Just got home from Mass :(

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Benedictgal, I know you like having the last word, however, I repeat:
  1. The RS does not use the term “first point of contact” and
  2. I am certain that RS is talking about submitting one’s complaint to the Bishop first when the choice is either the Bishop or the Apostolic See.
 
It is not about having the last word. Read the Remedy section. Nowhere does it mention “priest”. The bishop is the one who is ultimately responsible for what goes on in the churches under his care. That is why he is the first point of contact.

As I said earlier, I do not have my usual fight, but, we need to look at the remedy section. The answers are right there.
 
benedictgal said:
As I am waiting to see the doctor, I do not have the energy for my usual debates; however, whe you look at the remedy section, it does not state to go to the priest first. It states that the bishop is the first point ot contact.
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Well, your health it is much more important that discussing this topic with me. Whether one of us is right or wrong it is not going to impact my life in a significant manner. I rather hear that you are relaxing before seeing the doctor, those appointments if not stressful are at least annoying. Take care of yourself and have a nice weekend.
Blessings
 
jpjd said:
…FIRST, the OP should schedule a meeting with the priest. They should go over everything she has a question about. She should come prepared with the documentation of the proper rubrics, and then ask him if he plans to follow them now that the matter has been brought to his attention. THEN if he does not incorporate the necessary changes in subsequent Masses, she should go to the Bishop.
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A few comments about how this approach is generally impractical:
  • In my experience, most priests don’t like it when parishioners come in with lists. It might be better to casually ask about ONE of the abuses, after Mass, after the priest finishes the hand-shaking, if the priest isn’t in heavy dialogue with others and doesn’t seem to be rushed to go somewhere. Some priests always seem rushed because they don’t want to talk with people; some priests are very sociable. Maybe observe the priest after Mass for a couple of weeks.
  • Most people work 8 to 5 on weekdays. Most priests will only schedule meetings during the parish’s office hours, and very rarely during evenings or weekends. When someone calls the parish staff to make an appointment, the staff asks “what do you want to meet Father about?” “I need to talk with Father about some abuses I’ve seen during Mass” is not likely to be considered an important enough reason for an evening or weekend appointment.
  • If the complainer succeeds in scheduling an appointment with the priest, in my experience there is a huge risk that the priest would be defensive and impatient, perhaps downright arrogant and antagonistic, no matter how correct the complainer might be about the liturgical abuses taking place and how nicely he/she may present the information. If the complainer is involved in any parish ministry or hopes to become involved in one, he/she will from then on have a negative reputation and will be shunned or held at arms’ length, and possibly not be respected for the skills and gifts he/she has to offer the parish.
  • Does the poster really believe a parishioner can get away with this question without repercussion? "…then ask him if he plans to follow them now that the matter has been brought to his attention."
  • If the complainer writes a letter, there may be less risk (or not) – and the complainer would probably not receive a reply.
KEEP IN MIND, as baltobetsy said, IT TAKES TIME TO IMPLEMENT CHANGES, and this priest is new to the parish. At the very least he needs to educate the liturgy committee, re-train the servers and EMHCs, and formulate how to best approach that and schedule the meetings to do it. Give the priest a chance!
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This is a true and realistic. It is very possible the new priest is very aware of the abuses and will address them on his own gradually.
 
As this thread has jumped back up I thought I would update. I haven’t actually been back to Mass at the parish concerned but I have heard through the ‘grapevine’, that nothing has changed. My nephew is making his first Holy Communion in the other Mass centre of this Parish, with the same priest, at the end of this month. My sister went to an info night and they were told that the 'children’s Mass" will be used. This is on a normal sunday Mass, in fact the ONLY sunday Mass at that church.

If things are the same at that Mass (at which I have been asked to read the intecessory prayers) I will approach Fr afterwards and then take it further. As for those who mentioned he was new to the parish, you were right, I did raise my concerns with him and felt that there was real hope of change but at the time of posting the OP nothing had changed. I let you know how the FHC goes.!
 
bejonama said:
As this thread has jumped back up I thought I would update. I haven’t actually been back to Mass at the parish concerned but I have heard through the ‘grapevine’, that nothing has changed…
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I understand that the whole thing frustrates you but please make sure that you do turn into the habit of gossiping about a priest. Sin of detraction is another risk for our souls.
 
bejonama said:
As this thread has jumped back up I thought I would update. I haven’t actually been back to Mass at the parish concerned but I have heard through the ‘grapevine’, that nothing has changed. My nephew is making his first Holy Communion in the other Mass centre of this Parish, with the same priest, at the end of this month. My sister went to an info night and they were told that the 'children’s Mass" will be used. This is on a normal sunday Mass, in fact the ONLY sunday Mass at that church.

If things are the same at that Mass (at which I have been asked to read the intecessory prayers) I will approach Fr afterwards and then take it further. As for those who mentioned he was new to the parish, you were right, I did raise my concerns with him and felt that there was real hope of change but at the time of posting the OP nothing had changed. I let you know how the FHC goes.!
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Not sure about the land “down under”, but I know here int he US, using on of the Eucharistic Prayers for use with children, is an acceptable and often used practice during First Communion Masses.

