Just for fun - Did the fruit impart knowledge?

[crazzeto]

Thank you for your response. It raised a question for me. Even though Eve sinned first, we refer to “Adam’s Fall.” Any thoughts on that?

Eve was created for Adam, so ultimatly Adam was in charge. He was the maanger so to speak, so it was his sin not to stop Eve, and his sin eating of the fruit. God recognized Eve’s culpibility in the sin, this is why she also was directly punished (labor pains multiplied, a clearly defined subserviant relationship to Adam, etc). But in the end, if Adam had not sinned, Man would not have fallen. It was Adam, after all, who was directly created by God in his own image.

 

[PJM]

=Xavierlives;5998178]Are you trying to say that Lucifer and his sin happened after Adam and Eve (in some generalized timeline)? Not likely. Simultaneously? i.e., at same moment man was rebelling against God, Lucifer was rebelling as well? Again, not likely.

No, Ol’ Satan was the first, but clearly not the last

But, the scriptures are a little vague on the whole thing and it doesn’t really matter when or where evil and sin first manifested itself. We know that mankinds introduction to it happened at this point in time.

Now if you will indulge me for just a moment. Let’s suppose it goes something like this, Lucifer has been tossed from God’s midst. He is now out tempting and attempting to test. While Lucifer is a deceiver, I’m hard pressed to believe he is allowed to outright lie about God. He is the master at distorting the truth, to make things appear wrong, but the truth is there.

***And why not:shrug: I can’t imagine one so filled with hate stoping at lying? ***

Some examples:

The serpent said, “you will not die.”

The distortion is, Satan wanted them to believe the death God was talking about was an instantaneous “BAM! You’re dead!” But in reality we know, “for the wages of sin is death.”
The serpent told the truth, they did not experience “BAM! You’re Dead” they experienced, “their wages.”

Ahh! Nevertheless sin, Mortyal sin, is “death” so “death-spiritual” did take place. Satan lied God told the truth. God said nothing about understanding His warning.

The serpent said, “then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

“like gods” plural is not Like God the Trinity…Singular. Indeed they did discover through there free choice the existence of right and wrong / good and evil.

The distortion is, Satan wanted them to believe that they would be gods. But in reality we know they got the knowledge of good and evil (an attribute of God). We know we are not

gods, but we have that knowledge between right and wrong.

The “distoration” is a lie. There was no preexistant condition that required the knowledge of good and evil, prior to there freewill decision to sin. Further, I’m not positive that at least the potential for thinking we are “god’s” is not part and partial in the package of Mortal sin?

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[seagal]

1. Genesis 1:26 - “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”
   In that regard, we were already “as gods” The serpent was twisting what God had said.

Very good point, I hadn’t thought of it in those terms.

 

[seagal]

Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying is isn’t a liar. He lies is so many forms. He convinces people drugs are okay, he convinces people affairs are okay, he convinces people … [insert immoral act here].

What I am saying is he has limits. God imposed limits. We know this to be true from Job. I think we get an example of this limitation in the scripture I quoted.

1. The Book of Job was never meant to be a factual account, it is a work of fiction that attempts to reconcile the existence of evil with the existence of God. It is the original “why bad things happen to good people” book.
2. The only limit God imposed on Satan was not to touch Job physically. We know that Satan’s power isn’t unleashed at us physically. His power lies in seducing us to sin of our own free will.
3. This can and does include lying directly about God. As I said in another post, the proof comes out of the mouths of people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens who deny God’s existence.

 

[crazzeto]

I’m not so sure I would dismiss Job simply as “a work of fiction”.

 

[seagal]

I’m not so sure I would dismiss Job simply as “a work of fiction”.

I didn’t intend to sound dismissive, it’s certainly a valuable source of wisdom for us. But it isn’t meant to be an account of an actual person named Job. My Bible (New Jerusalem) calls it a “masterpiece of poetry”, it’s thought to have been written by Moses. As opposed to Genesis, which if not absolutely factual (depending on who you talk to ) at least represents actual events.

 

[crazzeto]

I didn’t intend to sound dismissive, it’s certainly a valuable source of wisdom for us. But it isn’t meant to be an account of an actual person named Job. My Bible (New Jerusalem) calls it a “masterpiece of poetry”, it’s thought to have been written by Moses. As opposed to Genesis, which if not absolutely factual (depending on who you talk to ) at least represents actual events.

