Just got back from Steubenville

[graceandglory]

Accusations of heresy without details or supporting evidence is usually called detraction. Just saying…

All Steubenville theology professors have to sign an oath of fidelity to the teaching of the church, so I doubt there was heresy.

• Theologians’ Oath: Canon 833: Catholic theologians are personally bound to make a profession of faith, according to the formula approved by the Apostolic See, in the presence of the university president if he is a priest, or the diocesan bishop or a delegate, at the beginning of their term of office.

The Profession of Faith and the Oath of Fidelity, Acta Apostolicae Sedis 1989: The obligation of a special oath of fidelity has been extended to Catholic theology professors.

ncregister.com/site/article/16007/#_The_survey2

 

[cheese_sdc]

Back in the day, when I was a teenager, I went to a couple of the events in Steubenville (three, I think). I even volunteered (as an adult) at one of the conferences in Alexandria, LA (as a favor to those organizing it, by that time, I’d grown to pretty much hate anything having to do with the Charismatic Renewal, or the Youth Culture in the Catholic Church).

I am dead serious when I say this: If you put a gun to my head, I would fight rather than endure a Steubenville style youth conference or charismatic prayer meeting again. I’d rather die than set foot in one of those hellhouses again.

 

[The_Bucket]

Yeah, they can be, but you’re not addressing the faithful ones who leave the church because they feel it’s dead.

Children aren’t adults. Teenagers aren’t adults. Teenagers approach their personal relationship with Christ in a completely different way.

Personally I didn’t, and frankly many of the people who did the whole “praise Jesus, hallelujah” swaying side to side when a hymn was being sung nonsense were irreverent and not serious about their faith. Now, I would definitely again qualify that by reiterating that such was my personal experience, it is not applicable to everyone.

Mass is a solemn and serious thing. I’m not an extremist who hates today’s Mass form or anything weird like that. I like the Latin Mass quite a bit, but being able to, you know, actually understand the prayers and readings is nice. But we’re still in the very real, physical presence of God. Clapping while singing, swaying side to side to “feel the Spirit” (what a joke) and walking all over the place is irreverent. Teens can understand that they need to be respectful and serious during Mass… they do it in school, right?

And then when Mass is over or before Mass begins, they can sing praise songs, dance and shout to the heavens how much they love God all they want!

 

[The_Bucket]

I am dead serious when I say this: If you put a gun to my head, I would fight rather than endure a Steubenville style youth conference or charismatic prayer meeting again. I’d rather die than set foot in one of those hellhouses again.

So would I, but then again I’m a former mixed martial artist and I quite enjoy a good fight.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

I am dead serious when I say this: If you put a gun to my head, I would fight rather than endure a Steubenville style youth conference or charismatic prayer meeting again. I’d rather die than set foot in one of those hellhouses again.

I have to agree with you. The conferences are waaaay too emotional and the music, singing, and talks are pretty much torture for me. I found the whole experience was insipid and uninspiring. It is as if they take the d-list Jesus spin that protestants put on contemporary culture and then give that a d-list Catholic spin. I find myself much more attracted to the TLM or Orthodox liturgy; it reminds me of a time when Christian art didn’t suck.

 

[Cupofkindness]

It seems that there are several harsh replies. To the OP, keep searching for Christ. The best place to begin (and end) is Mass and Adoration. Try not to judge but of course do recognize when something is not right for you, personally. I have been to Stuebenville, so I have an idea of what you are describing. I’m sorry it didn’t appeal to you.

Interesting comments about ACTS (I would tend to agree), the Charismatic Renewal (I would tend to agree). However, the comment about Life Teen is a bit one-sided. It varies from parish to parish. One of our local churches has “sent” perhaps 12 young men into seminaries due in large part to the formation received and the community provided by Life Teen over the past 10 years. One was ordained a couple of weeks ago. He said his first or second Mass at our Youth/Life Teen Mass (he was ordained the day before, I’m not sure if that is their first Mass as new priests?). When done correctly, Life Teen touches the hearts and souls of many teens who might otherwise leave the church. It’s not perfect, but at least it is something in place for our teens.

