Just finished the book, Why Catholics can't Sing

[Phemie]

I want to make distinction here. There is bad music and good music. There is simple music and difficult music. There is simple good music and simple bad music. There is difficult good music and difficult bad music. The combinations are unlimited.

In small communities as mine, simple music is what we use. There is great beauty in simple music done well and horrific ugliness is difficult music done poorly.

Chants are beautiful if well done but few people really realize how difficult they are. Chants can become dirges if done poorly. It is possible the reason chant is not used more often people experienced the latter.

Perfect example of badly done good music is the dirge-like renditions of hymns set to Beethoven’s “Ode to Joy”.

 

[Maol_Mhuire]

There is simple good music and simple bad music.

…]

Chants are beautiful if well done but few people really realize how difficult they are. Chants can become dirges if done poorly. It is possible the reason chant is not used more often people experienced the latter.

But there are varying levels of complexity within the repertoire of Gregorian chant. There are 9 different ways of chanting the psalms in the Divine Office. Tone VIII being the simplest.

There are also 18 different groupings in the Kyriale which the is body of chants for the Ordinary of the Mass of the Extraordinary Form, many different tones used for the Credo and the Agnus Dei. Pope Pius XII said “the following Gregorian melodies, because of their simplicity, should be learned by the faithful throughout the world: the Kyrie, eleison; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei of Mass XVI from the Roman Gradual; the Gloria in excelsis Deo, and Ite, missa est-Deo gratias of Mass XV; and either Credo I or Credo III.”

Pope Saint Pius X said that “efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times.”

 

[OraLabora]

But there are varying levels of complexity within the repertoire of Gregorian chant. There are 9 different ways of chanting the psalms in the Divine Office. Tone VIII being the simplest.

Fourteen actually:

Mode I
Mode II
Mode II* (old IVA)
Mode III
Mode IV
Mode IV*
Mode V
Mode VI
Mode VII
Mode VIII
Mode irregular (E)
Mode C (in directum, and termination c)
Mode D (similar to II*/IVA)
Tonus peregrinus.

That makes 14. If you take out the " * " modes, it’s still 12. I include them because there are significant differences between the star and non-star variants, usually the recitation tone. Of course I didn’t include recto-tono, which our abbey uses for the minor hours and Vigils. It sounds simple (always the same note) but IMHO it is maybe the toughest tone to sing properly. If one chorister is just a bit off pitch, or timing, it is much more noticeable.

Each of those modes also have multiple termination variations. VII for example has 4 (d, c1, c2 and a), mode 1 has 9 (a, a1, d1, d2, d3, f, g, g2, g3). What is constant within each mode though, is the number of accents and preparation syllables.

I do BTW agree with your previous post’s assessment of why “Catholics can’t sing”.

FWIW, I sing in a Gregorian schola and teach them psalmody, besides being a chorister.

 

[exnihilo]

Speaking as a convert that hasn’t been around that long- there are some very difficult songs to sing and awkward sounding in many Catholic parishes. I grew up in a traditional quasi-liturgical Protestant church and prefer traditional Protestant hymns more than the folk sounding Catholic songs. Though I am now getting more exposure to both Eastern Liturgy and the Latin solemn mass and the music at both are very beautiful.

As a fellow convert I agree. My Protestant church had excellent singing. They tended to have less challenging songs than I encounter at many Catholic Churches. But the congregation could sing it and in four part harmony. It was often very beautiful. A lot of Catholic songs remind me of being at summer church camp. My general impression of what I’ve encountered is a second rate attempt to be Protestant. I’d prefer traditional Catholic music and silence. In fact I prefer daily mass precisely because of this.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

Speaking as a convert that hasn’t been around that long- there are some very difficult songs to sing and awkward sounding in many Catholic parishes. I grew up in a traditional quasi-liturgical Protestant church and prefer traditional Protestant hymns more than the folk sounding Catholic songs. Though I am now getting more exposure to both Eastern Liturgy and the Latin solemn mass and the music at both are very beautiful.

Yes. So many of the more “contemporary” pieces (i.e., written in the 70s and 80s, mostly) in the Catholic hymnals are very awkward to sing, with each verse having a slightly different rhythm, or sometimes being completely different from the preceding verse.

 

[Phemie]

As a fellow convert I agree. My Protestant church had excellent singing. They tended to have less challenging songs than I encounter at many Catholic Churches. But the congregation could sing it and in four part harmony. It was often very beautiful. A lot of Catholic songs remind me of being at summer church camp. My general impression of what I’ve encountered is a second rate attempt to be Protestant. I’d prefer traditional Catholic music and silence. In fact I prefer daily mass precisely because of this.

I don’t know how things were in other parts of the world but in my area of Canada our history of congregational singing at Mass is a short one. We had never experienced a dialogue Mass as they had in other parts of the world and any singing had been done by the choir, so, when everything changed after Vat. II, it was very difficult for adults of the day to actually say the responses that were no required, let alone sing them or sing anything for that matter. Speaking in church was like breaking a taboo.