Just always bare in mind, there is always a literal sense to Scripture. It can’t be thrown out in favor of the spiritual sense, in facth the spirtual sense is built upon the literal sense.

I don’t mean to suggest one should read the bible as a literalist. But at the same time, people are starting to get a just a little too happy throwing out this book, that book and that story as “works of fiction, nobody beleives that… it’s all about the spiritual sense”. You really can’t just do this.

And not to belittle the New Jerusalem bible, but I wouldn’t accept their footnotes as scripture. Basically, just suggesting that you keep your self fully open to all senses of scripture.

 

[seagal]

Not to derail this thread, I was making a distinction in order to make a point. I wouldn’t throw out any part of the Bible.

 

[Xavierlives]

1. The Book of Job was never meant to be a factual account, it is a work of fiction that attempts to reconcile the existence of evil with the existence of God. It is the original “why bad things happen to good people” book.
2. The only limit God imposed on Satan was not to touch Job physically. We know that Satan’s power isn’t unleashed at us physically. His power lies in seducing us to sin of our own free will.
3. This can and does include lying directly about God. As I said in another post, the proof comes out of the mouths of people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens who deny God’s existence.

Hmm… maybe I should try it this way. The Bible is a book of truth. While telling this truth, Satan will be permitted to cast God into a darkness of lies.

 

[seagal]

Hmm… maybe I should try it this way. The Bible is a book of truth. While telling this truth, Satan will be permitted to cast God into a darkness of lies.

Sounds like hair-splitting to me, but sure.

 

[PJM]

I could name another personal episode as a similar turning point, but in the interests of personal embarassment, I’ll discontinue with that line of thought.

The serpent told the truth about becoming like “gods”, but he lied about the consequences. He always tells half a truth. “Mmm, doesn’t that illicit sex look like fun?” It is, but he hides the consequences. “Mmm, they reckon the trip from that drug is awesome.” Maybe it is, but he hides the consequences. He’d hardly have any followers if he told the full truth. If he showed what happens to his servants in the end, they’d run away from him.

Finally, I’d say God got out the chainsaw the next day. The fruit wouldn’t exist. He’d have made sure of that. If Christ could curse a fig tree whose only offence was that it was sterile, so that it withered to the roots overnight, infinitely faster than any man made herbicide could act, He wouldn’t have much trouble removing a fruit tree which was a threat.

It would have served its purpose.

Finally, Man was always meant to fall. It was part of God’s plan. As Paul said, God could only have mercy on all men, if they were first bound over to disobedience. He had no intention of leaving a naive couple sitting around naked just eating fruit in a garden for eternity.

So in that respect, all the trouble the human race has gone through was part of His plan.

Yet the decision to disobey was human, and we continue to make decisions, for good or evil. And we are still tempted.

*Dear Brother Bob,

While you’re ententions are noble and good, you’re understanding of the very Nature of God seems a bit skewed from your previous life experiences. So please take this as an attempt to enlighten, not to correct or embarase you

**God can be describes as “all good things perfected.” **

Because God can be and only is “GOOD” He can therefore ONLY do “good things.”

So God is “all Wise, All Knowing and all Just.” [To list but a few of God’s attributes."]

Great care must be taken not to omit the absolutely necessary JUSTICE and Fairness of God.

Simply because God “foreknew” what would happen IN NO WAY effects the necessary [in an absolute sense] use and application of Adams and Eve’s FREEWILL.

Any other conclusion [such as you put forth] denies the very reason that ONLY angels and humanity are BLESSED with the Divine like [Genesis 1:26-30] gifts of mind, intellect and freewill, which is how we are Created in the Divine image of God. God Perfectly, we imperfectly.

Even God, who is PEFRECT in Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge and Goodness,[by God’s unchaning and unchangable NATURE] cannot alter or overide that which God Created and having all ready Predestined for humanity to be able to freely decide good or evil on there own.

THUS it is a SPUERNATURAL IMPOSSSIBILITY that God could or would NOT ALLOW Adam and Eve to make a COMPLETELY FREE CHOICE to sin or NOT to sin:thumbsup:

Indeed God desired [even though He knew it would not happen] GOD DESIRED and wanted His Created man NOT to choose to sin! That remains God’s preference today and at all time.