 

[Adeodatus]

I know I’ll have to explain my position to them (as I’m sure they’ve assumed I loved it and want to go back) but I just don’t know how to without the possibility that I may offend them or hurt them. We’re having a family get together soon and I know that one of my family members who didn’t go will ask my opinion of it. How do I explain this without offending my other family members who are so gung-ho about it?

Just like you did. I thought your explanation was very clear. Don’t be surprised if you get some emotionality back, though… if it’s an emotion-fest and they love it then their responses may reflect that.

Out of curiosity, have you ever attended Mass in the Extraordinary Form, i.e. the Tridentine Latin Mass? If you are spiritually enlivened by seeing reverence before the Eucharist, I think you’d love it.

 

[EasterJoy]

Personally I didn’t, and frankly many of the people who did the whole “praise Jesus, hallelujah” swaying side to side when a hymn was being sung nonsense were irreverent and not serious about their faith. Now, I would definitely again qualify that by reiterating that such was my personal experience, it is not applicable to everyone.

Mass is a solemn and serious thing. I’m not an extremist who hates today’s Mass form or anything weird like that. I like the Latin Mass quite a bit, but being able to, you know, actually understand the prayers and readings is nice. But we’re still in the very real, physical presence of God. Clapping while singing, swaying side to side to “feel the Spirit” (what a joke) and walking all over the place is irreverent. Teens can understand that they need to be respectful and serious during Mass… they do it in school, right?

And then when Mass is over or before Mass begins, they can sing praise songs, dance and shout to the heavens how much they love God all they want!

Be very, very careful. You are venturing towards ground where angels fear to tread.

He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. "Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:9-14

Ask yourself, which of the two men in the parable above would be more likely to say the following?
“frankly many of the people who did the whole “praise Jesus, hallelujah” swaying side to side when a hymn was being sung nonsense were irreverent and not serious about their faith”

Who are you to decide that someone else is not serious about their faith? Who are you to read another person’s heart? What puts other teens in your jurisdiction? You can encourage fellow teens toward greater virtue without ever forming an opinion about the state of their souls or the seriousness of their faith.

You cannot be reverent on one hand and judge your brother’s heart on the other, because Fear of the Lord requires humility. It is one thing to say “such and so action is outside the rubrics” or “this kind of music does not meet the requirements in Church documents” or “such and so actions during Mass are not outwardly reverent”. It is quite another to say “that person is not serious about the faith”, particularly when you imply that you, by contrast, are serious! Take care not to do that! Pride is the snare the devil sets to catch the fish who have gotten big by staying out of his nets. It is his favorite way to ruin saints, and scandalize the world against the faith in the bargain…a very economical method. Beware of it, as you value your life.

If you didn’t like the Steubenville conference, you don’t have to apologize to anyone, nor do you have to pronounce a judgement on anyone. It is enough that you don’t care to go again. The main thing is to keep the main thing, though! Whatever you do, stay within the boundaries given in the plain meaning of the Gospels.

 

[justamoose89]

Be very, very careful. You are venturing towards ground where angels fear to tread.

I have to agree with EasterJoy here.

“When those who were carrying the ark of the LORD had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.” 2 Samuel 6:13-15

We see David getting pretty enthusiastic about the Lord here. I think while He demands our respect and reverence, He appreciates our enthusiasm That being said, we all express enthusiasm in different ways.

 

[lilred5]

I’m sorry you had a bad experience. Maybe you should try the Notre Dame “NDVision.” I liked that a lot better.

I will look into that, thank you for the recommendation.

Praise God that you are where you are! You have a maturity that surpasses my own kids. Thank you for the explanation. I am signing my teens up for Steubenville tomorrow, and from what you wrote, I think it will be AWESOME!!

You see, my kids are converts from protestantism and were just baptized when they were 12. Orthodoxy is great and all, but they are really missing the experiential part of their Christian walk. They are so close to saying, “Yeah, we know the Catholic CHurch is the True Church, but we wanna go over there with our friends where the worship is better.”

