Just Faith

[Super_Grover]

So you’re denigrating not only one person, but Jesuits as well? The link you provided is from Woodstock, a Jesuit organization.

It is also on YouTube and the speech appears to have been in the United States, so you forget to suggest that I was denigrating YouTube while being un-American. The video is five minutes long and you read my post, watched the five-minute-long video and formulated a response and posted it in THREE minutes. Those are some mad skilz.

What, specifically, in this video you linked to is objectionable in your opinion? Just posting a video link is irrelevant. What do you like, or dislike, agree to, or disagree with, on this video link you posted?

I am not trying to convince you of anything because you appear to be dismissive of the concerns about orthodoxy even when faced with multiple links and recitations of others’ experiences. Such dismissiveness is characteristic of these types of organizations as well. But for others who might happen upon this link and have concerns about this organization, there are plenty of resources now on this thread for people to start researching them. The fact that dioceses are sponsoring Trojan horses and wolves in sheeps’ clothing is not evidence that these groups are just fine. Our shepards have often been asleep on watch and sometimes quite knowingly bring in the heterodox.

SPECIFICALLY, as I mentioned before, this guy suggests that converts first embrace and implement social justice as Jezreel would define it before they may be baptized. He also teaches Catholics to be disordered in their priorities, as others on this post have well pointed out. For those who have seen these types in their churches, in their Newman Centers, on their campuses, for many years, what this guy is all about is quite obvious.

His sympathies to groups like Call to Action that use the sex abuse scandal the way opportunistic infections invade a weakened organism tells me all I would need to know. His suggested readings of folks who falsely downplay the Church’s teachings on abortion and homosexuality are problematic - SPECIFICALLY.

 

[diggerdomer]

This is not a good analogy and I don’t believe it can be applied here. In Jezreel’s case, he has a consistent and continuing alliance with dissenting ex-priests and nuns, and dissident groups, which wish to first and foremost bring a humanistic approach to social justice, relegating the need for salvation (which the true social justice teaching of the Church considers primary) to a lesser role.

Oh yes, and that’s a sad commentary for the USCCB who initially sponsored CTA, but later realized that the political motivation behind it was not in alignment with church teaching. They eventually distanced themselves from it after complaints were investigated and some bishops removed the program from their diocese. BTW, Hans Kung, the theologian who was censured by the Vatican for his flawed theology was the one whose ideology CTA embraced.

catholicmediacoalition.org/cta%20orlando.htm

I have talked to people who have registered in JustFaith (a very expensive program, I’ve been told) as one local liberal parish in town is pushing it. One woman I spoke with dropped the course after the 4th week, so concerned was she in the reading material they recommended.

You have been provided with many links written by those who have investigated it. Feel free to ignore the facts presented to you by those who have seen with their own eyes what this progressive political group, JustFaith is all about. It may be your option to ignore the warnings of those who have examined the material and determined this program is unworthy and heterodox.

I participated in JustFaith at a local parish at no cost. Nothing I encountered was contrary to the magisterium

Have you participated in JustFaith? Do you have contrary personal experience? Or are you just going on selective and subjective internet links?

 

[OpenSource]

I participated in JustFaith at a local parish at no cost. Nothing I encountered was contrary to the magisterium

Have you participated in JustFaith? Do you have contrary personal experience? Or are you just going on selective and subjective internet links?

You don’t have to take acid to know it will make you hallucinate.

 

[diggerdomer]

You don’t have to take acid to know it will make you hallucinate.

True, but whose opinion are you relying on in forming a judgment? Someone who’s actually experienced it, or has objective and rational bases for teaching such? Or just personal opinion that is devoid of objectivity?

 

[OpenSource]

‘Objective’ and ‘Rational’ are dangerous words. It smells of sola scriptura.

I suppose if I was a man of pride, I would ignore the better judgement of others and associate myself with a questionable group because I know better.

And this is the problem with dissident groups. The church says ‘no’ to something, and all of a sudden through their insubordination (pride) they know better.

 

[diggerdomer]

‘Objective’ and ‘Rational’ are dangerous words. It smells of sola scriptura.

I suppose if I was a man of pride, I would ignore the better judgement of others and associate myself with a questionable group because I know better.

And this is the problem with dissident groups. The church says ‘no’ to something, and all of a sudden through their insubordination (pride) they know better.

