Just found article on Dr. Frances Beckwith's conversion from Protestant to Catholic

[lovemyboys]

americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar2010/Feature2.asp

 

[Mimi]

I sure would like all my protestant friends to read this (and other conversion stories) and have a conversation about that kind of thing.

I hope & pray that many will read it, ponder, pray, and decide they, too, need to think about “swimming the Tiber”.

I also like the questions posed for “bible-only” Chirstians on Steve Ray’s web site. Many are thought-provoking. Just checked his web site; can’t find the list! I saved it to my files, though. Maybe I got it from John Martinoni’s site… oh well.

I heard Steve Ray on EWTN radio earlier this week. In response to a bible-only Christian asking you (presumably a Catholic) “Where is it in the bible that you should pray to Mary (or whatever)?”

He said you should respond, "Where does it say in the bible that it HAS to be in the bible?

I thought that was a good answer & one I will try to remember.

Happy 2nd Sunday of Lent,
Mimi

 

[lilred5]

I love reading conversion stories and I think there is a nice little comment in this article about the whole “grace vs works” thing. It helped me understand it better.

Catholic theology “just says that the grace that you receive as a consequence of Baptism removes your Original Sin, and you have access to those graces throughout your life. The difference is this: The Protestant view is that grace is extrinsic. That is, justification is something that is not an internal change within you, but something that God imputes to you, whereas the Catholic view is that it’s infused. It’s something that actually changes inside you.”

When Beckwith examined the 1999 Joint Declaration on Justification, he found, "Both the Lutherans and the Catholics agreed about the importance of works in justification. For the Catholic, works or engaging in works of charity is the way in which God’s grace works through us. Although we get merit for it, it isn’t our work that is doing it. It’s wholly the grace of God.

"On the other hand, the Lutherans—and many other Protestants—will say that good works are a consequence of justification. [They say] you don’t work in order for God’s grace to internally change you. You do good works because that’s a natural consequence of having already been justified.

I think that is a huge misunderstanding of many Protestants (and some Catholics) about the Catholic faith.

 

[Moscati]

I’ve met Dr. Beckwith in person. He was wonderful to talk to. He even sent my dad (raised Catholic, left the church when he got “born-again”) a copy of his book Return to Rome when I told him about my journey into the Church.

 

[aspirant]

Dr. Beckwith’s Return to Rome book is excellent. I highly recommend it to everyone.

 

[lovemyboys]

Mimi, I love that quote about the Bible. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Berean2]

He said you should respond, "Where does it say in the bible that it HAS to be in the bible?

“To the teaching and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Is.8:20)

“Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” (Acts 17:11) Notice: they did not fall down @ the feet of Paul, “Hail Paul, infallible premier apostle of God!” They didn’t kiss his ring either (if he even had one, which is dubious, seeing that he writes in 1 Cor. 4, “To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are ill-clad and buffeted and homeless, and we labor, working with our own hands.”) [emphases mine]

In 1 Thess. 5:21, Paul exhorts believers to “test all things; hold fast that which is good.” Test by what criterion? By the Berean one. In that same vein, in Galatians 1, he goes so far as to write, “But even if we [meaning clerics], or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.” Now, the only way you would be able to tell a counterfeit gospel (or teaching) is if you’re rooted in the Scriptures the way the Bereans were.

In John’s 1st letter, chapter 2:26, we read, “I write this to you about those who would deceive you; but the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie…”

Jesus always referred to the Scriptures when He was refuting the errors of the Pharisees (the ones who thought their Talmud alone held the true interpretation of God’s Word)

“I have more understanding than all my teachers,
for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the aged,
for I keep thy precepts.” “Thy testimonies are my delight,
they are my counselors.” “I will meditate on thy precepts,
and fix my eyes on thy ways.” (Ps. 119 passim)

 

[Charmian]

“To the teaching and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Is.8:20)

“Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” (Acts 17:11) Notice: they did not fall down @ the feet of Paul, “Hail Paul, infallible premier apostle of God!” They didn’t kiss his ring either (if he even had one, which is dubious, seeing that he writes in 1 Cor. 4, “To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are ill-clad and buffeted and homeless, and we labor, working with our own hands.”) [emphases mine]

In 1 Thess. 5:21, Paul exhorts believers to “test all things; hold fast that which is good.” Test by what criterion? By the Berean one. In that same vein, in Galatians 1, he goes so far as to write, “But even if we [meaning clerics], or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.” Now, the only way you would be able to tell a counterfeit gospel (or teaching) is if you’re rooted in the Scriptures the way the Bereans were.

