Just Because I'm Catholic...

[Scottgun]

Catholics should not be attempting to post on forums hostile to Faith without permission and guidance from a priest or spiritual director.

Scott

 

[PauloFreire2]

We became ‘work friends’, that is, ‘cubicle buddies’. Nonetheless, I always considered him a bit strange.

One day he told me his wife would never allow me into their home because I’m Catholic. The comment gave me a great sense of relief. I felt justified in cutting off our friendship immediately. I always sensed there was something ‘wrong’ with the dude.

 

[PauloFreire2]

“…without permission and guidance from a priest or spiritual director.”

“Cast not your pearls amongst swine.” – Jesus

 

[Scottgun]

“Cast not your pearls amongst swine.” – Jesus

That’s one reason certainly–the other is that it can put someone even with a strong faith at risk.

Scott

 

[Montalban]

Coincidentally, I am picking through Chesterton’s 1908 masterpiece, Orthodoxy. Kind of hard reading, but well worth the effort.

“People have fallen into a foolish habit of speaking of orthodoxy as something heavy, humdrum and safe. There never was anything so perilous or so exciting as orthodoxy.”

–G.K. Chesterton

Yes, when I first heard about that I thought it was about THE Orthodox Church!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

There is one place in scripture where it uses the phrase ‘faith alone’ and it is in James. The rest of scripture does not contradict James. James says, “14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?..17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. …shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? …Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?”

No, I don’t see that. Because Romans teaches that a man is justified by faith apart from works. Also notice in the passage you gave that it says, “show me your faith without works; and I will show you my faith by my works.” This clearly indicates the context is faith before man. Otherwise, James contradicts Romans.

It does not contradict the rest of scripture. Christ is very clear as well that you must live the life which He calls us to live. It is not simply a declaration of faith. Those works may be a expression of your faith but they are works none the less.

Oh the works are an expression of your faith alright. Before man…exactly like James says. But you equate those works with being necessary for salvation. THAT contradicts Scripture. We must live the life Christ lived to be HIS DISCIPLE. One can be saved without being His disciple. One just won’t find many rewards waiting for him in heaven. And you’re right; it is not simply a declaration of faith. It is a matter of truly having faith.

Read Matthew25;31-45

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

Ok.

I never said that you were not a Christian. I accept that you and other protestants are Christians. But the doctrine of salvation by ‘faith alone’ is both unbiblical and unChristian.

Thank you. Then why do Catholics beat around the bush and subtly say we’re not Christians. I disagree…the doctrine of salvation by faith alone is both biblical and Christian. For one to presume they can do the work to guarantee salvation that only Christ can do is very very bad.

I never said you were a non-believer. If that is how you interpreted what I said then read it again.

I’m glad you didn’t say that. But to tell someone their faith is unbiblical and un-Christian is calling them a non-believer.

 

[jimmy]

So Romans is your template for what is true? You judge the rest of the bible by Romans? No James does not contradict Romans, but he also does not teach faith alone. Neither does Paul. James is very clear that faith alone is dead. This is the only passage in scripture where the phrase faith alone appears and it is negative. Faith alone is a false doctrine according to James whether you like it or not. Works justify. Yes faith is necessary, but by itself it will only condemn you. As James says, even the devils have faith. The council of Trent does a good job of explaining how faith and works go together. Works without faith are meaningless just as faith without works are meaningless.

**Before man…exactly like James says. **

What are you talking about ‘before man’. This is the second time you have used the phrase in this post. What is it supposed to mean? James never uses the term and he never implies it. Christ never uses it and He never implies it. The passage is very clear which I gave you along with every other statement by Jesus Christ.

It is a matter of truly having faith.

The devils have far more faith than you have. They know Christ to exist and they accept it. But they reject Him and God because they don’t want to live the life. The fact that the demons are in hell is a contradiction of what you are saying.

For one to presume they can do the work to guarantee salvation that only Christ can do is very very bad.

It is not the act of gauranteeing your salvation. That is an impossibility. It is obedience to Christ. Christ died for our salvation but it is still our responsibility to become like to Him. He will give us the aid, we must say yes to Him.

 

[jimmy]

**

I’m glad you didn’t say that. But to tell someone their faith is unbiblical and un-Christian is calling them a non-believer.