Ok, then I’ll no longer post anything I consider objective or rational, following this post, if it’s too dangerous to be that way.

The Church has never said “no” to JustFaith.

 

[jewells17]

‘Objective’ and ‘Rational’ are dangerous words. It smells of sola scriptura.

I suppose if I was a man of pride, I would ignore the better judgement of others and associate myself with a questionable group because I know better.

And this is the problem with dissident groups. The church says ‘no’ to something, and all of a sudden through their insubordination (pride) they know better.

This response really does penetrate the heart of so many problems regarding the Catholic Church. I have a friend that gives herself communion everyday…and I was reflecting on this today. Your response is exactly what came to my mind about this kind lady that I know. I think it is pride. She has no idea what goes into such a thing and just assumes she is worthy to do this in her home alone. She ignores the better judgement of others because of her pride…but she means well.
As far as Just Faith…it is anti-America and against the traditional Catholic Church. All I can say to you if it is in your Parish is …amscray…asap…and go to Adoration instead!

 

[Appealing_Woman]

Below is a link from the USCCB page about JustFaith which also links to the JustFaith site.

usccb.org/cchd/justfaith.shtml

 

[diggerdomer]

Below is a link from the USCCB page about JustFaith which also links to the JustFaith site.

usccb.org/cchd/justfaith.shtml

And here’s a link to an interview with the founder of JustFaith, again just so those interested can have more factual information on the program:

uscatholic.org/justfaith

Again, I’m personally not saying JustFaith is good or not, just trying to present some objective information here as opposed to what I perceive as those who denigrate it basing their opinion on hearsay and not personal experience.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

No, in fact someone posted here yet further removed third-hand information (some random quote from some other thread) that tied in liberation theology. In other words, no one posting here directly, based on their own experience of JustFaith, brought up liberation theology.

I dropped out of Just Faith due to the curriculum opposing the basic tenets of the faith, like: Contemplation subordinate to action, sin not being emphasized as the problem but systems like corporations, systems, and even the hierarchy of the Church as opposed to ecclesial based communities as needed for improvement of the world. Jesus as a radical opposing the political powers of the day was the way they presented our Lord.

It smacked of temporal salvation by the correct “use” of divine revelation. Absolutely no Church based books like the “Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church” or encyclicals, just what other people say about official Church documents. One book offered, “The Powers That Be, A Theology for a New Millennium” by “Jesus Seminar” member Walter Wink, intimated at the Church “making” Jesus divine in opposition to His actual Divinity. Wink never says that Jesus isn’t Divine but one can well deduce his meaning. Gnostic texts are used in place of the Gospel of John due to the spiritual nature of the official Gospel. The historical Jesus is emphasized and sin is de-emphasized.

The reason for a 30 week, multi-hour classes and “immersion” weekends is to re-educate Catholics in a different Christian ethic in order to fit the “humanistic” ideals of the Just Faith program. This is not a problem for Protestant groups as they have such a varied theology that this is just another view added to their personal interpretations anyway. Official Catholic Magisterial teaching is oriented to sin and to our nature based on original sin with salvation through Grace. This Just Faith program is in no way faithful to that. Liberation Theology, taught by priests of the diocese by the way, and dissent by those who ran the group is not the way to teach Catholic social justice.

In replacing action for contemplation and charity for compassion, they overturn the basis of Catholic theology. Action is for man and creation, contemplation is for union with God. If Just Faith is true, the whole Carmelite order is wrong. The correct action is only performed within a union with the Will of God. Charity means the Love of God in everything, even His Mercy for sinners and desiring the sinners repentance, whereas compassion indicates no one is judged by any objective criteria. This is the first teaching of Just Faith, compassion, but it is not compassionate to give earthly food in place of the more needed spiritual food.

In the end, my experience with Just Faith is that it ignores sin, repentance, holiness, grace, etc for a political activism that wants to make the world better by reforming the world, not the person. The person is more important, as mankind was not created in the Image of God, man himself was. It is not compatible with Catholicism and leads those who desire to be in union with God away from this union, perhaps irrevocably, perhaps not. Those who are only “lukewarm” Catholics will not be made anything other than more lukewarm.

This is my post from the previous thread mentioned in post #4. I still stand by this and, interestingly, it has been quoted in an article by Stephanie Block dealing with the problems of “Just Faith” published in a few magazines. It is disconcerting to see your “nom de guerre” used in a serious context outside this forum.

