Just a thought from a lutheran

[onenow1]

IMHO if we can really concede, that Jesus is Mary’s son and not some false construct of history; then honestly enter into a Realationship with Jesus, wouldn’t Mary come into our conversation with Jesus after all He picked her in eternity.

God Bless

 

[jlhargus]

Why not just pray to Christ, He promised to hear us?

.JL: Remember that the next time you want to ask someone in you congreation to pray for you.

 

[JonNC]

Thanks for the information Jon. Much appreciated. If I may add my two cents, it seems to me that the entire basis for the “tepid” rejection lies not in a rejection of the practice per se, but in the rejection of the teaching authority of the Church. To Catholics, the argument is easily rejected, as we accept the authority of the Church to teach such matters as a matter of Sacred Tradition that comes to us from the Apostles, whether or not such “warrant” is expressly to be found in Scripture. However, we would also say that the scriptural warrant for asking the saints for intercession (whether in Heaven or on Earth) does find its roots in the teachings of the Old and New Testaments.

Christmas Peace,
Robert

And also with you, Robert.
I hadn’t thought about it in terms of authority, other than my remark about the practice being both east and west. When one reads Melanchthon, it seems his biggest concern is:

Again, the adversaries not only require invocation in the worship of the saints, but also apply the merits of the saints to others, and make of the saints not only intercessors, but also propitiators. This is in no way to be endured. For here the honor belonging only to Christ is altogether transferred to the saints. For they make them mediators and propitiators, and although they make a distinction between mediators of intercession and mediators [the Mediator] of redemption, yet they plainly make of the saints mediators of redemption. 15] But even that they are mediators of intercession they declare without the testimony of Scripture, which, be it said ever so reverently, nevertheless obscures Christ’s office, and transfers the confidence of mercy due Christ to the saints. For men imagine that Christ is more severe and the saints more easily appeased, and they trust rather to the mercy of the saints than to the mercy of Christ, and fleeing from Christ [as from a tyrant], they seek the saints. Thus they actually make of them mediators of redemption.

This may speak to a misunderstanding of the practice. Or, it might speak to an abuse of the practice in that time. In any event, this seems to be the problem, not the authority of the Church.
That’s not to say that I don’t understand your take on the matter. I do.

Jon

 

[15thClub]

JonNC

What you read from Catholics here on this board on this subject IS NO DIFFERENT than what the Catholic Catechism teaches. If you have the priviledge of viewing Episode 4 in Father Barron’s ‘Catholicism’ Series or Chapter 4 in the book, same title, I humbly challenge you to find any difference or inconsistency from what is stated about the Blessed Mother here in Father Baron’s work or the rest of the RCC. Why? Because the message and the doctrine are vetted and approved by the Vatican. And as a former LCMS myself let me be just a little candid here. Luther, Melanchton, and Zwingli were theologians that in all honesty, did not have a whole lot of love lost for Holy Mother Church. The early 16th Century I have to admit was a pretty rough road for those who bucked Rome. Melanchton had a lot more antipathy for the Church than Luther, I’ve read that much. In fact, there is a body of evidence out there that Melanchton and not Luther was the primary protagonist in the break with Rome. Thus, how much of that antipathy found its way into Melanchton’s work to justify Melanchton’s position? The Church is very explicit in its instruction and direction. Mary and the rest of the Communion of Saints are revered, adored and NOT worshiped. We believe with compelling evidence to our position that all of them are in Heaven, in a state of grace and yes, I truly hope they are praying for me…and for you.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

This may speak to a misunderstanding of the practice. Or, it might speak to an abuse of the practice in that time. In any event, this seems to be the problem, not the authority of the Church.

Very interesting. It’s not hard to conclude that there were probably good Catholics who thought of the saints as less severe that Christ “the King of Kings” and therefore fled to the saints instead - based upon their own personal experiences living under a monarchy. But I think that after 2+ centuries of democratic reform, and the effective removal of monarchy as governmental norm in the west, the concern raised by M. is now de minimis.

My favorite analogy from a saintly nun who taught my confirmation class was this: If a friend of yours at work gets a wonderful promotion, wouldn’t you ask him to “put in a good word for you” with the “Boss.” No fear of Christ in that analogy, and certainly no misunderstanding concerning my “friend” in heaven’s ability to mediate redemptive grace.

Great info Jon! I learned something new today!