**

nonsense. By that same rule you would also declare me to be a nonbeliever because a large part of what I believe you would call un-Christian and unbiblical.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

---

nonsense. By that same rule you would also declare me to be a nonbeliever because a large part of what I believe you would call un-Christian and unbiblical.

Nonsense. Not if you believe in Jesus Christ for your salvation.

Note that I don’t believe you do if you have to go through purgatory. If Jesus Christ didn’t fully cleanse you from all your sin in this lifetime, then we don’t know the same Jesus.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

So Romans is your template for what is true? You judge the rest of the bible by Romans? No James does not contradict Romans, but he also does not teach faith alone. Neither does Paul. James is very clear that faith alone is dead. This is the only passage in scripture where the phrase faith alone appears and it is negative. Faith alone is a false doctrine according to James whether you like it or not. Works justify. Yes faith is necessary, but by itself it will only condemn you. As James says, even the devils have faith. The council of Trent does a good job of explaining how faith and works go together. Works without faith are meaningless just as faith without works are meaningless.

No, but I also don’t ignore Romans. Is the Pope your template for what is true? If you are right, then you contradict Romans. It teaches that we are justified by faith “alone” apart from the law. The alone is not explicit but it’s implicit, seeing as we are justified apart from works or keeping the law.

What are you talking about ‘before man’. This is the second time you have used the phrase in this post. What is it supposed to mean? James never uses the term and he never implies it. Christ never uses it and He never implies it. The passage is very clear which I gave you along with every other statement by Jesus Christ.

How come you don’t understand a simple statement especially after I already explained what I meant? When one man says “show me your faith without works and I’ll show you my faith by my works”, that is talking about proving your faith to man. Man cannot read your heart as God can so he needs to see works backing up your profession of faith. I thought I already explained this. Au contraire, the context of the book does imply it.

The devils have far more faith than you have. They know Christ to exist and they accept it. But they reject Him and God because they don’t want to live the life. The fact that the demons are in hell is a contradiction of what you are saying.

But the devils aren’t born again. I am. There faith is not the same faith that we have. Their “faith” is that God is God. Our faith is IN God and that God saves us…and He does it by faith.

It is not the act of gauranteeing your salvation. That is an impossibility. It is obedience to Christ. Christ died for our salvation but it is still our responsibility to become like to Him. He will give us the aid, we must say yes to Him.

**How do we become like Him? By reading the Word. By transforming our minds through the reading of His Word. Scripture alone anyone? We read the Word, keep in prayer, and trust in God and HE makes us like Him. **

 

[goitalone]

Ever heard of the phrase GET YE BEHIND ME SATAN?

I rest my case!

 

[CatholicGal1977]

hoosierdaddy:

If you truly believe that then I look forward to visiting my local catholic church and partaking of communion with them. Since I’m a Christian, I have the right to.

This is funny because I graduated from a Baptist church and when we went to Washington D.C. for our senior class trip we went to a Baptist chucrh down there where my principla was good friends with a pastor in VA and even though he, his wife, and the other students I was with were Baptist they weren’t allowed to partake in that church’s communion.

So you see my Protestant friend, not even Protestants of one denomination are welcome to partake in communion with other Protestants of the same denomination.

Just because my principal and his wife were Baptist, it didn’t give them the right to partake in another Baptist church’s communion.

So does that then mean you have the right to storm into a catholic church and take communion there? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

hoosierdaddy:

I see a lot of whining about protestants treat you guys but have you taken a look around at the sarcastic comments about protestants on here?

I have and, quite honestly, many are warrented.

hoosierdaddy:

If we’re all Christians how come I can’t go to the catholic church down the street and partake of communion? Yet a catholic can go to just about any protestant church and be allowed to partake. Who’s intolerant?

Whatever! I just told you about visiting a Baptist church on my senior class trip in HS and how NONE of us could partake in communion reagrdless if were truly were Baptist or some other religion.

So before you open your BIG mouth again, make sure what you’re saying is indeed true.

hoosierdaddy:

…the authority is the Bible itself.

Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the ONLY source of authority?