To assume otherwise is to “buy into predestination” which too denines the necessary goodness and justice of a God who can “ONLY be all-good-perfectly.”*

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Xavierlives]

*Dear Brother Bob,

While you’re ententions are noble and good, you’re understanding of the very Nature of God seems a bit skewed from your previous life experiences. So please take this as an attempt to enlighten, not to correct or embarase you

**God can be describes as “all good things perfected.” ***

Because God can be and only is “GOOD” He can therefore ONLY do “good things.”

So God is “all Wise, All Knowing and all Just.” [To list but a few of God’s attributes."]

Great care must be taken not to omit the absolutely necessary JUSTICE and Fairness of God.

Simply because God “foreknew” what would happen IN NO WAY effects the necessary [in an absolute sense] use and application of Adams and Eve’s FREEWILL.

Any other conclusion [such as you put forth] denies the very reason that ONLY angels and humanity are BLESSED with the Divine like [Genesis 1:26-30] gifts of mind, intellect and freewill, which is how we are Created in the Divine image of God. God Perfectly, we imperfectly.

Even God, who is PEFRECT in Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge and Goodness,[by God’s unchaning and unchangable NATURE] cannot alter or overide that which God Created and having all ready Predestined for humanity to be able to freely decide good or evil on there own.

THUS it is a SPUERNATURAL IMPOSSSIBILITY that God could or would NOT ALLOW Adam and Eve to make a COMPLETELY FREE CHOICE to sin or NOT to sin:thumbsup:

Indeed God desired [even though He knew it would not happen] GOD DESIRED and wanted His Created man NOT to choose to sin! That remains God’s preference today and at all time.

To assume otherwise is to “buy into predestination” which too denines the necessary goodness and justice of a God who can “ONLY be all-good-perfectly.”

Love and prayers,

Pat

Maybe we are parsing words, but I think God has choices (and free will). If we, in our limited capacity, view his righteous choices as one-sided or no choice, then we are trying to limit God. Also, Satan said, “be as gods” with the knowledge of good and evil. I’m pretty sure God knows the difference,so this “half-truth” is a truth, only it deceived.

 

[PJM]

=Xavierlives;6022688]Maybe we are parsing words, but I think God has choices (and free will). If we, in our limited capacity, view his righteous choices as one-sided or no choice, then we are trying to limit God. Also, Satan said, “be as gods” with the knowledge of good and evil. I’m pretty sure God knows the difference,so this “half-truth” is a truth, only it deceived.

***Interesting thought

There is no arrempt to Limit God’s choices beyond the FACT that God’s choices in an absolute sense MUST BE GOOD.

God by Nature cannot do evil.***

Heb.4: 15 "For we have not a high priest [JESUS] who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin

Love and prayers,

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives;5998178:

Are you trying to say that Lucifer and his sin happened after Adam and Eve (in some generalized timeline)? Not likely. Simultaneously? i.e., at same moment man was rebelling against God, Lucifer was rebelling as well? Again, not likely.

No, Ol’ Satan was the first, but clearly not the last

***And why not:shrug: I can’t imagine one so filled with hate stoping at lying? ***

Ahh! Nevertheless sin, Mortyal sin, is “death” so “death-spiritual” did take place. Satan lied God told the truth. God said nothing about understanding His warning.

“like gods” plural is not Like God the Trinity…Singular. Indeed they did discover through there free choice the existence of right and wrong / good and evil.

The “distoration” is a lie. There was no preexistant condition that required the knowledge of good and evil, prior to there freewill decision to sin. Further, I’m not positive that at least the potential for thinking we are “god’s” is not part and partial in the package of Mortal sin?

Love and prayers,

Pat

I am not being an advocate for Satan by any means. I am trying to show that God places restrictions on him and I believe one of the fine dances that Satan does, in relation to God, is the use of these half-truths to deceive. If he had free reign to do as he pleased, then he would have said, things like, “eat that fruit and you will live forever” or "eat that fruit and you will be gods.’ Satan only has the authority and power granted by God. I am not privy to God’s dealings with Satan outside the scope of the Bible but there are plenty of examples there to draw from.

Personally, I don’t think the fruit was anything more than fruit. It was there and had restrictions placed on it to establish authority. The epiphany occurred when they did do wrong and realized there are consequences for it. God then exacted some punishment for testing his authority.

 

[Xavierlives]

***Interesting thought

There is no arrempt to Limit God’s choices beyond the FACT that God’s choices in an absolute sense MUST BE GOOD.