Christmas Peace,
Rob

 

[Barbkw]

We say a prayer of petition to Mary asking her to pray for us at the time of our death:

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. (Luke 1:28 - Archangel Gabriel to Mary)
Blessed are you amoung women and Blessed in the Fruit of your womb, Jesus
(Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth / Mother of John the Baptist to Mary the new Ark of the Covenant)

Holy Mary, Mother of God (Council of Ephesus, 431 A.D.)
Pray for us, sinners. Now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.

P.S. Martin Luther’s comments about the Virgin Mother:

davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm

 

[TimothyH]

Why not just pray to Christ, He promised to hear us?

The reason lies in how Christ has chosen to reveal himself to us. God has chosen to reveal Christ as a King. That is the whole thrust of Matthew’s Gospel - The proclamation of the kingdom, the establishment of the kingdom, the granting of authority by the king, the tearing down of the old kingdom, etc.

In the Old Testament, the queen was always the mother of the king. A king would not appoint his wife to the position of queen because many wives were daughters of other kings who had been given in marriage as part of military alliances. You don’t want the daughter of a potential rival king as your queen! So kings would appoint their mother to the position of queen.

Bathsheba, Solomon’s mother, was Solomon’s king. You can read about how he brought her a throne and she sat as his right hand in 1 Kings. If you look at 1 and 2 Chronicals, it lists every king and along with each king, tells us who the king’s mother was. That is because the king’s mother was the queen. If you

And in the Old Testament, and many monarchies outside of Israel/Judea, if you wanted to speak with the king, you went through the queen. No one would dare walk into the throne room unannounced or without first being summoned, not even the king’s wife - they would be put to death instantly for such disrespect. That is how king’s were revered. And so if you wanted an audience with the king, to ask for protection in your part of the kingdom, or for a job for you son, or to give the king some gift, you went through the queen.

And he said, “Pray ask King Solomon – he will not refuse you – to give me Ab’ishag the Shu’nammite as my wife.” Bathshe’ba said, “Very well; I will speak for you to the king.” So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.” (1 Kings 2:17-20)

Christ is a king. Christ is the King of kings. That is how God chose to reveal himself to us. And Mary is the queen of Heaven and earth. We can read about Mary as Queen in Revelation 12. That Christ the King would appoint his mother as queen is clear from the tradition of Jewish kings. We still have a Queen Mother to this day in England. And Mary is his the King’s Queen Mother.

And we go through the Queen to go to the King. That is how God set things up. That is how God revealed truth to us.

-Tim-

 

[JonNC]

=15thClub;8726791]JonNC

What you read from Catholics here on this board on this subject IS NO DIFFERENT than what the Catholic Catechism teaches.

I have no doubt of that.

And as a former LCMS myself let me be just a little candid here. Luther, Melanchton, and Zwingli were theologians that in all honesty, did not have a whole lot of love lost for Holy Mother Church. The early 16th Century I have to admit was a pretty rough road for those who bucked Rome. Melanchton had a lot more antipathy for the Church than Luther, I’ve read that much. In fact, there is a body of evidence out there that Melanchton and not Luther was the primary protagonist in the break with Rome.

My understanding was somewhat opposite, the Melanchthon, at least early on, was more inclined to reconciliation, but you may be right.

The Church is very explicit in its instruction and direction. Mary and the rest of the Communion of Saints are revered, adored and NOT worshiped.

I have no doubt of this, either.

We believe with compelling evidence to our position that all of them are in Heaven, in a state of grace and yes, I truly hope they are praying for me…and for you.

I am certain that they are.

Jon

 

[Barbkw]

Salva Regina

""Hail Holy Queen (John 19:27 - “Woman, behold your son. Behold, your Mother.”)

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! (as her Son forgave those who murdered Him, she must also forgive them of their sin. Luke 2:35 - “Indeed, a sword will pierce your own soul, too, so that the inner thoughts of many people might be revealed.”)

Our life, our sweetness, and our hope! (Mary is God’s creature and by her acceptance she became the Holy Spirit’s spouse and then Mother to the Son of God (who like Adam and Eve in the beginning of creation) was without original sin.

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. (Genesis 3:23 “So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and He sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made.”

Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us;
and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

The role of a “Queen Mother” in Israel’s history who intercedes as an advocate for her people:

1 Kings 2:19

"So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king arose to meet her, bowed before her, and sat on his throne; then he had a throne set for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right. 20Then she said, “I am making one small request of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Ask, my mother, for I will not refuse you.”