To be able to offer them an opportunity to experience this within the Catholic Church, is a great gift. Sure we have to drive over 1000 miles to get there. I don’t want them to fall out of the Barque of Peter. I want them to know that what they want is right here in the universal church. Their own youth group is so dead they tell me. Now that they’re confirmed, less kids will be showing up next year.

I don’t want them to leave the Church like I did chasing after a personal encounter with Christ that I felt I had in the other churches.

Maybe instead of going back for yourself, you can ask your family to sponsor someone else in your parish who wouldn’t have the chance to go next year.

In your case, I think your children will love the experience and hope that they do. But I will definately talk to my family about sponsoring someone next year.

When your relatives ask how it was, just say, “I went expecting to like it, I wanted to like it, there were things about it that were fine and some that were really good, but it didn’t do it for me. The next time I go to a youth conference or go on retreat, I’m going to try somewhere else.”

Answer all ensuing questions with: “I don’t want to pick it apart or criticize. I know a lot of people do like it. I just know I won’t be going back. I’ll make my retreat somewhere else. When I’ve had a chance to think it all over and decided where that’s going to be, I’ll let you know.”

By the time you are ready to go on retreat again, you’ll have somewhere else researched that you will be all excited about. As I’m sure it will be perfectly orthodox, what can they say?

If they decide to get offended or hurt because you don’t like all the things they like, that is their issue. In fact, if they were to express offense, I’d express surprise: “Gee, you don’t need to take it so personally. Thousands of youth loved it. I’m just not one of them. There are a billion Catholics in the world, there is room for differences. I’m sure the people back in Ohio will understand.”

Thank you for being one of the few to answer my question and I think I’ll use your words.

Out of curiosity, have you ever attended Mass in the Extraordinary Form, i.e. the Tridentine Latin Mass? If you are spiritually enlivened by seeing reverence before the Eucharist, I think you’d love it.

I have wanted to for a long time now but the one nearest to me has the Latin Mass at 9:30 and I’m expected to be at my Grandmother’s or babysitting (depending on the weekend) at 10:30 so it wouldn’t work out. But I start college in the fall and I think I’ll have the opportunity to then.

Who are you to decide that someone else is not serious about their faith? Who are you to read another person’s heart? What puts other teens in your jurisdiction? You can encourage fellow teens toward greater virtue without ever forming an opinion about the state of their souls or the seriousness of their faith.

You cannot be reverent on one hand and judge your brother’s heart on the other, because Fear of the Lord requires humility. It is one thing to say “such and so action is outside the rubrics” or “this kind of music does not meet the requirements in Church documents” or “such and so actions during Mass are not outwardly reverent”. It is quite another to say “that person is not serious about the faith”, particularly when you imply that you, by contrast, are serious! Take care not to do that! Pride is the snare the devil sets to catch the fish who have gotten big by staying out of his nets. It is his favorite way to ruin saints, and scandalize the world against the faith in the bargain…a very economical method. Beware of it, as you value your life.

If you didn’t like the Steubenville conference, you don’t have to apologize to anyone, nor do you have to pronounce a judgement on anyone. It is enough that you don’t care to go again. The main thing is to keep the main thing, though! Whatever you do, stay within the boundaries given in the plain meaning of the Gospels.

Is this a response to me or to The Bucket? Because if it is to me I though that I had expressed that I was not pronouncing judgment on others seeing as I did enjoy parts and do understand how people can get a great spiritual refreshment out of it. Like I said, it is just not for me, that is a statement that involves no other person than myself nor is it stating that the other teens were not serious with their faith because it was obvious that they were.

 

[EasterJoy]

Is this a response to me or to The Bucket? Because if it is to me I though that I had expressed that I was not pronouncing judgment on others seeing as I did enjoy parts and do understand how people can get a great spiritual refreshment out of it. Like I said, it is just not for me, that is a statement that involves no other person than myself nor is it stating that the other teens were not serious with their faith because it was obvious that they were.

