Just how important IS music in the Mass, anyway?

[SMHW]

Exactly. This has been my experience, too.

In fact, you don’t suppose that it’s not the celibacy vow that frightens young men away from even considering the possibility that they are called to the priesthood, but instead, the knowledge that they will be expected to sing/chant all by themselves IN FRONT OF PEOPLE!! :bigyikes::frighten::nope:

I’d laugh…but it’s actually rather sad.

A number of priests I have encountered over the years have pleasant voices and they actually like to sing/chant. But I think they just get nervous without the support of other voices. I understand that. A lot of choir members have the same problem; they can sing well enough with others, but not alone.

It’s easy enough for confident singers to drop a half step too far and have difficulty finding the correct pitch again. When you have a dialogue between less than confident singers who knows where you’ll end up?

 

[Phemie]

I’d laugh…but it’s actually rather sad.

A number of priests I have encountered over the years have pleasant voices and they actually like to sing/chant. But I think they just get nervous without the support of other voices. I understand that. A lot of choir members have the same problem; they can sing well enough with others, but not alone.

It’s easy enough for confident singers to drop a half step too far and have difficulty finding the correct pitch again. When you have a dialogue between less than confident singers who knows where you’ll end up?

OTOH, we had an elderly priest who couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket but insisted on chanting the Preface at most Masses. The religious brother who was in our parish at the time even invited him to refrain from doing so because of his voice but he refused to stop because to him it was the minimum he could do. I saw him spend a lot of time at the altar practicing it during the week to be able to sing it on Sunday and I admired him for the effort. He would have sung the EP every Sunday if he’d been able to pull it off.

His efforts gave me the guts to attempt and succeed at chanting Evening Prayer, including the Prayer of Thanksgiving for Light. That said, I find it impossible to sing with another person or with accompaniment and a key note on a pitch pipe means nothing to me. I was asked to sing one of the Psalms at the Easter Vigil and let’s say that that was the last thing I ever expected to be asked to do. Someone asked the choir director what key I’d be singing in - her reply: “We’ll find out when she sings the first note.”

Yes, I’m in a small parish and we have few people who can really sing solo in our choir. The choir director is one and her assistant is the other. The rest of us pitch in when asked and I’ve seen Vigils when two people sang a Psalm together because alone neither can be heard. That’s what you get in small parishes.

 

[SMHW]

OTOH, we had an elderly priest who couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket but insisted on chanting the Preface at most Masses. The religious brother who was in our parish at the time even invited him to refrain from doing so because of his voice but he refused to stop because to him it was the minimum he could do. I saw him spend a lot of time at the altar practicing it during the week to be able to sing it on Sunday and I admired him for the effort.

I have great admiration for those who try!

And it is usually the case that a priest needs to practice during Mass. One’s voice does not sound the same to oneself in a church with bodies in it as compared to an empty church, a private office, a car, or a shower. Add that to any fear factor…

For me personally I have to imagine a note before I can attempt to sing it. I don’t know if that’s how it works for other people or for priests/deacons in particular. I suspect it’s a rather individual thing. Most of the time hearing the note played on an instrument helps me. But there are just some pitches that I can’t hear in my own head even if I hear them immediately before hand.

---

But my original point remains. If a priest doesn’t sing/chant/intone something well he is not likely to inspire a well sung response.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Entrance ( sets mood for Mass ) doesn’t need to be music, but does influence the whole mass.
Gloria can be spoken; but so much more joyful & glorious sung
Psalms Response is typically liturgically sung ( as David sang them )
Gospel Acclamation is typically sung.
Hosanna (Holy Acclamation) a song ( believed that the Seraphim sing perpetually to God )
Memorial acclamation can be spoken/sung.
Amen can be spoken/sung.
Fractional rite/lamb God: spoken or sung
Communion Processional: could be skipped, but missed
Recessional: could also be skipped but missed

I suppose if a parish priest really needed to cut music, He could. It would be less than heavenly 4 sure

 

[Phemie]

Entrance ( sets mood for Mass ) doesn’t need to be music, but does influence the whole mass.
Gloria can be spoken; but so much more joyful & glorious sung
Psalms Response is typically liturgically sung ( as David sang them )
Gospel Acclamation is typically sung.
Hosanna (Holy Acclamation) a song ( believed that the Seraphim sing perpetually to God )
Memorial acclamation can be spoken/sung.
Amen can be spoken/sung.
Fractional rite/lamb God: spoken or sung
Communion Processional: could be skipped, but missed
Recessional: could also be skipped but missed

I suppose if a parish priest really needed to cut music, He could. It would be less than heavenly 4 sure

We’ve become so used to the four-hymn sandwich that we forget, if we ever knew, that Rome issued a document 40 years ago that says that the most important things to sing is the dialog and that if that is not sung nothing else should be.