 

[grandfather]

I also believe that it is perfectly appropriate for us to recognize that the saints do pray for us, and that we do well to pray the Father listen to their prayers on our behalf.

Jon

There are countless miracles attributed to the intercession of Mary and the saints, many quite extraordinary. According to the benefactors of the miracles and those who prayed for them, they report, or witness, that the intercession of the saint was sought. The saint was asked for help.

Believe what you will about what is perfectly appropriate about how to pray. Accept the theology of Luther and his followers, or that of the saints whose intercession helps bring about so many miracles.

If you believe in the Communion of Saints, what does thata mean? Can you communicate with a departed soul in heaven, or not? According to your statement above you make God the intermediary between you and the saints. You have it backwards.

In all communions something is shared. There is a back and forth. By your rejection of this, in faith, you are missing out on heavenly treasure created by God to be communicated to His people through one another.

Read revelations. The four and twenty elders burn incense before God’s throne and it is the prayers of the saints. The prayers were brought to God by intermediaries, the four and twenty.

The reformers and the reformed say it is improper to ask these intermediaries to take our prayers to God. Instead you want to ask God to answer their prayers, in general, whatever they are. You make God the intermediary between you and the saints, while Protestants claim they should not have saints as intermediaries, because they go directly to God.

For goodness sake, why is it either or? Why can’t you pray to God with the saints?
It is your intentions the saints carry to God. If you do not tell them what they are, or invoke them by name, they may still hope for your good, but the communion is not there.

It is broken and the break is caused by Luther, Melancthon, et al. By their error you are being cheated out of heavenly treasure, real friendship with the souls in heaven, relationship, in the love of God.

Not only are you being deprived of these riches, but even worse you are denied the comfort and tender solicitude and care that can only come from Mary your mother. Protestants reject her. They despise her prayers and insult and demean her. Mothers take a lot of abuse and still love their children.

Imagine if someone walked into a friend’s home as a guest. Maybe the friend is your superior at work. He introduces you to his wife and mother and children. You tell him you do not want to speak with them, because you can speak directly to the boss.

Ignoring Mary insults Jesus. Protestants insist they want nothing to do with her, the woman who is the Mother of God, Mother of Salvation, Mother of the way, Mother of Truth, Mother of Life, Mother of the Bread come down from heaven, the Queen Mother of the people of God and Queen of Angels.

It is not just a matter of missing a great blessing, but it is rude. Try getting to know her. It won’t happen if you ask God to listen to her prayers. that is not a bad thing to do, but to get to know her you have to communcate directly. You might be happy if you do and be in store for a theology adjustment.

Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

 

[PJM]

=themattman;8723538]Ok so I need someone ro tell me why as a Protestant it seems you are praying to Mary? This is not an attack. I am trying to understand your faith, because I fell that God has been calling to the Catholic faith for years and I keep running because I don’t understand. And because my wife is very ati catholic.
Anyway if we could start with this and then move on it would be helpful.
Merry Christmas everyone. The Lutheran looking for the truth
Matthew

Mary: Why Catholic Pray “to Her”?
It seems like a good idea to begin this accounting with a correct understanding of both, how Catholics pray and why we pray “to Mary and the Saints”. Some may be surprised to discover BOTH have a biblical foundation. Prayer is an essential “tool” to gain favor with God, to Give gratitude to God and even is necessary for our salvation as verified by the bible itself.

Gen.25: 21 “And Isaac prayed to the LORD for his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived.”

Exod.32: 32 “But now, if thou wilt forgive their sin – and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written."

**Dan.9: 20 **“While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy hill of my God”

**Jesus speaking to the Peter, James and John:Matt.26: 41 **“Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Luke.21: 36 “But watch at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand before the Son of man”

2Cor.1: 1 “You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us in answer to many prayers.

Tob.12: 15 “I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

Rev.5: 8 “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

For the sake of clarification: ALL of these references for “the saints” are US! Just as the Angels have direct access to God, so too do Mary, His MOTHER, and the Saints of the CC. Not only do they present our petitions to God personally; BUT they ALSO add their own prayers on-top of ours. Doubling the effect! And that explains WHY we pray “to them.”

While it is true that we do “pray to them”; if is FAR more accurate to understand that we are praying THROUGH THEM as intercessors on our behalf.