In John’s 1st letter, chapter 2:26, we read, “I write this to you about those who would deceive you; but the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie…”

Jesus always referred to the Scriptures when He was refuting the errors of the Pharisees (the ones who thought their Talmud alone held the true interpretation of God’s Word)

“I have more understanding than all my teachers,
for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the aged,
for I keep thy precepts.” “Thy testimonies are my delight,
they are my counselors.” “I will meditate on thy precepts,
and fix my eyes on thy ways.” (Ps. 119 passim)

I’m always amused at this type of reply - so tell me - when Jesus left did he haul out a book and tell everyone to read it - or did he tell them to tell people about him? You are using a book (all be it a God inspired one), **assembled **by Catholics in about 394 AD to try to disprove Catholisism - and don’t mention the removal of books by Calvin - that’s a no-no! Oh dear… Faith in God is not blind belief in books - it is in how you live every part of your life.

 

[Berean2]

I’m always amused at this type of reply - so tell me - when Jesus left did he haul out a book and tell everyone to read it - or did he tell them to tell people about him? You are using a book (all be it a God inspired one), **assembled **by Catholics in about 394 AD to try to disprove Catholicism - and don’t mention the removal of books by Calvin - that’s a no-no! Oh dear… Faith in God is not blind belief in books - it is in how you live every part of your life.

(Edited) I’m no fan of the Reformed Pope Calvin (are you confusing me with plain old “Berean”, perhaps? I’m not that person’s reincarnation; I only know of his/her existence bec. I could not choose that username when I registered a few minutes ago), so don’t worry about my quoting him (and as far as I know, it was LUTHER who advocated rooting out James’ epistle—or perhaps you’re referring to the fact that the Protestant Bible lacks the apocrypha, which weren’t considered canonical by the Jews of O.T. times, either). If you go back to my reply, you’ll notice I was merely, addressing Mimi’s comment, pure & simple. But you bring up interesting other points, so I’ll digress along with you…

(1) Naturally Jesus wouldn’t have counseled anyone to “haul out a book,” bec. He was pre-Gutenberg; “books” were actually clunky scrolls, expensive and not easily totable. Furthermore, most of the people in those days were illiterate—it was a heavily oral society (which also explains why there was such an emphasis on “assembling together to hear the Word preached”). But it is a fact that He consistently appealed to Scripture when He was refuting the Pharisees’ errors—and of course, as a boy, He spent many hours studying the Holy Writ.

(2) You’re absolutely right: biblical faith is not “blind belief” at all, whether in man-made books, (Edited) (Even the writer of Ecclesiastes—end of chptr. 12—says, " …like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings which are given by one Shepherd. My son, beware of anything beyond these.") The greatest commandment exhorts us to “love the LORD your God with all your mind,” (Edited)

(3) “It is how you live every part of your life.” Yes, agreed, but the faith has to be anchored in Truth. The devout Muslim or Hindu lives every part of his life according to the precepts of his “faith,”(Edited). Which brings us back to Paul’s “Test all things.”

 

[kepha1]

• “To the teaching and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Is.8:20)

This does not answer the question, "Where does it say in the bible that it HAS to be in the bible?. And it has nothing to do with the testimony of Francis Beckwith, and I assure you it is no threat to you if you would only read the link in the OP. (opening post). Furthermore, “this word” in Isa. 8:20 is about an instructional document “belonging to Maher-shalal-hash-baz.” in verse 1 of the same chapter, NOT about a bible that did not yet exist. Furthermore, it says, “this word”, it does not say “God’s word”.