You know, Protestants talk about how we Catholics worship Mary, the Saints, and the Pope YET many of them hold the Bible up in such high regards that they seem to, at times, worship the Bible. Now that’s scary.

hoosierdaddy:

…this still doesn’t prove apostolic succession or that priests are always right

We’re human beings for God’s sake, no one is ALWAYS right! Execpt God, of course!

As for the Bible proving apostolic succession, St. Paul wrote to St. Timothy, 'I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have through the imposition of my hands" (2 Timothy 1:6). Through this ancient rite, St. paul ordained St. Timothy as a priest, and eventually consecrated him as a “bishop” (the Greek root word literally means “overseer”) - that is, one who would oversee God’s flock and share in the ministry divinely given to Paul and the other apostles.

Alternatively:

After Judas defected, the remaining eleven apostles appointed the disciple Matthias as his successor (see Acts 1;20-26). The term translated in this passage as “office” (1:20), and applied to Juda, is in Greek episkopen - literall, “episcopacy” or “bishopric” If Judas, as an apostle, occupied the office of bishop, then by logical extension all the apostles can be considered to have accupied that office.

Given that the apostles were bishops, and one of them was replaced by another bishop after his death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, then we have here an explicit example of apostolic succession in the Bible… Clearly, apostolic succession isn’t later invention of the Church, but a reality that existed long before and recognized by the spostles of Christ after he returned to Heaven.

hoosierdaddy:

I’m sorry, I don’t always make myself clear. I know that God is the authority but I believe that He gave us Scripture as the final authority for all faith and practice. We know God through His Word. So I agree with you that God is the authority but I hope you see what I mean. Hey what was “the great crash”? The first century believers had the OT and the various NT letters and gospels were shared with them.

Yes, God gave us Scripture as authority BUT it’s not the ONLY source of autjhority. Please tell me how you arrive at that.

I believe there is more than to just saying, “I’m saved!” and then 50 years later re-affirming you’re saved without having really done anything inbetween, such as good works.

 

[CatholicGal1977]

jimmy:

If James didn’t say that faith alone is dead and that works are necessary and that works justify then maybe we would accept faith alone. Or if Christ did not say that those who did not feed Him would go to everlasting fire we might believe it. The fact is that your faith is unChristian and unbiblical.

hoosierdaddy:

But the whole context of the book is faith before man. If faith without works is dead according to your unbiblical belief, the rest of Scripture is a lie as it blatantly contradicts it.

jimmy:

There is one place in scripture where it uses the phrase ‘faith alone’ and it is in James. The rest of scripture does not contradict James. James says, “14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?..17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. …shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? …Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?”

It does not contradict the rest of scripture. Christ is very clear as well that you must live the life which He calls us to live. It is not simply a declaration of faith. Those works may be a expression of your faith but they are works none the less.

hoosierdaddy:

No, I don’t see that. Because Romans teaches that a man is justified by faith apart from works. Also notice in the passage you gave that it says, “show me your faith without works; and I will show you my faith by my works.” This clearly indicates the context is faith before man. Otherwise, James contradicts Romans.

Oh the works are an expression of your faith alright. Before man…exactly like James says. But you equate those works with being necessary for salvation. THAT contradicts Scripture. We must live the life Christ lived to be HIS DISCIPLE. One can be saved without being His disciple. One just won’t find many rewards waiting for him in heaven. And you’re right; it is not simply a declaration of faith. It is a matter of truly having faith.

Revelation clearly tells us that we will be judged by what we have and haven’t done in this life. That means what we have and haven’t done works (deeds wise).

Here, let me spell works out for you Protestant friend of mine:

“The Lord is just and loves just deeds,” the psalmist says, and “the upright shall see his face” (Psalm 11:7). These words summarize the Catholic view (which is also the Biblical view) of salvation: Because God is just and loves justice, if we hope to “see his face” - that is, to live with him in friendship forever - then we ourselves MUST become “upright,” as he is. The First letter of Peter puts it this way: “Be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, ‘Be holy because I [am] holy’” (1:15-16).

How do we become holy? Catholics agree with other Christians taht we can’t save ourselves, and we can’t earn Heaven on our own. Rather, we are saved by grace - God’s merciful aid, given to enable us to become holy as he is holy. It’s an absolutely unmerited, free gift of God, amde possible through our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and his atoning death on the cross for us.