God by Nature cannot do evil.***

Heb.4: 15 "For we have not a high priest [JESUS] who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin

Love and prayers,

I think we are saying the same thing. If Jesus would not have been tested and found to be pure, he would not have the right to sit in judgment.

 

[PJM]

Xavierlives;6022795]I am not being an advocate for Satan by any means. I am trying to show that God places restrictions on him and I believe one of the fine dances that Satan does, in relation to God, is the use of these half-truths to deceive. If he had free reign to do as he pleased, then he would have said, things like, “eat that fruit and you will live forever” or "eat that fruit and you will be gods.’ Satan only has the authority and power granted by God. I am not privy to God’s dealings with Satan outside the scope of the Bible but there are plenty of examples there to draw from.

Personally, I don’t think the fruit was anything more than fruit. It was there and had restrictions placed on it to establish authority. The epiphany occurred when they did do wrong and realized there are consequences for it. God then exacted some punishment for testing his authority.

*** I am in complete agreement with you’re astute observations. We find evidence of this TRUTH in the book of JOB, and again in the NT in Luke 22:31:thumbsup:***

God bless you

 

[seagal]

I am not being an advocate for Satan by any means. I am trying to show that God places restrictions on him and I believe one of the fine dances that Satan does, in relation to God, is the use of these half-truths to deceive. If he had free reign to do as he pleased, then he would have said, things like, “eat that fruit and you will live forever” or "eat that fruit and you will be gods.’ Satan only has the authority and power granted by God. I am not privy to God’s dealings with Satan outside the scope of the Bible but there are plenty of examples there to draw from.

It would have been pointless for Satan to have promised that they would live forever because they were in paradise and death didn’t exist. Death only came into the world because they ate the fruit. I agree that Satan has limits to what he can do (he can’t physically touch us for example) but I’m still not convinced to agree with you that Satan has restrictions on his ability to manipulate us, i.e. telling direct lies about God.

 

[Xavierlives]

*** I am in complete agreement with you’re astute observations. We find evidence of this TRUTH in the book of JOB, and again in the NT in Luke 22:31:thumbsup:***

God bless you

Well, it was only observing the Bible. (one of my failings is I don’t always notate the scripture).

 

[Xavierlives]

It would have been pointless for Satan to have promised that they would live forever because they were in paradise and death didn’t exist. Death only came into the world because they ate the fruit. I agree that Satan has limits to what he can do (he can’t physically touch us for example) but I’m still not convinced to agree with you that Satan has restrictions on his ability to manipulate us, i.e. telling direct lies about God.

I just don’t think I have articulated this very well. I’ll give it another attempt (with a different metaphor). Satan is described as a liar, deceiver, manipulator (take your pick). I am not disputing that. I am saying he has limitations. I believe the limitations are God placed, but they might be in place because of God’s nature (i.e. it is hard for the darkness to lie about the light, when it is there, shining away). I do not think Satan can outright lie about God because the light will never be overcome by the darkness. I think the easiest tool Satan can use in his toolbox is a mirror. You can hide in the darkness by standing behind a mirror, but mirrors distort. Mirrors misdirect. Mirrors are impertfect. The problem is people head for those distortions believing they are pure when in fact they are really moving toward the darkness.

(How’s that one?)

 

[seagal]

I just don’t think I have articulated this very well. I’ll give it another attempt (with a different metaphor). Satan is described as a liar, deceiver, manipulator (take your pick). I am not disputing that. I am saying he has limitations. I believe the limitations are God placed, but they might be in place because of God’s nature (i.e. it is hard for the darkness to lie about the light, when it is there, shining away). I do not think Satan can outright lie about God because the light will never be overcome by the darkness. I think the easiest tool Satan can use in his toolbox is a mirror. You can hide in the darkness by standing behind a mirror, but mirrors distort. Mirrors misdirect. Mirrors are impertfect. The problem is people head for those distortions believing they are pure when in fact they are really moving toward the darkness.

(How’s that one?)

Well, we’re still at odds. You haven’t said anything that helps me understand why you believe that statement (in red). Satan has lied about God’s very existance, in fact he has done a very good job of convincing some people of the truth in that lie. He gets others to believe that yes, God exists but he’s an angry, judgemental god who’s just waiting for you to put a toe out of line and then he’ll gleefully send you to hell. So what do you base your assertion on?