A lot of the problems with “Just Faith” is in the use of Catholic Social Teaching without using what this social teaching is based on, that is, Catholic theology. “Just Faith” seems predominately protestant and uses this theological epoch, personal interpretation, to arrive at whatever meets the need towards the “social justice” end. The book offered in the class that endorsed Gnostic gospels is particularly disturbing and that the parish Priest saw nothing wrong with it was absolutely disturbing. Their personal interpretation of Catholic Social Teaching without Catholic theology leads to support of “Call to Action”, Liberation Theology, and the use of “Sojourners Magazine” and “National Catholic Reporter” as a news source.

Being a convert, I have studied the spirituality and theology of the Church, for my own personal edification, and see many problems with “Just Faith”. Don’t take my word for it, we all should test every spirit ourselves, but there seems to be an apostasy prevalent today in Christianity in general that looks like: Love your neighbor with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, and all your strength; and love God as yourself. This is an insidious heresy very hard to combat and is what I saw in my association with “Just Faith”.

 

[Elizabeth502]

On its surface, it seems genuine enough. The fact that that the USCCB has given its approval to it cannot mean that in itself it is a “dissident group.” The problem that I have with it is its minimal diclosures on its website. You have to pay for DVD’s, etc. An organization should be willing to put its money where its mouth is. Each link on the navigation bar provides broad generalities, including a vague reference to “an immersion experience” which it calls “crossing borders,” apparently designed to give the participant an experience of the “other side” (the supposedly ‘unjust’ side) of the situation.

So I hope that the USCCB has thoroughly investigated all the materials and training associated with the group. The problem with loaded terms like “social justice” is that anyone can claim them, and many do. Same problem I have with the term “progressive.” When one arbitrarily assigns a moral value to a political position, that’s a problem. Some positions that self-proclaimed “progressives” have, other people would call regressive. Ditto for social “justice,” when self-appropriated: you can claim the official backing of a Church, even when/where your point of view, or your actions, or your statements, reveal injustice. For example, JF’s public statement, on its website, is very broad about immigration, preferring the term migration (as if borders are inconsequential or secondary).

I would never join any organization, including one approved by the Church, that didn’t disclose publicly, without payment, its philosophy, views, intentions, operations. Either the organization is being deliberately secretive, preferring an “immersion” approach (which other people might call brainwashing), or it’s a money-making scheme since they require cash for the privilege of information.

 

[diggerdomer]

This is my post from the previous thread mentioned in post #4. I still stand by this and, interestingly, it has been quoted in an article by Stephanie Block dealing with the problems of “Just Faith” published in a few magazines. It is disconcerting to see your “nom de guerre” used in a serious context outside this forum.

A lot of the problems with “Just Faith” is in the use of Catholic Social Teaching without using what this social teaching is based on, that is, Catholic theology. “Just Faith” seems predominately protestant and uses this theological epoch, personal interpretation, to arrive at whatever meets the need towards the “social justice” end. The book offered in the class that endorsed Gnostic gospels is particularly disturbing and that the parish Priest saw nothing wrong with it was absolutely disturbing. Their personal interpretation of Catholic Social Teaching without Catholic theology leads to support of “Call to Action”, Liberation Theology, and the use of “Sojourners Magazine” and “National Catholic Reporter” as a news source.

Being a convert, I have studied the spirituality and theology of the Church, for my own personal edification, and see many problems with “Just Faith”. Don’t take my word for it, we all should test every spirit ourselves, but there seems to be an apostasy prevalent today in Christianity in general that looks like: Love your neighbor with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, and all your strength; and love God as yourself. This is an insidious heresy very hard to combat and is what I saw in my association with “Just Faith”.

Sorry you had a bad experience. Wow, mine was just the opposite. Thanks for sharing.

 

[diggerdomer]

On its surface, it seems genuine enough. The fact that that the USCCB has given its approval to it cannot mean that in itself it is a “dissident group.” The problem that I have with it is its minimal diclosures on its website. You have to pay for DVD’s, etc. An organization should be willing to put its money where its mouth is. Each link on the navigation bar provides broad generalities, including a vague reference to “an immersion experience” which it calls “crossing borders,” apparently designed to give the participant an experience of the “other side” (the supposedly ‘unjust’ side) of the situation.