Luke 1:26-35
“And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: **Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women **… Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. … The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

***The most common Catholic Prayer to Mary is the “Hail Mary”***Hail Mary
Full of Grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed are YOU among [all] women
And Blessed in the FRUIT of your womb: Jesus
Holy Mary
Mother of God
Pray for us sinners NOW
And at the hour of our Death Praying THROUGH MARY to God].
Amen *

God Bless you tto mY Friend,
Pat*

 

[Newsy]

When I was starting my “journey home”, I had a tough time with Mary and the Saints. I understood that, if we believe Christianity is true, then we must believe that there are believers in heaven. In order for them to be in heaven, they must be righteous b/c there is no evil or sinful thing in heaven. If they are righteous, then as noted earlier, “the prayers of a righteous man availeth much”. So, as long as we are asking for prayers, like we do from our friends and family, it is OK. If it becomes more, say believing they are some sort of deity, that is wrong. I realized it wasn’t the concept I had a problem with, but the use of the word “pray”. As a former protestant, we only recognized prayer to God.

 

[juno24]

The only difference is we ask the Saints to pray for us. Protestants don’t ask the dead to pray for them. We do. In fact, one of my so called “big guns” is St. Joseph. He has helped me with his intercession many times. Try it, it works. Pax.

Good answer, for the most part. The only problematic part is the bolded. We do not ask the dead to pray for us; those in Heaven are very much alive.

 

[Barbkw]

I was shocked when I learned that non-Catholics tend toward the belief that risen souls are "dead’ or that they are in some type of forlorn “Limbo”.

 

[fred_conty]

John 19;25
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. Seeing his mother and the disciple he loved standing near her, Jesus said to his mother, "Women, this is your son’. Then to the disciple he said, “this is your mother”. And from that moment the disciple made a place for her in his home.

And from that moment, all of us disciples made a place for her in our homes(lives).

A mother all can turn to.

 

[15thClub]

The “communion of saints” is cited in the Apostles Creed and not the Nicene Creed. If I remember my LCMS Order of Service, the Apostles Creed is used in the Order of Service (no communion) beginning on Page 5 of the LCMS Hymnal and the Nicene Creed is used in the Order of Service (communion) beginning on Page 15 of same hymnal. I’m going to have to dig out and dust off my Luther’s Small Catechism to see what Brother Martin had to say about the “communion of saints” in his explanation of the Apostles Creed or do a net search. I remember that the LCMS affirms the communion of saints but then again, how many saints the LCMS recognizes may be (as I recall) smaller than that of the RCC. I guess to put into simple terms, the communion of saints is a resource that should not be ignored. I’ll take their prayers and intercessions on my behalf 24/7.

 

[JonNC]

=15thClub;8728817]The “communion of saints” is cited in the Apostles Creed and not the Nicene Creed. If I remember my LCMS Order of Service, the Apostles Creed is used in the Order of Service (no communion) beginning on Page 5 of the LCMS Hymnal and the Nicene Creed is used in the Order of Service (communion) beginning on Page 15 of same hymnal. I’m going to have to dig out and dust off my Luther’s Small Catechism to see what Brother Martin had to say about the “communion of saints” in his explanation of the Apostles Creed or do a net search.

No need to dig.

The Third Article.

Of Sanctification.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

What does this mean?–Answer.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

And here is the Large catechism.
bookofconcord.org/lc-4-creed.php

I remember that the LCMS affirms the communion of saints but then again, how many saints the LCMS recognizes may be (as I recall) smaller than that of the RCC. I guess to put into simple terms, the communion of saints is a resource that should not be ignored. I’ll take their prayers and intercessions on my behalf 24/7.

I should say we do not ignore the communion of saints. As the Apology says,
[QUOTEOur Confession approves honors to the saints. For here a threefold honor is to be approved. The first is thanksgiving. For we ought to give thanks to God because He has shown examples of mercy; because He has shown that He wishes to save men; because He has given teachers or other gifts to the Church. And these gifts, as they are the greatest, should be amplified, and the saints themselves should be praised, who have faithfully used these gifts, just as Christ praises faithful business-men, 5] Matt. 25:21, 23. The second service is the strengthening of our faith; when we see the denial forgiven Peter, we also are encouraged to believe the more that grace 6] truly superabounds over sin, Rom. 5:20. The third honor is the imitation, first, of faith, then of the other virtues, which every one should imitate according to his calling. 7] These true honors the adversaries do not require. **They dispute only concerning invocation, which, even though it would have no danger, nevertheless is not necessary. **
]

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=grandfather;8727229]There are countless miracles attributed to the intercession of Mary and the saints, many quite extraordinary. According to the benefactors of the miracles and those who prayed for them, they report, or witness, that the intercession of the saint was sought. The saint was asked for help.

