Just for fun - Did the fruit impart knowledge?

[Xavierlives]

Genesis 3:3-6
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

**So the questions are as follows:

1. Did the fruit impart any actual knowledge or was it simply the acknowledgment of the act of disobeying God that occurred?
2. Did the sepent lie?
3. Are we now “as gods?”
4. Was there sin when Eve touched the fruit?
5. Do you think the tree still exists in some form?**

I am interested in Catholic and non-Catholic opinions]

 

[littarsulum]

I’m Catholic

1. We gained the capacity for “knowledge” however this was definitely earthly knowledge. We already had knowledge of God since Adam and Eve were able to speak to Him and talk to Him. The earthly knowledge is acknowledged after the eating of the fruit when they realize they’re naked.

2 and 3) Yes, the serpent lied. We’re not gods. We are more inclined to sin now. What is sin? The deliberate contradiction of reason, truth, and our own soul. Why would a god contradict his own reasoning?

1. That’s pretty clear. Eve disobeyed when she took the fruit. Disobedience was the first sin.
2. I believe the tree was a metaphor.

 

[AJTheMan]

Genesis 3:3-6
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

**So the questions are as follows:

1. Did the fruit impart any actual knowledge or was it simply the acknowledgment of the act of disobeying God that occurred?
2. Did the sepent lie?
3. Are we now “as gods?”
4. Was there sin when Eve touched the fruit?
5. Do you think the tree still exists in some form?**

I am interested in Catholic and non-Catholic opinions]

I’m Buddhist and this is just simply my interpretation.

1. Yes, the knowledge that it imparted was that of sin. Before they ate, they only knew how to do good in the eyes of the Lord. After eating, however, they knew of sin as well.
2. Somewhat. In a literal sense, no, the serpent did not lie – they continued to live on. In a spiritual sense, however, it could be argued that they died spiritually and this would make the serpent a liar.

3… Yes. What the bible means in this case is the fact that God knew that there were to types of actions: Sin and Good. Adam and Eve knew only how to do good. Once they ate from the tree, they gained the knowledge of sin. (As is proven by the fact that they were ashamed of being nude) Since they now know of both good and sin, then in the context of this scripture, Yes, they have the knowledge that was reserved for God in the beginning.

1. There was always sin. They just simply didn’t know of it yet. Once they agreed with the serpent and ate from the tree, they knew of sin.
2. I remember hearing a Christian tell me once that Eden still exists but it is under protection from angels and that they have made it invisible…so I’ll go with that response.

• I don’t actually believe any of this, btw, this is just the way I have interpreted it.

 

[crazzeto]

Genesis 3:3-6
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

**So the questions are as follows:

1. Did the fruit impart any actual knowledge or was it simply the acknowledgment of the act of disobeying God that occurred?**

Maybe, or perhaps this is the best way the human author of Genesis could quantify what God reveled to him. Either way, there was a corperal sin of some sort, which imparted this knowlege to Adam and Eve, and we continue to inherit this sin and it’s fruites. Whether or not the corperal nature of “eating fruit” is literally accurate, as far as I’m concerned it’s true enough. So much so, that personally this is pretty much what I beleive, or at the very least how I mentally picture it. It works, why question it?

2. Did the sepent lie?

Most certainly the serpent lied

3. Are we now "as gods?"

In a sense, yes but it wasnt’ the eating of the fruit that did this. It was salvation in Christ that does this.

4. Was there sin when Eve touched the fruit?

Yes, but it was Eve’s sin strictly speaking. Humanity fell through Adam’s sin.

5. Do you think the tree still exists in some form?

Yep, we can’t get to it again though.

I am interested in Catholic and non-Catholic opinions]

 

[Xavierlives]

I’m Buddhist and this is just simply my interpretation.

1. There was always sin. They just simply didn’t know of it yet. Once they agreed with the serpent and ate from the tree, they knew of sin.

• I don’t actually believe any of this, btw, this is just the way I have interpreted it.

Now this is insightful, because most Christians don’t wrap their minds around this concept. Sin had to exist before this moment. It is made perfectly clear that God knows the difference (and the serpent as well). If not, then woman would have “created” sin.

 

[seagal]

1. There was always sin. They just simply didn’t know of it yet. Once they agreed with the serpent and ate from the tree, they knew of sin.

Now this is insightful, because most Christians don’t wrap their minds around this concept. Sin had to exist before this moment. It is made perfectly clear that God knows the difference (and the serpent as well). If not, then woman would have “created” sin.

There was always the potential for sin in paradise because Adam and Eve were created with free will but the sin didn’t exist until they disobeyed God. Adam and Eve may have been the first of mankind to sin, but they were not the first sinners. Lucifer and his minions were when then rebelled against God.