Regarding the bolded part- your OP is from March, how long has this new priest been in the parish, and did you expect him to just come in and make all the changes you think are needed immediatly? I am not trying to be “snarky”, I am just curious as to what you think is a “proper time table”. In many of the parishes in my area, abuses have crept in over a number of years, and many people are very comforatable with them. And everytime a new priest comes in and trys to change things immediatly, there is a great backlash.

Remember, slow & steady wins the race!! 😉
 
There was around a month between when I spoke to him and when I posted after attending Mass. My impression was that the abuses had actually got worse since the previous priest. My guess is that the already strong lay leaders were now attempting to run the Parish. One of the things that we discussed was the laity speaking the doxology, he agreed it wasn’t correct and I suggested politely that not invinting them to join himin saying it might help. He did express to me that it would take time, I agreed, but at the same time I wonder if not taking some action immediately implies agreement, especially when the abuses are so obvious. I hope and pray that this parish will implement the new translation and that, through that process he will take the opportunity to amend the many abuses.

I am not in the habit of gossiping about the priest. The ‘grapevine’, was a poor attempt at humor- you know, Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. My sister attends there regularly and voices her concerns; Like the Sunday Fr said, we all know what we believe already, we won’t worry about the creed today-!

I don’t expect everything to be fixed immediately but I did expect some evidence of improvement.
 
Redemptionis Sacramentum 184. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.
Nothing in RS 184 forbids a person from speaking with their parish priest about the alleged liturgical abuse. What RS 184 does say is that all Catholics have the right to “lodge a complaint” to their diocesan bishop or to the Apostolic See, but that if they do so, it is fitting to submit the report first to the bishop (instead of going over his head to Rome). RS 184 does not regulate the interaction between a Catholic and a parish priest, regarding liturgical abuse, possibly because it is the bishop’s task (and not the parish priest’s) to “regulate the liturgy.” (RS 22)

To infer from RS 184 that it is forbidden (or improper) to speak to a priest or deacon about a liturgical abuse, or even to address the priest or deacon alleged to have committed said abuse about the matter, is to read something that is not there. RS 184 is letting Catholics know that they have recourse to their bishop and to the Apostolic See… perhaps because some think they cannot go “over the head” of their local pastor.
 
Cristiano said:
Well, your health it is much more important that discussing this topic with me. Whether one of us is right or wrong it is not going to impact my life in a significant manner. I rather hear that you are relaxing before seeing the doctor, those appointments if not stressful are at least annoying. Take care of yourself and have a nice weekend.
Blessings
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What an amusing exchange to witness! Love your attitude, Cristiano and jpjd.

Happy Easter to all!

(and to all a good night :))
 
1
I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship.
2
Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.
3
For by the grace given to me I tell everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than one ought to think, but to think soberly, each according to the measure of faith that God has apportioned.
4
For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function,
5
so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another.
6
Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us exercise them: if prophecy, in proportion to the faith;
7
if ministry, in ministering; if one is a teacher, in teaching;
8
if one exhorts, in exhortation; if one contributes, in generosity; if one is over others, with diligence; if one does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
9
Let love be sincere; hate what is evil, hold on to what is good;
10
love one another with mutual affection; anticipate one another in showing honor.
11
Do not grow slack in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
12
Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer.
13
Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality.
14
Bless those who persecute (you), bless and do not curse them.
15
Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
16
Have the same regard for one another; do not be haughty but associate with the lowly; do not be wise in your own estimation.
17
Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all.
18
If possible, on your part, live at peace with all.
19
Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
20
Rather, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.”
21
Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good.
 
bejonama said:
TOne of the things that we discussed was the laity speaking the doxology, he agreed it wasn’t correct and I suggested politely that not invinting them to join himin saying it might help. He did express to me that it would take time, I agreed, but at the same time I wonder if not taking some action immediately implies agreement, especially when the abuses are so obvious.
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In my hometown parish the laity were also reciting the doxology. A replacement came to celebrate Sunday Mass while Fr. was on holidays and when the laity started reciting this he stopped cold and said, “I don’t know what you think you’re doing but this part of the Mass belongs only to the priest.” That was the end of the practice in the parish.

When something so wrong is being done, pussyfooting around is not being pastoral. Just say “NO!” and stop it.
 
My Nephew’s First Holy Communion is this Sunday coming. My sister went to another child from her son’s class’s FHC last Saturday night. To say the least-she is concerned! I will be talking to Father afterwards if things are as they were last saturday and I will then pass it on to the bishop.
 
quiet52 said:
  • Most people work 8 to 5 on weekdays. Most priests will only schedule meetings during the parish’s office hours, and very rarely during evenings or weekends. When someone calls the parish staff to make an appointment, the staff asks “what do you want to meet Father about?” “I need to talk with Father about some abuses I’ve seen during Mass” is not likely to be considered an important enough reason for an evening or weekend appointment.
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Well, then go to the bishop. That should be a no brainer.
Phemie said:
A replacement came to celebrate Sunday Mass while Fr. was on holidays and when the laity started reciting this he stopped cold and said, “I don’t know what you think you’re doing but this part of the Mass belongs only to the priest.” That was the end of the practice in the parish.

When something so wrong is being done, pussyfooting around is not being pastoral. Just say “NO!” and stop it.
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That’s great. Not to mention very pastoral. That is what they needed to hear, so he told them. Pastoral does not mean “do what makes people happy”.
 
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