Certainly, our faith in Christ’s power to transform us is essential to our salvation by God’s grace. But a mere intellectual assent to the truths of the gospel isn’t enough. Scripture insists that faith of itself, if it doesn’t have works, is dead (see James 2:14-26).

By cooperating with grace, we become like God, fit to live with him forever.

In this way, good works, and the transformation of character they contribute to and reflect, are indeed necessary for salvation. God rewards the good works we do, works that he himself has made possible (see Matthew 16:27; 25:31-46). “To the obedient,” he promises, “I will show the salvation of God” 9Psalm 50:23).

Oh, and the Revelation pasages I was referring to are Revelation 20:11 and Revelation 2:23:

Revelation 20: 11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 2:23 … and I will repay each of you according to your deeds"

 

[CatholicGal1977]

It’s my experience that Protestants pick and choose what they want to believe from the Bible and disregard the rest. If it doesn’t jive with their beliefs, it gets tossed. And in cases like this where we’re discussing it doesn’t matter what what Catholics say because they’re right and we’re wrong. Hoosierdaddy is proving that quite nicely, especially when it comes to works (deeds) and spitting out Romans the way he did.

Like VociMike, said… it’s funny how they spout off the truth shall set you free yet not all truths are welcomed tot he table. Only theirs.

Yes, hoosierdaddy. Romans teaches that a man is justified by faith apart from works and James contradicts it by telling us faith WITHOUT works is dead, but… that doesn’t mean one passage is more correct that the other and in the end Revelation tells us that when we stand before God and he opens the book of Life the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works and that God will repay each one of us according to our deeds.

Now, if I have a choice of saying, “I’'m saved!” and in believing Scripture as the ONLY authority and doing no works (deeds) after that until I die versus where I am now as a Catholic who’s saved, believes in more than just the Bible as authority, and does charitble deeds all the time then I definitely choose the later one full-knowing what Revelation tells me.

 

[rr1213]

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar CatholicGal1977.

 

[geraldffff]

God bless you and I hope you change your attitude toward your Protestant brethren in the new year. And I have learned something in my short time here. Not EVERY Catholic wishes myself and the rest of my Protestant brethren to be brought before the magisterium and sentenced to death.

Wow!!! Where is this stuff about the Killer magisterium from??? If it is not so it it not bearing false witness? Why would a protestant want to take what we believe is the REAL body and blood of Jesus and eat it as we do if they do not believe it is the real body??? Sorry hoosierdaddy that you have had such bad experiences with Catholics. Im praying for your peace of mind.

 

[geraldffff]

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar CatholicGal1977.

You so right. Hoosierdaddy sound like some Catholic has caused him/her great pain but hooserdaddy also sound sincere. It is Jesus way and wish that we should be firm and forthright but not return blow for blow. I hope and pray that Jesus helps me to be what Jesus needs me to be.
NIV Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

NIV Romans 15

1We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: “The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.”[a] 4For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

 

[colliric]

It’s my experience that Protestants pick and choose what they want to believe from the Bible and disregard the rest. If it doesn’t jive with their beliefs, it gets tossed. And in cases like this where we’re discussing it doesn’t matter what what Catholics say because they’re right and we’re wrong. Hoosierdaddy is proving that quite nicely, especially when it comes to works (deeds) and spitting out Romans the way he did.

Like VociMike, said… it’s funny how they spout off the truth shall set you free yet not all truths are welcomed tot he table. Only theirs.

Yes, hoosierdaddy. Romans teaches that a man is justified by faith apart from works and James contradicts it by telling us faith WITHOUT works is dead, but… that doesn’t mean one passage is more correct that the other and in the end Revelation tells us that when we stand before God and he opens the book of Life the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works and that God will repay each one of us according to our deeds.

Now, if I have a choice of saying, “I’'m saved!” and in believing Scripture as the ONLY authority and doing no works (deeds) after that until I die versus where I am now as a Catholic who’s saved, believes in more than just the Bible as authority, and does charitble deeds all the time then I definitely choose the later one full-knowing what Revelation tells me.

