a huge “rulebook” that’s essentially extra-biblical. And to be fair I felt similarly when I got my catechism. But I read JPII’s intro and calmed down pretty quick
The ironic thing in all of this is a favorite topic of discussion for us is relativism, but when you’re not willing to search out truth relativism is often your next logical port in the storm, no matter how much you may gnash your teeth at it in other areas.

 

[Vico]

Unfortunately I’ve not found the Catechism particularly helpful in this instance. …

I understand. Really I was posting this to point out that when a person does not care to know it may be through blindness by the habit of sin.

 

[RKS89]

That’s a good point. In this case it may just be good old fashioned anti-Catholic upbringing.

 

[Francis]

Finally Only The Catholic Church has the sole right to interpret the scriptures and to correct errors Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. 2 Timothy 3: 13 But wicked people and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, 15 and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.7
2 Peter 1:20-21 20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Jude 17-23Warnings and Exhortations
17 But you, beloved, must remember the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 for they said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, indulging their own ungodly lusts.” 19 It is these worldly people, devoid of the Spirit, who are causing divisions. 20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; look forward to the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on some who are wavering; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; and have mercy on still others with fear, hating even the tunic defiled by their bodies.

 

[Wannano]

I do admit I’ve used some low-brow logic in similar debates with people I’m not related to, like asking something along the lines of well, if we don’t need rules and we’re all priests and have the guidance of the Holy Spirit than I should be able to go to the forest and have “church” there. And if they agree to that silly premise I say I’ll be attending church from now on at my favorite bar because, you know, no rules!

I am not sure why you think it is silly premise to have “church” in a forest. Having “church” is communing with God. I would challenge you to try sometime to go into the forest even alone and pray asking God to speak to you in the totally quiet atmosphere.

The Bible tells us that Jesus met and conversed with all kinds of sinners in various places. Another challenge to you since you have a favorite bar is to be like Jesus, next time go in there carrying your Bible and approach the lonely or downcast person and ask if you can share your faith with them. You may very well have “church” there. Does the CC have rules against praying in the forest or witnessing to others in a bar?

 

[TheLittleLady]

My best advice, do not debate with family.

Your job is to be a living, breathing, smiling, hugging, example of the Catholic faith. Your non-Catholic family members should see such unexplainable peace and joy and love from you that they wonder where it comes from.

God has a big team, he will send someone else to do the apologetics, you focus on the love.