Over the years some parishes did a better job than others encouraging people to sing. Unfortunately, unlike English Canada which soon had an official hymnal, the “Catholic Book of Worship” (revised twice as CBW II and CBW III), French Canada was left to its own devices. To this day in my hometown parish and the one down the road there is no hymnal in the pew. The choir sings with no expectation that the community will join in. In fact, if you happen to recognize a hymn or response setting and join in, the community reacts as though you’ve insulted the choir.

The music published by Novalis in its French missalettes violates any number of GIRM rules, including the rule that you must sing the parts of the Mass as written.

 

[Wendy1989]

Perfect example of badly done good music is the dirge-like renditions of hymns set to Beethoven’s “Ode to Joy”.

Oh my goodness, YES!! Nothing disturbs me more than this wonderful choral sung like Eeyore! Especially when they start with Joyful, Joyful. I appreciate irony but really! This was sung at daily Mass acapella once and I about came out of my skin! I started beating the rhythm on the back of the pew to get everyone in sync. I thought the Priest was going to bust out laughing!

 

[Phemie]

Oh my goodness, YES!! Nothing disturbs me more than this wonderful choral sung like Eeyore! Especially when they start with Joyful, Joyful. I appreciate irony but really! This was sung at daily Mass acapella once and I about came out of my skin! I started beating the rhythm on the back of the pew to get everyone in sync. I thought the Priest was going to bust out laughing!

We sang this a capella as our Entrance Hymn last night. Father insists on singing at that Saturday evening Mass although there is no music and most people would be happier if he didn’t. When he asked me if we should sing that one I said “Yes, Father, but please, this is how fast it should be,” and demonstrated a bit.

Unfortunately poor Father neither reads nor has an ear for music so he just guesses at the melody – or maybe he hears it perfectly in his head but he’s unable to reproduce the sound. There were only about 40 people scattered throughout a church that seats 250 so there was no voice to overpower his. T’wasn’t pretty! Ludwig must have been spinning in his grave.

 

[Irishmom2]

Speaking as a convert that hasn’t been around that long- there are some very difficult songs to sing and awkward sounding in many Catholic parishes. I grew up in a traditional quasi-liturgical Protestant church and prefer traditional Protestant hymns more than the folk sounding Catholic songs. Though I am now getting more exposure to both Eastern Liturgy and the Latin solemn mass and the music at both are very beautiful.

As a fellow convert I agree. My Protestant church had excellent singing. They tended to have less challenging songs than I encounter at many Catholic Churches. But the congregation could sing it and in four part harmony. It was often very beautiful. A lot of Catholic songs remind me of being at summer church camp. My general impression of what I’ve encountered is a second rate attempt to be Protestant. I’d prefer traditional Catholic music and silence. In fact I prefer daily mass precisely because of this.

I am sorry you both feel that way. I have never been in a parish where the singing of the people attending mass was a problem, “or sounded like summer camp.”

But please, no one is making any “attempt to be Protestant.” I find that comment to be offensive.

 

[exnihilo]

I am sorry you both feel that way. I have never been in a parish where the singing of the people attending mass was a problem, “or sounded like summer camp.”

But please, no one is making any “attempt to be Protestant.” I find that comment to be offensive.

I guess it depends on what your summer camp experience was. I remember singing ‘They’ll Know We Are Christian’. I had no idea that was written by a Catholic priest. It seemed very similar to the other songs we sung. And those were very different from what we sang in church on Sundays.

I wouldn’t categorically deny such attempts. It doesn’t necessarily imply bad intentions. I don’t doubt there are plenty of converts who bring their Protestant experience to the Church. The mere fact of trying to work in songs into the Mass could itself be characterized as a change. Change is always towards something. At least half the song I hear at Mass are very familiar to me from my Protestant background. And many I know the origin of and they certainly weren’t written by Catholics. For many Protestants hymn singing is a big part of their worship because they don’t have the Eucharist.

 

[pianistclare]

I guess it depends on what your summer camp experience was. I remember singing ‘They’ll Know We Are Christian’. I had no idea that was written by a Catholic priest. It seemed very similar to the other songs we sung. And those were very different from what we sang in church on Sundays.

I wouldn’t categorically deny such attempts. It doesn’t necessarily imply bad intentions. I don’t doubt there are plenty of converts who bring their Protestant experience to the Church. The mere fact of trying to work in songs into the Mass could itself be characterized as a change. Change is always towards something. At least half the song I hear at Mass are very familiar to me from my Protestant background. And many I know the origin of and they certainly weren’t written by Catholics. For many Protestants hymn singing is a big part of their worship because they don’t have the Eucharist.

We sang that song about 40 years ago.
Surely parishes are not using those old hymnals like Glory and Praise still.
They were awful back then.