Intersting.

Believe what you will about what is perfectly appropriate about how to pray. Accept the theology of Luther and his followers, or that of the saints whose intercession helps bring about so many miracles.

I don’t see it as either/or. As I said, we recongnize that the saints do pray for us.

If you believe in the Communion of Saints, what does thata mean? Can you communicate with a departed soul in heaven, or not? According to your statement above you make God the intermediary between you and the saints. You have it backwards.

The ability of the saints to respond or not to our incercessory prayers is not a detemination of ur belief in the Communion of Saints.
It have made God an intermediary in no way. When we pray the Prayer of the Church, we ask God to hear our prayers, IOW, the prayers of all who pray. I ask God to hear your prayers. That doesn’t make God an intermediary. In the same way, I ask Him to hear the prayers of the saints in the Church Triumphant.

In all communions something is shared. There is a back and forth. By your rejection of this, in faith, you are missing out on heavenly treasure created by God to be communicated to His people through one another.

I’m not rejecting it. I’m simply stating that, without a command, promise, or example, I cannot put my full faith in their abaility to hear our individual intercessions. What I do know is that God hears our prayers, and theirs on our behalf.

Read revelations. The four and twenty elders burn incense before God’s throne and it is the prayers of the saints. The prayers were brought to God by intermediaries, the four and twenty.

The reformers and the reformed say it is improper to ask these intermediaries to take our prayers to God. Instead you want to ask God to answer their prayers, in general, whatever they are. You make God the intermediary between you and the saints, while Protestants claim they should not have saints as intermediaries, because they go directly to God.

I answered this above.

For goodness sake, why is it either or? Why can’t you pray to God with the saints?
It is your intentions the saints carry to God. If you do not tell them what they are, or invoke them by name, they may still hope for your good, but the communion is not there.

It is broken and the break is caused by Luther, Melancthon, et al. By their error you are being cheated out of heavenly treasure, real friendship with the souls in heaven, relationship, in the love of God.

Listen, you are welcome to request intercession of God’s saints in the Church Triumphant, and I won’t criticize you for it. I think there is enough scriptural evidence that they are aware of the struggles of those of us in the Church Militant (see Luke 15:7), and I thank God not only for their prayers, but for the comfort those who practice invocation receive from the practice. Not every Catholic practices intercessory prayer, and I don’t either.

Not only are you being deprived of these riches, but even worse you are denied the comfort and tender solicitude and care that can only come from Mary your mother. Protestants reject her. **They despise her prayers and insult and demean her. ** Mothers take a lot of abuse and still love their children.

This is hogwash. I do not dispise the Blessed Virgin, and I certainly don’t demean her in any way. If you want to convince me of the benefits of your position and piety, demonizing and insulting mine probably isn’t a good way to do it.

Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

I am certain she, and the rest of the saints do.

 

[rjarmendariz]

As Roman Catholics we not only have a Heavenly Father but a Heavenly Mother too. Mary, whom gave birth to the long awaited Messiah is the Mother of the Church. Mary is the Mother of God the Son, whom is One with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. She is indeed the Blessed Mother. As such , we can ask our Mother to pray for us to the Lord Our God in Christ Jesus!

Remember that Martin Luther, as a Catholic Agustinian German monk prayed to the Blessed Mother too. You may want to read Luther’s Small Catechism before reading his Big Cathechism to get an idea about what and how he saw Mary, if you haven’t done so. Hopefully you’ll be able to somehow come to grips with the Blessed Mother and open your heart to Her!

RJA

 

[Captain_America]

Ok so I need someone ro tell me why as a Protestant it seems you are praying to Mary? This is not an attack. I am trying to understand your faith, because I fell that God has been calling to the Catholic faith for years and I keep running because I don’t understand. And because my wife is very ati catholic.
Anyway if we could start with this and then move on it would be helpful.
Merry Christmas everyone. The Lutheran looking for the truth
Matthew

I’m really pleased that you’re asking!

It seems there are SO many protestants I run into who just endlessly repeat old (often reformation era) doggerel about church practices. . . and of course, back then, these were slams against the church; heated propaganda.

To my mind, I sometimes wonder if protestant ministers INTENTIONALLY mislead their parishioners about Catholic teachings, in order to either keep their jobs/income or their denominations afloat!

It’s nice to see you use your faculties and get information from a good source.