So I hope that the USCCB has thoroughly investigated all the materials and training associated with the group. The problem with loaded terms like “social justice” is that anyone can claim them, and many do. Same problem I have with the term “progressive.” When one arbitrarily assigns a moral value to a political position, that’s a problem. Some positions that self-proclaimed “progressives” have, other people would call regressive. Ditto for social “justice,” when self-appropriated: you can claim the official backing of a Church, even when/where your point of view, or your actions, or your statements, reveal injustice. For example, JF’s public statement, on its website, is very broad about immigration, preferring the term migration (as if borders are inconsequential or secondary).

I would never join any organization, including one approved by the Church, that didn’t disclose publicly, without payment, its philosophy, views, intentions, operations. Either the organization is being deliberately secretive, preferring an “immersion” approach (which other people might call brainwashing), or it’s a money-making scheme since they require cash for the privilege of information.

I tend to think it’s not so much the program itself, but rather how it’s adapted and implemented in each individual parish/circumstance that problems might creep in.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Sorry you had a bad experience. Wow, mine was just the opposite. Thanks for sharing.

It isn’t about the experience, it is about the heresy inherent in the program. I attended in 2008 but since Amazon still has the book by Walter Wink, “The Powers That Be” included in the “Just Faith reading list”, it seems that this program is still leading less than catechized Catholics down the wrong path. To say that Jesus was made divine by the Church, as this book states and inferring that the apostles had a problem in determining what Jesus actually taught, is heresy.

I do think that there is a possibility that the facilitators may offer a different perspective, some more orthodox than others, but the curriculum is the problem. The truth offered by the Church on the revealed Word should mean more than how one experiences the class.

Thirty weeks at 2 and a half hours per, along with several weekends, isn’t just instruction on putting into practice one’s faith, it seems to me to be re-educating people in a “different gospel”.

 

[diggerdomer]

It isn’t about the experience, it is about the heresy inherent in the program. I attended in 2008 but since Amazon still has the book by Walter Wink, “The Powers That Be” included in the “Just Faith reading list”, it seems that this program is still leading less than catechized Catholics down the wrong path. To say that Jesus was made divine by the Church, as this book states and inferring that the apostles had a problem in determining what Jesus actually taught, is heresy.

I do think that there is a possibility that the facilitators may offer a different perspective, some more orthodox than others, but the curriculum is the problem. The truth offered by the Church on the revealed Word should mean more than how one experiences the class.

Thirty weeks at 2 and a half hours per, along with several weekends, isn’t just instruction on putting into practice one’s faith, it seems to me to be re-educating people in a “different gospel”.

There’s nothing inherently heretical in the program. If you disagree, please provide objective evidence.

 

[portarica]

The fundamental flaw in Liberation Theology is that it rejects (or simply fairs to consider) the reality of Original Sin. Liberation Theology is founded on the supposition that humans are good and that the vast majority of sinful human behavior is the result of outside opression or injustice. Therefore the goal is to fight those external negative forces (usually the rich and politically powerful, though no explanation is given for where THEIR sinful tendencies come from) instead of exhorting the individual to seek the forgiveness and Grace of God through Christ.

Fighting structural injustice CAN be a good and noble thing. But only if it is an outgrowth of FIRST getting right with God via Grace. If it is a substitute for Grace, it is not just a failed philosophy, but a miserably failed philosophy. Even if one first gets the priority of Grace right, one still must be aware of proposed justice solutions that will simply result in the replacement of one tyrannical power structure with another. Failure to remember the universality of Original Sin is precisely why LT has failed so badly where tried in South America. The revolutionaries and/or government functionaries quickly become just as oppressive as those they replace.

I have no personal experience with “Just Faith” but the above should be a very good yardstick to check it out to see if it is a catholic organization or a Liberation Theology organization.

Why do you think that Catholic social justice or as you call it- liberation theology - rejects original sin?

It would seem that a theology based on the value of each person implies a unity of purpose and origin and that meshes very nicely with the unitive concept of original sin.

Peace

 

[manualman]

Why do you think that Catholic social justice or as you call it- liberation theology - rejects original sin?

It would seem that a theology based on the value of each person implies a unity of purpose and origin and that meshes very nicely with the unitive concept of original sin.