You do know this is one of the reasons why Martin Luther wanted to get rid of the book of revelation… It clearly supports the catholic doctrines, including prayers to the saints which they will present to god, purgatory(Nothing unclean shall enter heaven)and the Catholic Canon of the bible(It references Deutocanon doctrine, of the seven angels presenting prayers to god, found in Tobit 12:15)…

This book never sat right with protestants, yet they still accept it as canon despite the fact it clearly confirms the catholic canon. They seem to conveniently overlook the fact that John used the Greek Septuagint as his old testament.

 

[Abira]

There is value to freedom of association and the freedom to establish a place, a website, where people of like mind can congregate and discuss matters. I’ve even seen requests by Catholics at Catholic Answers to create a Catholic-only subforum. There is also value in having different perspectives discuss important matters in a cordial atmosphere where they can disagree in a vigorous yet charitable manner. I think that Catholic Answers serves this latter function very well.

Personally I’m kinda glad that as a protestant I have been allowed to use a Catholic forum lol.

I think I have learnt more about my faith in the last few months then ever before simply because there are things, and even sections of the Bible that I have never seen discussed before.

One difference I would make though, is that I (usually anyway ) don’t come with any answers of my own… I’m more interested in a different point of view. So generally I don’t bring an aggressive militant protestantism with me, I hope.

basically I’m glad I came here (even though recently some people have been massively horrible to me lol… but just a minority of one or two and not just because I’ve been brought up protestant) and have not been kicked off simply because I’m not Catholic. I think that if that forum believed they could offer up answers, they should have been glad to offer them to the OP as many people on here ave done to me.

S x

 

[nate73]

Recently, I tried to join a Protestant forum and was denied the right to join and hold discussion in ‘OTHER CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS’ along with Protestant, non-Baptists simply because I’m Catholic.

I have read their 7-page thread about why Catholics can’t join and have read a lot of interesting things as to why we’re not allowed to join and the main reason seems to stem from the fact that at least one Protestant was converted to Catholicism as a result of a Catholic member having been allowed to join. But quite honestly, it looks like fear is the driving factor behind why Catholics aren’t allowed to join. Their forum agreement says NOTHING about being Catholic and not being allowed to post. So to me it’s religious intolerance to ban a Catholic for simply being a Catholic and no other reason. After all, we’re all Christians here, are we not?

My mom wonders why I’d want to post at a forum where they don’t care what I have to say, but to be quite honest … there are quite a few misconceptions constantly posted about us Catholics that could be cleared up in a civil manner of discussion. Not to mention, it’s not fair to call our popes “evil” and then not let us have the opportunity to rebut it.

They claim they’re not anti-Catholic, yet they say Catholicism is errored, have tried to warn people of the damnation that comes from it, that it is heartbreaknig to see the deceit that many have fallen into, and that it is better to try and persuade Catholics from following their false teaching rather than to have sympathy for them because they can’t post at their forum. One of the pastors there evn goes on to say that sympathy for Catholics is a biblical command and sympathy for Catholicism is biblical disobedience. But, quite honestly, where does it say that in the Bible? I don’t even read anything in my Bible that says sympathy for Protestants is a biblical command and sympathy for Protestantism is biblical disobedience. After all, look at how long ago the Bible was written prior to actual organized religion.

The really sad fact to all this is that Catholics are very tolerant and allow Protestants to register at their forums as so long as they respect the Catholic faith. So, why can’t Protestants be the same way? I thought being Christian meant being Christ-like and Christ wouldn’t what they’re doing.

For the record, I love being Catholic and am strong in my faith. So strong that I would NEVER leave the Church. I don’t see us as non-Christians or even mis-guided Christians for that matter. Why must fear and intolerance play such an important role as to why Protestants treat us the way they do? It’s really quite sad. Quite sad indeed.

While I agree that way to often there is a lot of Catholic bashing by protestants, I have personally as a Baptist been called a heretic, had it stated to me that the inquistion knew how to handle “heretics like me”, and been called other foul names for being a Baptist. Personally I have wondered if Catholics consider Baptists to be Christians. I know that not all Catholics are as mean spirited as the ones I have described. However, while again I sincerely apologize for other Protestants treating you so poorly, please rest assured that it is NOT all protestants that would act that way. I know that there are areas of faith that we will probably always disagree on. However rudeness by either side will only widen the gap not shrink it. Once we can consistently learn to do what Christ admonishes us to do in John 13:34-35 we will start to see some reconcilliation.