 

[Crumpy]

From a different perspective. I dislike when we only sing two verses from a song – which may be short enough to begin with. It’s too utilitarian to just sing to accompany the priest moving from point A to point B.

Sometimes there’s a song that is intellectually coherent, if you sing all the verses. But, if you sing just the first two verses, you always miss that “closure” that would come from singing the entire hymn.

For example, entrance song. If there’s four stanzas, why not belt 'em all out, and get people’s juices going? Nothing like a rousing song as a call to worship.​

aside: my pet peeve, something that was not well thought out, in my opinion. For a long time, Sunday Mass now involves a procession with cross, candles, Book, and varying numbers of people.

I think the cross should be the focal point. Rather than sidelining the cross as soon as it is carried into the sanctuary, I think the cross should be held in the center facing the people, until the entrance song is completed. Likewise, that should be the focal point of the closing hymn, too. Instead, at tthe end, the cross is quickly and usually unceremoniously hurried into the precessional location. Watch EWTN Mass and see what I mean.

 

[Elizium23]

From a different perspective. I dislike when we only sing two verses from a song – which may be short enough to begin with. It’s too utilitarian to just sing to accompany the priest moving from point A to point B.

Sometimes there’s a song that is intellectually coherent, if you sing all the verses. But, if you sing just the first two verses, you always miss that “closure” that would come from singing the entire hymn.

There are those who have disagreed with me and said that singing should merely cover a liturgical action and should not be extended past the time it takes to do something at the altar, but I agree with you. I think that the full impact of many hymns is lost if we do not sing them in their entirety, or at least cover the verses that apply most directly to the theme and readings of the day. I think this is a challenge for music directors who should be aware of the length of time it takes for a liturgical action, and choose appropriate hymns. For an ordination Mass which was concelebrated by many priests of the diocese, we sang “Lord, You Give the Great Commission” which had about seven verses attached. This was an excellent choice, topical and appropriate length for a long procession.

Chanted propers should be preferred to the “hymn sandwich” style of liturgical music, as the Church has made her preference known to us. But until this gains traction in more parishes and dioceses, we should make full use of good hymns with solid doctrine which are a source of catechesis and worship in themselves. The people should be exhorted to sing together, as the hymns teach us and bring us together in the liturgy.

 

[kkollwitz]

Revelations says, “four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and…they sung a new song.” When you’re at Mass remember you’re singing along with everyone in heaven, not just the people around you.

 

[odile53]

You don’t have to have any music or sung responses in either the OF or the Tridentine Mass. I actually prefer it that way.

Okay, I’m weird.

 

[ChemicalBean]

This discussion reminds me of a Mass I attended at Westminster Cathedral. It was memorable because it was at once refreshing and frustrating.

All the singing was done by a male choir that processed in (I think). They sang mostly in English (I think), or else any Latin/Greek used was obvious and common. They sang all of the Ordinary, which I expected. They also sang all of the Propers for that day in lieu of any hymns or songs, which I did not expect. A minimum of dialog between presider and congregation was chanted, and no other prayers or scripture were chanted. There was no recessional singing, but perhaps an instrumental postlude to exit by. There were no hymnals, booklets, or worship bulletins distributed.

It was refreshing to experience the mass as a unit that flowed from one part to the next without regard for meter, repetition, or rhyme. It felt whole and complete, and made the “4-song-sandwich” that I was used to seem suddenly stilted and artificial.

It was incredibly frustrating to experience a mass where I could not participate in the music. Not only was I not expected to do so (no worship aids or print music), but it would have been unwelcome (trained choir to do that for me). Singing is the closest thing to engaging one’s whole body in worship if we are not to dance.

 

[Snowwhite16]

Hello again!! I had to find this thread to update you on my previous response. I had mentioned that our parish sounded like a Hillbillie Jamboree because our music director may have had his own ideas. I noticed his change mid summer. Frankly I was waiting for the spoons to be played in the near future to go with the “Gee-Tars” and poorly played “fiddles”…It was utter horror.
As a new RCIA member and because I have attended Mass for over a year now this was shocking to me and I felt like I was in the local baptist/non-denominational churches who have loud bands playing. My thoughts ran thru my mind such as “Clearly this can not be the Catholic Church where on earth is the beautiful music”…I was ready to leave this parish and find another one it was that bad.

Needless to say these past few masses that I have attended the fiddle hillbillie music is no longer squeeking in my ears. My prayers have been answered. Perhaps I was not the only one who didnt like the music directors awful vision and poor taste. Maybe that is why he didnt look so happy today

In closing, there is nothing more soothing they beautiful music of the Renaissance period and Chanting of the Monks…Music of all kinds is important but Music in the Church should be of good taste and purpose.
JMO

 

[Elizium23]

there is nothing more soothing they beautiful music of the Renaissance period

Yes, I like to soothe my ears with songs from the Renaissance period here.