Peace

I dispute the assertion that Liberation Theology is the same thing as authentic catholic social justice initiatives. LT is what I said it was above. LT CLAIMS to be catholic the same way that Hans Kung or Charles Curran CLAIM to be the spokemen for the “Spirit of Vatican II.” But in both cases, the claims are a fraudulent attempt to requisition moral authority that the claimant does not possess.

There is nothing wrong with a personalist theology. John Paul II was a STRONG proponent of that. The inherent diginity of each individual person is not the flaw in Liberation Theology. The flaw is the underlying assumption that unhappiness and suffering comes primarily from external oppressors rather than our OWN sinfulness. At its core, LT is a highly polished theology of scapegoating. This criticism is not meant to dispute the reality of oppression and injustice in the world. Just to dispute the priority of place given to it in the scheme of things.

And to reiterate, I have no idea if “Just Faith” is riddled with LT or not. I have no personal experience with JF. I offered my opinion on LT to help readers decide for themselves if JF is or is not an LT organization.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I dispute the assertion that Liberation Theology is the same thing as authentic catholic social justice initiatives.

I not only dispute the assertion; I know for a fact that the two are not interchangeable terms. Not even close.

The flaw is the underlying assumption that unhappiness and suffering comes primarily from external oppressors rather than our OWN sinfulness.

The flaw is in much, much more than that, actually. The flaw is in the manipulation of scripture (eisegesis) to support a created theology.

And to reiterate, I have no idea if “Just Faith” is riddled with LT or not.

Nor do I. I am only suspicious, or at least cautious (a better word) because of what I said earlier. However, if I discovered that it claimed a relationship with LT, that would be a certain reason for my not forming any association with it whatsoever.

 

[Flowerchild]

Has anyone heard of a program on Social Justice called “JustFaith”? I am speaking of the Catholic version of course.

To the original poster: I have just recently completed Just Faith. I it was a great experience for me. I have read what everyone has said and since many have not attended JF or decided to drop out, please take that into consideration if you are thinking about participating.

For those who believe that it takes someone away from Christ and the Church, I personally believe that you are wrong. For me, I feel closer to both more than ever and my love for the Eucharist is also stronger. I have walked away from this experience with a tremendous appreciation for what the CC does for the people of the US and around the world. For the most part Catholic Social Justus is done without much fanfare, and it truly amazes me how much is done.

As for the books that were in the class, they were mostly great. Some better than others, and some I did not always agree with. There were books that made me think harder than others, and some that made me reach into some very deep levels. For those of you who do not approve of the books on the list, do you always read books that only agree with what you think? Do you always hang out with people that agree with everything that you do? All I can say is there is not much growth in that. One of the things that was good about the class was that the disagreements did bring out DIALOG. Also, so that you all know, I was free to disagree with the authors. I was free to disagree with anything that was discussed in the class. All that was asked was that we were respectful to each other. My group had a great mix of the very conservative and the very liberal. It made for great discussion, and continued personal examination and reflection after the class. (I believe that is called growth.)

If those of you who are so opposed and feel that JF is leading folks down the wrong path, you should attend the classes to make sure that those folks also hear what your concerns are when they come up. Dropping out did not help prove your point to anyone.

Again to the original poster - All I can say is that for me, I walked away seeing the world much differently. I see myself differently. My faith is stronger; my love of Christ and the Church is stronger. These classes are not for everyone, and there is a discernment process that you go through. Trust that God will lead you to where you need to be.

Peace to all

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

It is up to the person involved in the class to accept or reject the tenants of “Just Faith”. I can only provide what I saw and read with what is in Catholic Theology as it is in the Catechism as well as other forms of authentic Magisterial teaching.

If the video “Jesus, Portrait of a Radical” is contrary to the authoritative Apostolic teaching, or the Walter Wink construct that the “Gospel of Thomas” is more authoritative than the canonical “Gospel of John”, or that the Church teaching that Jesus being Divine is erroneous, or that action is more important than contemplation contrary to the teaching of the Church and contrary to Jesus’ admonition to Martha that Mary had “chosen the better part”, liberation theology, etc, are actually inline with Church teaching, than I was wrong. If it isn’t inline with Church teaching, than there is a problem with “Just Faith”.

It is up to the individual to know their faith and to test if what is offered to them is authentic. This would seem to be important in this day and age of rampant dissent against the Magisterium.