To answer your other questions:

**1. Did the fruit impart any actual knowledge or was it simply the acknowledgment of the act of disobeying God that occurred? **

Genesis 2:16-17 “Then Yahweh God gave the man this command, ‘You are free to eat of all the trees in the garden. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat’”. This implies that knowledge was imparted to them when they ate the apple.

**2. Did the sepent lie? **
Of course he lied, Satan is the father of lies. Everything he said was simply in the effort to get them to disobey God.

3. Are we now "as gods?"
See #2.

5. Do you think the tree still exists in some form?
If the garden of Eden still exists I suppose the tree is still there.

 

[AJTheMan]

There was always the potential for sin in paradise because Adam and Eve were created with free will but the sin didn’t exist until they disobeyed God. Adam and Eve may have been the first of mankind to sin, but they were not the first sinners. Lucifer and his minions were when then rebelled against God.

We weren’t talking about their sin specifically. We were saying that sin had existed from before Adam and Eve, they simply didn’t know about it until they sinned themselves.

 

[seagal]

We weren’t talking about their sin specifically. We were saying that sin had existed from before Adam and Eve, they simply didn’t know about it until they sinned themselves.

Gotcha. I guess I was a little confused when Xavierlives said that most Christians don’t get this concept. It seems obvious to me.

 

[ralphinal]

If sin is the willful disobeying of GOd’s law, the first sin was committed by the fallen angels. Therefore, sin had to exist prior to the snake (fallen angel) tempting Eve.

 

[PJM]

**[/BSo the questions are as follows:

1. Did the fruit impart any actual knowledge or was it simply the acknowledgment of the act of disobeying God that occurred?

The knowledge learned is that 1. God does not lie 2. Disobedience has consequences 3. Freewill is a gift to be used wisely.*

1. Did the sepent lie?

*He certainly intended too. Deception is lying. *

1. Are we now “as gods?”

In that our freewill’s allow us to choose the God or gods that we freely choose to serve. It can be The Triune God, or a god called "lust, power, wealth ect. Each is a real god, only one is th True God:blush:

1. Was there sin when Eve touched the fruit?

No, God said specifically "do not eat of."

1. Do you think the tree still exists in some form?

Certainly, that is why and how other gods are given birth and life, such as it is.
That’s my Catholic take.

 

[Xavierlives]

There was always the potential for sin in paradise because Adam and Eve were created with free will but the sin didn’t exist until they disobeyed God. Adam and Eve may have been the first of mankind to sin, but they were not the first sinners. Lucifer and his minions were when then rebelled against God.

Are you trying to say that Lucifer and his sin happened after Adam and Eve (in some generalized timeline)? Not likely. Simultaneously? i.e., at same moment man was rebelling against God, Lucifer was rebelling as well? Again, not likely.

But, the scriptures are a little vague on the whole thing and it doesn’t really matter when or where evil and sin first manifested itself. We know that mankinds introduction to it happened at this point in time.

To answer your other questions:

**1. Did the fruit impart any actual knowledge or was it simply the acknowledgment of the act of disobeying God that occurred? **

Genesis 2:16-17 “Then Yahweh God gave the man this command, ‘You are free to eat of all the trees in the garden. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat’”. This implies that knowledge was imparted to them when they ate the apple.

**2. Did the sepent lie? **
Of course he lied, Satan is the father of lies. Everything he said was simply in the effort to get them to disobey God.

3. Are we now "as gods?"
See #2.

5. Do you think the tree still exists in some form?
If the garden of Eden still exists I suppose the tree is still there.

Now if you will indulge me for just a moment. Let’s suppose it goes something like this, Lucifer has been tossed from God’s midst. He is now out tempting and attempting to test. While Lucifer is a deceiver, I’m hard pressed to believe he is allowed to outright lie about God. He is the master at distorting the truth, to make things appear wrong, but the truth is there.

Some examples:

The serpent said, “you will not die.”

The distortion is, Satan wanted them to believe the death God was talking about was an instantaneous “BAM! You’re dead!” But in reality we know, “for the wages of sin is death.”
The serpent told the truth, they did not experience “BAM! You’re Dead” they experienced, “their wages.”

The serpent said, “then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

The distortion is, Satan wanted them to believe that they would be gods. But in reality we know they got the knowledge of good and evil (an attribute of God). We know we are not gods, but we have that knowledge between right and wrong.

 

[seagal]

Are you trying to say that Lucifer and his sin happened after Adam and Eve (in some generalized timeline)? Not likely. Simultaneously? i.e., at same moment man was rebelling against God, Lucifer was rebelling as well? Again, not likely.

