Just curious. Does the westboro Baptist Church prove faith alone is not true?

[CatholicKnight3]

Do not mean to extend to long thread that exists with the faith alone thread. However, lets discuss what Westboro does that proves that faith alone is false, and lets discuss where Paul refers to this type of false teaching that makes a mockery of everything Jesus preached.

1 Corinthians ch13

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Now, there are other areas where the Lord is clever in showing what it means to be righteous.

This is subtle but to me very signficant with this issue…

Mathew 1:19
Her husband Joseph, being a righteous man and unwilling to disgrace her, decided to divorce her secretly.

For me, this is a significant reading. Joseph being a RIGHTEOUS MAN, did not want to disgrace her publicly. Why would the Lord call Joseph righteous for this? It may be common sense to most of us, however lets wonder what kind of response Joseph should have had (according to Westboro Baptist people who apparently have faith), based on what these people do in public at the funerals of men they did not even know…

http://media1.policymic.com/site/articles/35535/1_article_photo.jpg

It is hard for me to not have hatred. It really truly is. The things I have said in my car, and yelled, and cursed…

I do not even know what I am suppose to feel…

 

[EIF5A]

I’m not sure how they disprove “faith alone”, as “faith alone” is not intended to excuse/justify immoral and sinful behavior. Practically speaking, “faith alone” = “works alone are insufficient”.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

I’m not sure how they disprove “faith alone”, as “faith alone” is not intended to excuse/justify immoral and sinful behavior. Practically speaking, “faith alone” = “works alone are insufficient”.

They claim moral behavior, and above all they claim faith. What they clearly do not imitate is that which defines love as defined by Paul.

Again, the fact that Paul wrote that if one does have faith to move mountains, but does not have love, that he has nothing.

I guess the question is can someone have love and not faith? Is that possible?

Is there a verse in the bible that says a person who has love but not faith is nothing?

 

[EIF5A]

They claim moral behavior, and above all they claim faith. What they clearly do not imitate is that which defines love as defined by Paul.

Again, the fact that Paul wrote that if one does have faith to move mountains, and does not have love, that he has nothing.

I guess the question is can someone have love and not faith? Is that possible?

Is there a verse in the bible that says a person who has love but not faith is nothing?

There are wolves in sheepskin. Or I guess in this case, wolves in wolfskin.

Anyone can claim moral behavior. But Scripture and the example set by Christ are what we should compare to.

I suppose someone can have love but not faith. There may be people in other religions that love their neighbors probably as much as any righteous Christian, but they do not have the knowledge of the true faith.

If they (westboro folks) had true Christian faith, they would not be bringing shame to the name of Christ in such a manner.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Do not mean to extend to long thread that exists with the faith alone thread. However, lets discuss what Westboro does that proves that faith alone is false, and lets discuss where Paul refers to this type of false teaching that makes a mockery of everything Jesus preached.

1 Corinthians ch13

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Now, there are other areas where the Lord is clever in showing what it means to be righteous.

This is subtle but to me very signficant with this issue…

Mathew 1:19
Her husband Joseph, being a righteous man and unwilling to disgrace her, decided to divorce her secretly.

For me, this is a significant reading. Joseph being a RIGHTEOUS MAN, did not want to disgrace her publicly. Why would the Lord call Joseph righteous for this? It may be common sense to most of us, however lets wonder what kind of response Joseph should have had (according to Westboro Baptist people who apparently have faith), based on what these people do in public at the funerals of men they did not even know…

It is hard for me to not have hatred. It really truly is. The things I have said in my car, and yelled, and cursed…

I do not even know what I am suppose to feel…

It disproves both Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. As a former Evangelical, I would look at these types of groups and say they obviously have it sooooooo wrong, but I never self examined the authority of my own position, and although it was not filth like these westboro folks, it was still built on false premise and a foundation of sand. Really I had absolutely no authority to say why there position was wrong, we both supposedly had faith and the same Bible. A simple look at history showed me clearly where the true authority of Christian doctrine lay!

 

[EIF5A]

Really I had absolutely no authority to say why there position was wrong, we both supposedly had faith and the same Bible.

It takes the Magisterium to convince someone that the westboro church is wacko?

 

[BroomWagon]

As bad as they are, for the general question in the OP, it seems others who have been “faith motivated” have done worse. Some of those cults one reads in the news from time to time so here, you seem to be singling out Westboro Baptist.

You could look at the faith of one individual who does bad things, then you could say that proves “faith alone” does not work.

Westboro Baptist are made to be boogiemen, but when they protest a funeral, their actions are limited, they can not or are meant not to interfere with an actual funeral. They are usually some distance away though they might be at the gates or near the gates of a cemetary.

 

[Jon_S_1]

It takes the Magisterium to convince someone that the westboro church is wacko?