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day

to see if what Paul said was true." (Acts 17:11) Notice: they did not fall down @ the feet of Paul, “Hail Paul, infallible premier apostle of God!” They didn’t kiss his ring either (if he even had one, which is dubious, seeing that he writes in 1 Cor. 4, “To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are ill-clad and buffeted and homeless, and we labor, working with our own hands.”) [emphases mine]

This does not answer the question, "Where does it say in the bible that it HAS to be in the bible?. And it has nothing to do with the testimony of Francis Beckwith, and I assure you it is no threat to you if you would only read the link in the OP. (opening post).

Acts 17:11-12 - here we see the verse “they searched the Scriptures.” This refers to the Bereans who used the Old Testament to confirm the oral teachings about the Messiah. The verses do not say the Bereans searched the Scriptures alone (which is what Protestants are attempting to prove when quoting this passage). Moreover, the Bereans accepted the oral teaching from Paul as God’s word before searching the Scriptures, which disproves the Berean’s use of sola Scriptura.

Acts 17:11-12 - Also, the Bereans, being more “noble” or “fair minded,” meant that they were more reasonable and less violent than the Thessalonians in Acts. 17:5-9. Their greater fairmindedness was not because of their use of Scripture, which Paul directed his listeners to do as was his custom (Acts 17:3).

In 1 Thess. 5:21, Paul exhorts believers to “test all things; hold fast that which is good.” Test by what criterion? By the Berean one.

“the Berean one” accepted oral teaching first and then searched the Old Testament scriptures. The criteria to “test all things” against was Apostolic teaching that predated the first enscripturated New Testament word. Since the New Testament did not exist at the time St. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, he could not have been refering to it. The Bible came from the Church, a church did not come from a book.

In that same vein, in Galatians 1, he goes so far as to write, “But even if we [meaning clerics], or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.” Now, the only way you would be able to tell a counterfeit gospel (or teaching) is if you’re rooted in the Scriptures the way the Bereans were.

What does this have to do with Franscis Beckwith, or the ‘wonders’ of sola scriptura? And why does Galations say preaching and not reading?

• In John’s 1st letter, chapter 2:26, we read, “I write this to you about those who would deceive you; but the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie…”

In John’s 1st letter, chapter 2:26 does not pit the Church against the Holy Spirit. No Apostle ever taught that. He was writing against the Gnostics who sought to “teach” with “hidden knowledge” John was not supporting the heresy of Individualism (which has severely undermined Christian unity for the pst 400 years).

Jesus always referred to the Scriptures when He was refuting the errors of the Pharisees (the ones who thought their Talmud alone held the true interpretation of God’s Word)

• "I have more understanding than all my teachers,

 

[kepha1]

for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the aged,
for I keep thy precepts." “Thy testimonies are my delight,
they are my counselors.” “I will meditate on thy precepts,
and fix my eyes on thy ways.” (Ps. 119 passim)

Jesus did not always refer to scriptures, and when He did, that only proves the Catholic position on the valid material sufficiency of scriptures, and none of this has anything to do with the testimony of Francis Beckwith, and it does not answer the question, Where does it say in the bible that it HAS to be in the bible?

To be clear, the doctrine that ‘only doctrines must be explicitly found in the Bible’ is not in the Bible. It is a man-made doctrine, unless you can provide a verse that explicitly states otherwise. Since you are at a loss as to provide scriptural support for this invention, your only choice is to:

1. ignore the question
2. change the subject
3. humble yourself before God and admit this man made doctrine you have been following is false.

And I urge you to read the link in the OP, it’s no threat to you.

and try to stay on topic. Welcome to CA forums.

 

[kepha1]

americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar2010/Feature2.asp#F4

“How could I accept the Protestant idea of sola Scriptura, that is, Scripture alone, and at the same time reject those distinctively Catholic doctrines like apostolic succession, eucharistic realism and the Sacrament of Penance?” Beckwith asked himself. “The very people in the early Church who decided what constituted the canon of Scripture [the official list of approved biblical books] believed those other things were obviously true. How could I cherry-pick the tradition in an intellectually honest way? And I just couldn’t.”

He felt the burden of proof shift away from the Church and back to him. He asked himself, “How can I believe that everything Catholics are doing in the Mass and with penance and confession is wrong, but the Church is right about the Bible? I couldn’t reconcile that.”