A lusty young smith at his vise stood a filing,
His hammer laid by but his forge still aglow,
When to him a buxom young damsel came smiling
and asked if to work at her forge he would go.

With a jingle, bang jingle, bang jingle, bang jingle,
With a jingle, bang jingle, bang jingle, hi ho!

 

[Sarabande]

Yes, I like to soothe my ears with songs from the Renaissance period here.

Lol! Well, that would definitely NOT soothe my ears.

Funny thing is I have albums by the Baltimore Consort which recorded a lot of the secular, popular music from the Renaissance period… and I enjoy it. “The Art of the Bawdy Song” is definitely not soothing to my ears. Like these:

last.fm/music/The+Baltimore+Consort/The+Art+of+the+Bawdy+Song

But I also think some are rather enjoyable and soothing to my geeky, history-loving ears:

last.fm/music/The+Baltimore+Consort/The+Ladyes+Delight

youtube.com/watch?v=dFFAzMAspAk

What you posted was the popular music of the day and enjoyed outside of liturgy. It was their equivalent of the popular musical styles we hear today, although some of the popular styles we hear today are what we also hear during liturgy. That’s not to say it didn’t happen back then either. People are the same no matter what century. We are always trying to incorporate popular music into liturgy because it’s what we love and what touches us. What I have seen in my reading is that whenever this happens, the Church will almost always do a “reigning in”, requesting the music to be refined for liturgy. For example, they did it with polyphony. They did it with the orchestrated and operatic masses, and I see it happening again. There is always a period where it seems that the reigns are completely loose and it looks like anything goes. Then the Church steps in and tells us to cut it out or refine it.

I might be wrong, but I imagine that Snowhite was talking about sacred renaissance music like these:

youtube.com/watch?v=0_oehc90D1M

youtube.com/watch?v=I_MmCv08PVE

youtube.com/watch?v=5z-Gd_hOSnU&feature=relmfu

To tie this all in with the OP, based on the fact that people through the centuries have always tried to incorporate the music they loved into the liturgy, shows that (whether we like it or not or believe it or not) music is important. Yes, we all know that we don’t need music for the mass, yet for many it can and does help in their focus for prayer and the mass.

 

[Elizium23]

Catholic Music: It’s Time to Stop Making Stuff Up

 

[Sarabande]

Catholic Music: It’s Time to Stop Making Stuff Up

Thanks for posting. This is exactly what I mean when I said that I see this reigning in again for liturgical music in the Church. Almost every generation has gone through what we are going through now. It’s nothing new that people always try to put the style of music that they like into the liturgy and it’s nothing new that the Church continues to tell us to cut it out or refine it. (ie. the beginnings of polyphony did not sound like how we hear sacred polyphony now.) It’s one of the reasons why we have such a vast collection of sacred music through the centuries.

I agree that there should be more emphasis on using chant and incorporating the propers. My former parish does it now. I had a wonderful sacred music mentor, learning how to chant, reading the numes, etc. at that parish. I also agree with what the author describes about how many music ministers choose the music for the liturgy today. But it does seem as if the author believes only chant should be used. Perhaps I’m wrong on that as I didn’t get to read it in depth as I can only do these forums while I’m nursing. The church does allow and encourage other music, such as polyphony. Ok, toddler up from nap and crying. Have to run.

 

[Blacksword]

Could we just get rid of most of the offerings from the St. Louis Jesuits please? More depth, more traditional hymns, and how about hymnals that actually have SATB in them? Some people CAN read music and much is lost when everyone only sings the Soprano/melody line!

 

[MtnDwellar]

[edited]

I love music during Mass, more since the new pianist started. He wails. I wish that the music would stop during and after Communion. After Communion is one of my favorite times for prayer.

 

[pnewton]

I have seen both Fanny Crosby and St. Augustine quoted. Sacred Scripture is replete with commands to sing to the Lord. I do not see how the Church, how Christians, can not want to sing. We sure recognize the need to do everything else the Bible tells us to do.

 

[Cat]

Always singing and dancing??? It is a stereotype and your comment is racist.

I love music during Mass, more since the new pianist started. He wails. I wish that the music would stop during and after Communion. After Communion is one of my favorite times for prayer.

Forgive me for not having the words to describe African American love of music and use of music in their daily lives adequately.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Forgive me for not having the words to describe African American love of music and use of music in their daily lives adequately.

From whom are you asking forgiveness?

The racist quality is not the words used. Racism is the act of giving the members of a race a particular characteristic and is still present in your apology. It is not the wording of your thought. Even if the quality is one that you consider positive, the comment is still racist.

Racism: 1. The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race.