You mis-read what I said. I said specifically that Adam and Eve were not the first sinners, Lucifer and his followers were.

 

[seagal]

While Lucifer is a deceiver, I’m hard pressed to believe he is allowed to outright lie about God. He is the master at distorting the truth, to make things appear wrong, but the truth is there.

I agree with you that Lucifer is a master of deception by why do you say that he would not be allowed to lie outright about God? What’s stopping him?

John 8:44

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[seagal]

3. Are we now "as gods?"

In that our freewill’s allow us to choose the God or gods that we freely choose to serve. It can be The Triune God, or a god called "lust, power, wealth ect. Each is a real god, only one is th True God:blush:

Following and serving God (or gods, as you put it) doesn’t make us “as gods”, it makes us servants or slaves. The serpent lied.

 

[seagal]

(Sorry for all the posts, I keep thinking I’m done )

I agree with you that Lucifer is a master of deception by why do you say that he would not be allowed to lie outright about God? What’s stopping him?

To add to that thought, Lucifer lies about God all the time through people like Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and others like them.

 

[Xavierlives]

I agree with you that Lucifer is a master of deception by why do you say that he would not be allowed to lie outright about God? What’s stopping him?

John 8:44

Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying is isn’t a liar. He lies is so many forms. He convinces people drugs are okay, he convinces people affairs are okay, he convinces people … [insert immoral act here].

What I am saying is he has limits. God imposed limits. We know this to be true from Job. I think we get an example of this limitation in the scripture I quoted.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Genesis 3:3-6
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

**So the questions are as follows:

1. Did the fruit impart any actual knowledge or was it simply the acknowledgment of the act of disobeying God that occurred?
2. Did the sepent lie?
3. Are we now “as gods?”
4. Was there sin when Eve touched the fruit?
5. Do you think the tree still exists in some form?**

I am interested in Catholic and non-Catholic opinions]

I suppose a parable is called for here. When I was a kid, living a generally sheltered life (apart from a cruel and vindictive father), I remember the first time I became aware of the Holocaust. Normally I went to bed at a certain time by parental fiat, but this time I was allowed to watch a show on the Holocaust. Now I knew absolutely nothing about it. My father, despite his cruelty, sometimes gave good advice. On this occasion he said, “Normally I wouldn’t let you watch this, but you’ll find out sooner or later. You’ll probably have nightmares later though.”

Sure enough, I had nightmares after I watched the show. It was my first introduction to the potential depravity of the human race, and a watershed in my understanding of good and evil, particularly evil.

Before that I’d been, in a sense, innocent. After it, I “knew” that there was something called evil. And the knowledge hinged on a single event.

I could name another personal episode as a similar turning point, but in the interests of personal embarassment, I’ll discontinue with that line of thought.

So in some sense their eyes were “opened”. I find it curious that their first reaction is to realise they’re naked. In one sense, so what? They’d been naked all along by the sound of it, yet as soon as they crossed the threshold of good and evil, immediate tension between male and female was the very first consequence. One doesn’t need to read much of the daily media to realise that this continues to the present day, and is a real problem.

So it wasn’t the fruit, but the decision.

But now they had the knowledge of good and evil, they were in the same position as the spiritual beings, or “gods”, who also knew good and evil, except that the spiritual beings are good or evil incarnate. They’re either innocent angels or depraved demons, whereas we struggle between good and evil within ourselves, no matter how good we are. We inhabit a middle world, and we move towards one end or the other with every moral decision.

The serpent told the truth about becoming like “gods”, but he lied about the consequences. He always tells half a truth. “Mmm, doesn’t that illicit sex look like fun?” It is, but he hides the consequences. “Mmm, they reckon the trip from that drug is awesome.” Maybe it is, but he hides the consequences. He’d hardly have any followers if he told the full truth. If he showed what happens to his servants in the end, they’d run away from him.

Finally, I’d say God got out the chainsaw the next day. The fruit wouldn’t exist. He’d have made sure of that. If Christ could curse a fig tree whose only offence was that it was sterile, so that it withered to the roots overnight, infinitely faster than any man made herbicide could act, He wouldn’t have much trouble removing a fruit tree which was a threat.

It would have served its purpose.

Finally, Man was always meant to fall. It was part of God’s plan. As Paul said, God could only have mercy on all men, if they were first bound over to disobedience. He had no intention of leaving a naive couple sitting around naked just eating fruit in a garden for eternity.

So in that respect, all the trouble the human race has gone through was part of His plan.

Yet the decision to disobey was human, and we continue to make decisions, for good or evil. And we are still tempted.