The next paragraphs discuss the reformers penal atonement theory and how it could not be found in any writings of the early Christians.

 

[anode]

Dr. Beckwith’s Return to Rome book is excellent. I highly recommend it to everyone.

I personally think that these testimonials are worthless.

So many former Catholics convert to Protestant denominations, as diverse as the Episcopal church, Unitarians and Quakers, that they usually aren’t kept track of.

 

[wmscott]

I personally think that these testimonials are worthless.

So many former Catholics convert to Protestant denominations, as diverse as the Episcopal church, Unitarians and Quakers, that they usually aren’t kept track of.

I am curious as to why you thing that these testimonials are worthless. Did you even read the article? By your statement, I do not think so. Is it because it all too clearly illustrates the error of separation of Christ’s Church? Is it because someone who left Christ’s Church, then rise to the position as president of the Evangelical Theological Society, may illuminate the errors of that separation to the point that you and others may have to take a more deeper look at yourselves and question your own personal brand of theology? What would happen next if you did, could it be that you would have to then look to the One Church Christ established? Is it because you are afraid of what you will see and learn about the error of separation from Christ’s Church? Interesting how easily you dismiss this.

 

[theoldman]

People that are weak in their faith are always looking for something better but that does not mean that what might look better is always right

the old man

 

[Third_Day]

=Berean2;6491325]“It is how you live every part of your life.” Yes, agreed, but the faith has to be anchored in Truth.

How do you decide what is “truth” without a teaching Church that has been divinely established to teach the “truth?”

Which brings us back to Paul’s “Test all things.”

“Test all things” according to the understanding of the Church not to the understanding of individuals. The Bereans accepted Paul’s interpretation of scripture. They could not understand it on their own. Paul was a Bishop of the Church. He had teaching authority.

 

[lovemyboys]

People that are weak in their faith are always looking for something better but that does not mean that what might look better is always right

the old man

I disagree-- I think that people who genuinely feel the pull to God will keep looking for the TRUTH until they feel they have found it. People who keep looking for the TRUTH are the STRONGEST in their faith-- not people who blindly accept whatever religion they fell into at birth.

 

[anode]

I am curious as to why you thing that these testimonials are worthless. Did you even read the article? By your statement, I do not think so. Is it because it all too clearly illustrates the error of separation of Christ’s Church? Is it because someone who left Christ’s Church, then rise to the position as president of the Evangelical Theological Society, may illuminate the errors of that separation to the point that you and others may have to take a more deeper look at yourselves and question your own personal brand of theology? What would happen next if you did, could it be that you would have to then look to the One Church Christ established? Is it because you are afraid of what you will see and learn about the error of separation from Christ’s Church? Interesting how easily you dismiss this.

A leading evangelical is just the sort to convert from one authoritative religious belief to another. It’s not surprising. Occasionally Orthodox Jews convert to Catholicism and–surprise!–the reverse happens also. For people who want to be* told *what to believe, how to think, and how to behave in every corner of their existence, it really doesn’t matter who or what is doing the directing.

 

[wmscott]

A leading evangelical is just the sort to convert from one authoritative religious belief to another. It’s not surprising. Occasionally Orthodox Jews convert to Catholicism and–surprise!–the reverse happens also. For people who want to be* told *what to believe, how to think, and how to behave in every corner of their existence, it really doesn’t matter who or what is doing the directing.

I guess it would be nice to know what religious philosophy you follow, it may help me in how i mat ask a question or respond to you, do you mind sharing? thanks

 

[prodigal-sun]

A leading evangelical is just the sort to convert from one authoritative religious belief to another. It’s not surprising. Occasionally Orthodox Jews convert to Catholicism and–surprise!–the reverse happens also. *For people who want to be told ***what to believe, how to think, and how to behave in every corner of their existence, it really doesn’t matter who or what is doing the directing.

I would have to disagree, I hate being told what to do and how to think. It would be so much easier to not be religious at all. But as a person who seeks the trruth, I can not seperate from it was I have found it. It is the a persons pride that does not allow a person to been shown the truth. As I can easily see with your statement above you think because I’m Catholic I can not think for myself, but it was thinking for myself that brought my to the truth.

Peace!