To the Bucket…and it is just a warning. Going over the line from “that action is unacceptable” to “that person must be unacceptable in order to act that way” is very easy to do and very rarely meant the way it comes out. The tempter can spring that trap very subtly. It is a really, really important line to keep away from, though!

Sticking with “that action is unacceptable”, or in your case “that kind of prayer distracts my heart far more than it elevates it” is all the judging we need to do. We can leave lifting the hood and looking into the heart to God. (Well, except when the heart is our own!)

 

[snowlake]

I had the same experience years ago at Steubenville. If the school is as orthodox as
it claims to be, the Mass would be very different. It’s one thing to hear music like this
at a prayer group or some other kind of outside-of-the-Mass venue, but to include this
secular-style music in the Mass is very irreverent. I’m not saying that the individuals in
charge MEANT to be irreverent , but that, OBJECTIVELY speaking, this was very much
not in sync with the teaching church. The Mass is SACRED and calls for music that is
SACRED (set apart). If the words (of the music you spoke of)were changed, the music would “fit- in” in just about any
secular situation (the mall, a rock concert, a cocktail lounge, a coffeehouse).
But if you change the words of a traditional-style hymn or Gregorian chant, it would
certainly not fit-in in any af these secular venues.That is because it is written in a style
that is set-apart (Sacred).
The style of the priestly vestments and the vessels used in the Mass are in a
sacred style. What if the priest wore a football jersey and cut-off jeans to celebrate
the Mass? What if we used Coke bottles for the Cup , or plastic bowls with Smurf
designs on it for the ciborium? Would not that be considered irreverent?
Likewise, the holy words of the hymns and liturgical texts need to be in “sacred”
vessels.
The music, etc., that you speak of is not inherently “bad”, it’s just not for the Mass.
Any other Catholic get-together might profit from it.

 

[snowlake]

Also, it might be good to look up the statements of both Pope John Paul II and our
current Holy Father, Benedict the VI on music in the Liturgy. You will find that their
assessment of the situation does not jive w/ the “contemporary” music found at
many Masses.
It is also interesting to point out the similarity between this obnoxious (but well-meant)
music (and odd behavior) with that of some of the newly popular Protestant mega-churches. No matter how SINCERE everyone is, or however WELL-MEANING, there
comes a time for proper catechesis about liturgical matters and a sincere commitment
to the Faith that doesn’t rely so much on popular sentiment, feelings and the emotional
“engineering” that takes place in such environments.
How about using this type of thing at other Catholic gatherings, and using it as a means to
teach about the Mass, and why it is different than the meeting that is going on?Explain
about the awesome sacredness of the Mass, and why the art, vestments, vessels AND
music should reflect this. Not just the WORDS of the music, but the actual compositional
styles and instrumentations used.

 

[Flamingo]

My opinion on the music…I attended Steubenville conferance last year and my experience was quite the opposite. I felt like we had Praise and Worship times that were very upbeat or contemporary? I don’t know the right words for it, but it was louder, I guess you could say. We’d have some time with loud music before Mass but once Mass started the music was much softer and much more serious. There was definitely a change in tone from the louder music of before Mass vs. the music and instruments used during Mass. Honestly, I think that it also depends on what Steubenville Conferance location you’re at and whose doing the music.

 

[ac_claire]

To address the OP’s question: I wouldn’t make too big a deal out of it when explaining it to your family (if it comes up). Just chalk it up to being “not your style” and go into details only if they ask. I think if you approach it that way, nobody is apt to get defensive or offended if *they *actually had a completely different experience than you.

Then you can start looking into if there are more traditional conferences/retreats being offered. I’ve heard they are out there, just not as prevalent as the Life Teen-style thing unfortunately.

 

[ack]

I think you need to clarify how adoration “freaked” you and your friends out.

I didn’t think there was anything unclear about her statement.

If you ever go to a conference or a similar event (such as a Festival of Praise) at Steubenville, you’ll see what I mean. The mood of the adoration hour is extremely charismatic. Many people are fainting, speaking in tongues, or walking around strangely. There is an emphasis on miracles (healings, etc) and there is an expectation that such things will happen at the adoration.