 

[ParkerD]

I suppose a parable is called for here. When I was a kid, living a generally sheltered life (apart from a cruel and vindictive father), I remember the first time I became aware of the Holocaust. Normally I went to bed at a certain time by parental fiat, but this time I was allowed to watch a show on the Holocaust. Now I knew absolutely nothing about it. My father, despite his cruelty, sometimes gave good advice. On this occasion he said, “Normally I wouldn’t let you watch this, but you’ll find out sooner or later. You’ll probably have nightmares later though.”

Sure enough, I had nightmares after I watched the show. It was my first introduction to the potential depravity of the human race, and a watershed in my understanding of good and evil, particularly evil.

Before that I’d been, in a sense, innocent. After it, I “knew” that there was something called evil. And the knowledge hinged on a single event.

I could name another personal episode as a similar turning point, but in the interests of personal embarassment, I’ll discontinue with that line of thought.

So in some sense their eyes were “opened”. I find it curious that their first reaction is to realise they’re naked. In one sense, so what? They’d been naked all along by the sound of it, yet as soon as they crossed the threshold of good and evil, immediate tension between male and female was the very first consequence. One doesn’t need to read much of the daily media to realise that this continues to the present day, and is a real problem.

So it wasn’t the fruit, but the decision.

But now they had the knowledge of good and evil, they were in the same position as the spiritual beings, or “gods”, who also knew good and evil, except that the spiritual beings are good or evil incarnate. They’re either innocent angels or depraved demons, whereas we struggle between good and evil within ourselves, no matter how good we are. We inhabit a middle world, and we move towards one end or the other with every moral decision.

The serpent told the truth about becoming like “gods”, but he lied about the consequences. He always tells half a truth. “Mmm, doesn’t that illicit sex look like fun?” It is, but he hides the consequences. “Mmm, they reckon the trip from that drug is awesome.” Maybe it is, but he hides the consequences. He’d hardly have any followers if he told the full truth. If he showed what happens to his servants in the end, they’d run away from him.

Finally, I’d say God got out the chainsaw the next day. The fruit wouldn’t exist. He’d have made sure of that. If Christ could curse a fig tree whose only offence was that it was sterile, so that it withered to the roots overnight, infinitely faster than any man made herbicide could act, He wouldn’t have much trouble removing a fruit tree which was a threat.

It would have served its purpose.

Finally, Man was always meant to fall. It was part of God’s plan. As Paul said, God could only have mercy on all men, if they were first bound over to disobedience. He had no intention of leaving a naive couple sitting around naked just eating fruit in a garden for eternity.

So in that respect, all the trouble the human race has gone through was part of His plan.

Yet the decision to disobey was human, and we continue to make decisions, for good or evil. And we are still tempted.

Bob Crowley,
I appreciate having read your comment here. I think you have offered keen insights. (Sorry to have heard about your childhood with your father being vindictive, but it sounds like you have overcome that.) What a “tough” parable to be exposed to, and how grateful we can be that the Savior overcomes the “potential depravity of the human race” through His example, compassionate love, and His atoning grace through suffering such horrible pain and anguish for our sins. Thank you again for your insights here.

 

[Eutychus123]

Genesis 3:3-6
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

**So the questions are as follows:

1. Did the fruit impart any actual knowledge or was it simply the acknowledgment of the act of disobeying God that occurred?
2. Did the sepent lie?
3. Are we now “as gods?”
4. Was there sin when Eve touched the fruit?
5. Do you think the tree still exists in some form?**

I am interested in Catholic and non-Catholic opinions]

1. Knowlege - Yes, of good and evil.
2. The serpent told half truths, or half lies if you will. A half-lie is a lie.
3. Genesis 1:26 - “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”
   In that regard, we were already “as gods” The serpent was twisting what God had said.
4. Yes.
5. Don’t know.

 

[Eutychus123]

Maybe, or perhaps this is the best way the human author of Genesis could quantify what God reveled to him. Either way, there was a corperal sin of some sort, which imparted this knowlege to Adam and Eve, and we continue to inherit this sin and it’s fruites. Whether or not the corperal nature of “eating fruit” is literally accurate, as far as I’m concerned it’s true enough. So much so, that personally this is pretty much what I beleive, or at the very least how I mentally picture it. It works, why question it?

Most certainly the serpent lied

In a sense, yes but it wasnt’ the eating of the fruit that did this. It was salvation in Christ that does this.

Yes, but it was Eve’s sin strictly speaking. Humanity fell through Adam’s sin.

Yep, we can’t get to it again though.

Thank you for your response. It raised a question for me. Even though Eve sinned first, we refer to “Adam’s Fall.” Any thoughts on that?