Gather Comprehensive is a great all around hymnal. Has all of the mandatory hymns, the ones that every good Catholic child should learn, and newer, more melodic things. And…no radio music.

 

[Phemie]

We sang that song about 40 years ago.
Surely parishes are not using those old hymnals like Glory and Praise still.
They were awful back then.

Gather Comprehensive is a great all around hymnal. Has all of the mandatory hymns, the ones that every good Catholic child should learn, and newer, more melodic things. And…no radio music.

Yes, Glory and Praise is still being used. I remember when the choir pushed to get the big volume for our parish (they still occasionally use the little paperback volumes from the 70s). It was around 2010 and I asked the Pastor “Is it wise to get that now? The Mass will be changing next year so many of the Mass settings will be obsolete.” Purchase was deferred and has not been brought up again.

But “They’ll Know We Are Christians” is in our Catholic Book of Worship II which is still in use in our parish along with the CBW III.

The CCCB is now at work to produce a new Catholic Book of Worship since CBW III dates back to 1994 and is obsolete. None of the Psalms are as they appear in our Lectionary (which changed around 2009) and the Mass settings are wrong.

 

[Bonnie]

But “They’ll Know We Are Christians” is in our Catholic Book of Worship II which is still in use in our parish along with the CBW III.

It’s in our hymnal, too, & it’s still sung from time to time. Back in the '60 we sang it at our Protestant church. I was very surprised when a Catholic friend told me they sang it, too!

 

[pianistclare]

Yes, Glory and Praise is still being used. I remember when the choir pushed to get the big volume for our parish (they still occasionally use the little paperback volumes from the 70s). It was around 2010 and I asked the Pastor “Is it wise to get that now? The Mass will be changing next year so many of the Mass settings will be obsolete.” Purchase was deferred and has not been brought up again.

But “They’ll Know We Are Christians” is in our Catholic Book of Worship II which is still in use in our parish along with the CBW III.

The CCCB is now at work to produce a new Catholic Book of Worship since CBW III dates back to 1994 and is obsolete. None of the Psalms are as they appear in our Lectionary (which changed around 2009) and the Mass settings are wrong.

If you’re looking for a really nice Mass setting:
Look into the Mass of St. Ann by Ed Bolduc.
He writes beautifully and reverently.

 

[Phemie]

If you’re looking for a really nice Mass setting:
Look into the Mass of St. Ann by Ed Bolduc.
He writes beautifully and reverently.

Our taste in music is very different because that Gloria almost made me break out in hives.

 

[pianistclare]

Our taste in music is very different because that Gloria almost made me break out in hives.

Oh my. It certainly is. He’s an excellent modern composer, and a friend. The Masses that he plays at are beautiful. I don’t think I’ve ever thought that any Mass part by anyone would “make me break out in hives”.

 

[exnihilo]

We sang that song about 40 years ago.
Surely parishes are not using those old hymnals like Glory and Praise still.
They were awful back then.

It’s still in use as are some other songs that I find very much ill suited for the Mass. Probably my least favorite is ‘Remember Your Love’ which sounds very much like ‘Pure Imagination’ from ‘Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory’. Besides sounding like a song from a silly children’s movie it is terribly repetitive, a feature I find in much music at Mass.

 

[Yeoman]

There was a part of the book where the author talked about ethnic songs being performed in American parishes such as, “When Irish Eyes are Smiling”, which have no theological place in the Liturgy. I’ve never witnessed this before, but yesterday I went to a traditionally German heritage parish and a piano player started playing, Edelweiss.
Anyway that is all. Just wanted to share. Maybe I should have been outraged but I started laughing. It was technically before the mass started or before the priest’s entrance- but still I thought it was still an odd choice for those of us sitting there before mass began.

I’ve heard When Irish Eyes Are Smiling at a Mass before, but it was the concluding song for the funeral, and appropriate in regards to the deceased.

 

[Yeoman]

As a purely random thought, I’d note that if we take a very traditional approach to things (which most parishes do not in these regards) almost the entire Mass can be sung (excluding the readings and homily, of course).

If you have a celebrant with a good voice, that’s very striking, and definitely not very Protestant.

Our fellow Eastern Catholics, and of course our brothers the Orthodox, do sing the entire celebration, I believe.

Just noting that, because if people want to sing. . . well.

Also, fwiw, while I hear a lot of complaints about singing and the Church, and I also hear people actually say they go to this or that Protestant service for the singing, even though I’m a fan of music, once the music gets good enough to take on a performance quality to it, at least for me, it detracts from the seriousness of the service.

 

[Bonnie]

I’ve heard When Irish Eyes Are Smiling at a Mass before, but it was the concluding song for the funeral, and appropriate in regards to the deceased.

At one funeral we attended, the family had a recording of the deceased’s favorite country western song played at the end. I’ve told my family I want Queen’s Another One Bites the Dust - but it should be at the reception, not in the church!