Now, strictly speaking, nothing is wrong with this – if you aren’t interested in charismatic worship, you don’t have to participate. However, in some cases, things during the adoration begin getting out of control. There were some problems at Steubenville (during the time period that the original poster referred to) where an advisor stopped the adoration early, because they felt like people were going beyond charismatic worship and were falling into mass hysteria.

Hopefully, Steubenville has corrected these problems, and these situations no longer occur.

 

[PatriceA]

I didn’t think there was anything unclear about her statement.

If you ever go to a conference or a similar event (such as a Festival of Praise) at Steubenville, you’ll see what I mean. The mood of the adoration hour is extremely charismatic. Many people are fainting, speaking in tongues, or walking around strangely. There is an emphasis on miracles (healings, etc) and there is an expectation that such things will happen at the adoration.

Now, strictly speaking, nothing is wrong with this – if you aren’t interested in charismatic worship, you don’t have to participate. However, in some cases, things during the adoration begin getting out of control. There were some problems at Steubenville (during the time period that the original poster referred to) where an advisor stopped the adoration early, because they felt like people were going beyond charismatic worship and were falling into mass hysteria.

Hopefully, Steubenville has corrected these problems, and these situations no longer occur.

My experinces at the Festival of Praises have been nothing like you described. Sure its energetic and the music is very contemporary. BUT, I have never seen things being out of control during adoration. And I attend the Festivals several times during the year. I’ve always come away with being very, very uplifted and inspired by so many college age students have such reverance and respect during adoration.

 

[ac_claire]

My experinces at the Festival of Praises have been nothing like you described. Sure its energetic and the music is very contemporary. BUT, I have never seen things being out of control during adoration. And I attend the Festivals several times during the year. I’ve always come away with being very, very uplifted and inspired by so many college age students have such reverance and respect during adoration.

But your experience with the Festival of Praises doesn’t negate what ack and the OP are saying they have experienced and have heard/read about. Different conferences, different experiences. I used to go to the Youth 2000 conferences and usually the adoration hours were more like you described, but on one or two occasions I did witness some…things which were more like what ack described. And we have no reason to discount all the other people who’ve noticed these things to the point where it’s now a documented phenomenon and, according to some, a genuine problem that needed to be addressed by those in charge.

 

[PatriceA]

But your experience with the Festival of Praises doesn’t negate what ack and the OP are saying they have experienced and have heard/read about. Different conferences, different experiences. I used to go to the Youth 2000 conferences and usually the adoration hours were more like you described, but on one or two occasions I did witness some…things which were more like what ack described. And we have no reason to discount all the other people who’ve noticed these things to the point where it’s now a documented phenomenon and, according to some, a genuine problem that needed to be addressed by those in charge.

Ack is the one that brought up the Festival of Praises, that was what I was addressing.

And many people in this thread have already pointed out that the experiences depended upon the location, but that hasn’t stopped some people from actually attacking the University and any experience I’ve had at the actual University, have been nothing but respectful and relevant.

 

[ack]

My experinces at the Festival of Praises have been nothing like you described. Sure its energetic and the music is very contemporary. BUT, I have never seen things being out of control during adoration. And I attend the Festivals several times during the year. I’ve always come away with being very, very uplifted and inspired by so many college age students have such reverance and respect during adoration.

If your experiences in Steubenville are recent, then I am happy that you did not observe these problems, because this may mean that things are being managed better nowadays.

A while back, about 5-10 years ago, I used to go to the festivals of praise. While they were mostly worthwhile and uplifting, there were some occasions where things might have been getting out of hand. During at least one Eucharistic FOP, people were behaving inappropriately, and Fr. Scanlan stepped in and ended it early. There were no more Eucharistic FOPs for a while after that (although I don’t remember if that was the reason why.) I also had an experience with the prayer teams that (although it seemed to make sense in the heat of the moment) seems very odd and intrusive in retrospect.

Since the 1980s, the trend (over the long term) has been that the outward, charismatic expressions at Steubenville are becoming more subdued. It would not surprise me if things that would “freak people out” are not occurring as often.