Actually it does. Of course on the surface, we can look at them and say they are horrible non christians who espouse hate over love, but at the end of the day that is your interpretation of scripture verses theirs. A Protestant may turn to a sort of “consensus of Christianity” or “Consensus of Protestantism” as Alistair Mc Grath describes, to find your authority, but at the end of the day that is insufficient. The only way to definitively say they are wrong is to appeal to an authority that can be traced back to the Apostles themselves and is protected by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

As bad as they are, for the general question in the OP, it seems others who have been “faith motivated” have done worse. Some of those cults one reads in the news from time to time so here, you seem to be singling out Westboro Baptist.

You could look at the faith of one individual who does bad things, then you could say that proves “faith alone” does not work.

Westboro Baptist are made to be boogiemen, but when they protest a funeral, their actions are limited, they can not or are meant not to interfere with an actual funeral. They are usually some distance away though they might be at the gates or near the gates of a cemetary.

The reason they don’t interfere with funerals is because the Freedom riders-and the police-won’t let them. If they could get away with interfering with and disrupting a funeral, they would. They don’t give a jot for the grieving families they are hurting, just the attention their vile misbehavior gives them. These Westboro people are truly evil and immoral and, as the thread started so eloquently put it, they hare completely devoid of love, which is the central tenet of Christianity as commanded by Christ Himself.

 

[JonNC]

I’m not sure how they disprove “faith alone”, as “faith alone” is not intended to excuse/justify immoral and sinful behavior. Practically speaking, “faith alone” = “works alone are insufficient”.

While I do not subscribe to the equation you present, I do agree with your first comment. A true, saving faith is a faith that works through love, a quality that, from the outside looking in, seems to be missing in the actions of the Westboro group.
A true, saving faith is a faith that joyfully does the good works prepared for us to do, and it is a faith that follows the commands of God.

From the Small Catechism, Luther’s commentary on the 8th Commandment:

The Eighth Commandment.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

What does this mean?–Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

I have a difficult time seeing how the actions of the members at Westboro comply with this, even if they call it the 9th Commandment.

Jon

 

[EIF5A]

While I do not subscribe to the equation you present, I do agree with your first comment.

Yea, I wasn’t trying to make a theological point, just a clarification that sola fide arose due to heavy emphasis on works-based salvation.

 

[JonNC]

Yea, I wasn’t trying to make a theological point, just a clarification that sola fide arose due to heavy emphasis on works-based salvation.

That is certainly the history - and the fear of a perception of semi-pelagianism, too.

Jon

 

[mymamamary]

I think the WBC should be locked up in a padded room on a forsaken island

 

[SaintFrancis333]

There are wolves in sheepskin. Or I guess in this case, wolves in wolfskin.

Anyone can claim moral behavior. But Scripture and the example set by Christ are what we should compare to.

I suppose someone can have love but not faith. There may be people in other religions that love their neighbors probably as much as any righteous Christian, but they do not have the knowledge of the true faith.

If they (westboro folks) had true Christian faith, they would not be bringing shame to the name of Christ in such a manner.

thus the perils of protestantism (though westboro are obviously a fringe group among fringe groups). All the same, Christ created One literal Church. Anything outside of that is susceptible of this kind of corruption because it was made by man for man. It does not have the Divine protection of Jesus Christ. That can only be found in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[JonNC]

thus the perils of protestantism (though westboro are obviously a fringe group among fringe groups). All the same, Christ created One literal Church. Anything outside of that is susceptible of this kind of corruption because it was made by man for man. It does not have the Divine protection of Jesus Christ. That can only be found in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Ummm, you are not claiming that the Catholic Church has never had corruption, are you?

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

Ummm, you are not claiming that the Catholic Church has never had corruption, are you?

Jon

Not in its doctrine or Dogma!!!

 

[JonNC]

Not in its doctrine or Dogma!!!

Well, I’d never describe doctrine as “corruption”, but error. Corruption is behavioral, ISTM.
Failure to follow doctrine is corruption.

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

Well, I’d never describe doctrine as “corruption”, but error. Corruption is behavioral, ISTM.
Failure to follow doctrine is corruption.

Jon

Westboro has Vile and erroneous doctrine so you can’t compare vile things done by individuals in the catholic Church’s past to Westboro since it is not just their individual actions but their very doctrine.

 

[Porknpie]

I’m not sure how they disprove “faith alone”, as “faith alone” is not intended to excuse/justify immoral and sinful behavior. Practically speaking, “faith alone” = “works alone are insufficient”.

EIF5A -

James 2:22 says it most clearly, faith is brought to completion by works.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

I would show it as SAVING FAITH = Faith + Works …

James says so clearly, faith needs works to be completed…Abraham was justified not by faith but by (faith and) works.

Pork

 

[JonNC]

Westboro has Vile and erroneous doctrine so you can’t compare vile things done by individuals in the catholic Church’s past to Westboro since it is not just their individual actions but their very doctrine.

True. I wasn’t. And I didn’t. I was responding to 333’s comment about corruption. In fact, it seems to me that communions such as yours and mine, which have well-developed doctrines, would have even less of an excuse for corrupt behavior, and, indeed, both have had it.

Jon