Just looking for clarity!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Seeking987
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Seeking987

Guest
After reading some of the posts in this forum I’m afraid my questions will seem rather insignificant. I almost decided not to ask them! I have no desire to incite heated debates on concepts that I do not understand. I just have some very basic questions about certain Christian beliefs because I need to answer what others have said to me about these things. Basically, I guess I just need simple answers to turn away “doubting Thomases”! I’ll start it up and see how it goes…if I get bombarded I’ll refrain. Again, just looking for support!

Regarding the Trinity, how can you explain this kind of a mystery to someone who scoffs at the idea? What are some good Bible verses to use to support this and why? I might be able to provide some more specific “objections” that have been presented to me, but I’ll just start out with these questions.

Remember I am just a “babe” in understanding and need help. Thank you all in advance for your patience and your answers!
 
After reading some of the posts in this forum I’m afraid my questions will seem rather insignificant. I almost decided not to ask them! I have no desire to incite heated debates on concepts that I do not understand. I just have some very basic questions about certain Christian beliefs because I need to answer what others have said to me about these things. Basically, I guess I just need simple answers to turn away “doubting Thomases”! I’ll start it up and see how it goes…if I get bombarded I’ll refrain. Again, just looking for support!

Regarding the Trinity, how can you explain this kind of a mystery to someone who scoffs at the idea? What are some good Bible verses to use to support this and why? I might be able to provide some more specific “objections” that have been presented to me, but I’ll just start out with these questions.

Remember I am just a “babe” in understanding and need help. Thank you all in advance for your patience and your answers!
I’d recommend some basic Catholic catechetical materials such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the U.S. Catholic Catechism for Adults, and so on. If you need more specific references let us know.
 
*Dear Seeking987,
No question is too small or big when it come to the Catholic Answers Forum. I believe the people here really try to answer questions not only their knowledge, but also with their hearts.
“The Holy Trinity” is one of the most wonderful true mysteries of life. Our “Catechism of The Catholic Church” is one of the greatest references.
Best wishes to you and Welcome to CAF!
God Bless,
Angel Face
 
After reading some of the posts in this forum I’m afraid my questions will seem rather insignificant. I almost decided not to ask them! I have no desire to incite heated debates on concepts that I do not understand. I just have some very basic questions about certain Christian beliefs because I need to answer what others have said to me about these things. Basically, I guess I just need simple answers to turn away “doubting Thomases”! I’ll start it up and see how it goes…if I get bombarded I’ll refrain. Again, just looking for support!

Regarding the Trinity, how can you explain this kind of a mystery to someone who scoffs at the idea? What are some good Bible verses to use to support this and why? I might be able to provide some more specific “objections” that have been presented to me, but I’ll just start out with these questions.

Remember I am just a “babe” in understanding and need help. Thank you all in advance for your patience and your answers!
Catechism of the Catholic Church is free online. See website below. I’ve set it at the page where you can scroll down and read about the Trinity. However you can use the index to search for everything else the Church teaches.

scborromeo.org/mobileccc/index/t.htm
 
Picture God as a lamp. The Father is the bulb, the Son is the light, and the heat is the Holy Spirit. That’s in absolute simplicity, and I think it’s a helpful beginner’s analogy.
 
After reading some of the posts in this forum I’m afraid my questions will seem rather insignificant. I almost decided not to ask them! I have no desire to incite heated debates on concepts that I do not understand. I just have some very basic questions about certain Christian beliefs because I need to answer what others have said to me about these things. Basically, I guess I just need simple answers to turn away “doubting Thomases”! I’ll start it up and see how it goes…if I get bombarded I’ll refrain. Again, just looking for support!

Regarding the Trinity, how can you explain this kind of a mystery to someone who scoffs at the idea? What are some good Bible verses to use to support this and why? I might be able to provide some more specific “objections” that have been presented to me, but I’ll just start out with these questions.

Remember I am just a “babe” in understanding and need help. Thank you all in advance for your patience and your answers!
If one believes (1) in God; (2) that He is perfect; and (3) that in some fundamental way He is an altruistic Lover of Other; then really one must also believe (4) in separate love objects within the one God which are somehow simultaneously “not Himself.”

If God in some fundamental way is an altruistic Lover of Other, then He lacks a love object, and so is incomplete and has a need.

A God with a need is imperfect.

A Trinity places within God a co-eternal love object somehow “not Himself,” thus answering the love object need for all eternity.

But an eternal love relationship between co-eternal Persons within the one God goes nowhere and does nothing unless it achieves something.

That something achieved is the co-eternal Holy Spirit, Who eternally “proceeds out of” the the love between the Father and the Son.

There is your Trinity.
 
Thanks to everyone who is posting on this extremely basic question. I found the link to the Catechism page to be extremely helpful. I would like to take these thoughts to a deeper level and find some answers to doubting questions that have been thrown at me. Maybe I just need to “adjust” some of my associations? 🙂 Just kidding it is good for us to have our beliefs confirmed through exercise!

What about people who say that the Jews are fiercely opposed to the concept of the Trinity, as they will not accept anything other than a strictly “one God” concept and they see the Trinity as making “3” gods? The argument is made that the Scriptures were first delivered to them, Romans 3:1&2, therefore wouldn’t God have made it plainer to them? I really don’t know the best way to answer this. My guess is that it is because the Jews often were faithless in a lot of things, but I don’t think this carries much water in the argument, at least not in the way I presented it!

Then I seem to always get the question “Why did Jesus pray to Himself?” I think this idea may be addressed somewhere on this forum so I’m going to go look. But, if anyone wants to give me some direction I’d be very happy! Thanks again to all who are giving me the help I desperately need!
 
Picture God as a lamp. The Father is the bulb, the Son is the light, and the heat is the Holy Spirit. That’s in absolute simplicity, and I think it’s a helpful beginner’s analogy.
I just love this! I have two step-kids that I’m slowly and “non-threateningly” attempting to bring into Catholicism after being reared non-denominational Christian. This is such a happy and easy-to-understand way to explain the Trinity!

Thanks! 👍
 
What about people who say that the Jews are fiercely opposed to the concept of the Trinity, as they will not accept anything other than a strictly “one God” concept and they see the Trinity as making “3” gods? The argument is made that the Scriptures were first delivered to them, Romans 3:1&2, therefore wouldn’t God have made it plainer to them? I really don’t know the best way to answer this. My guess is that it is because the Jews often were faithless in a lot of things, but I don’t think this carries much water in the argument, at least not in the way I presented it!
We as Christians believe that God appeared before the Jews and spent 3 years “making it plainer to them”, and many of them still didn’t get it. Just as many of the Bereans still didn’t get it after listening to the apostles and searching the scriptures. If we believed that the Jews always understood God best then we’d all be Jews.
Then I seem to always get the question “Why did Jesus pray to Himself?” I think this idea may be addressed somewhere on this forum so I’m going to go look. But, if anyone wants to give me some direction I’d be very happy! Thanks again to all who are giving me the help I desperately need!
He didn’t. He prayed to his Father.
 
Once again, thanks to everyone for helping me understand these things. I do have another puzzler that was posed to me the other night. I think I am in over my head with a lot of these things (I can answer some questions!), that’s why I come here looking for help.

The question, “If a soul is immortal, why does it say in Ezekiel 18 that they die?” I looked this up and found that that is exactly what it says in verse 4 and verse 20. I looked at the word “die” here in the concordance (which I find to be a good help), and it seems to be the word most commonly used for what we understand to be death. Such as Gen 3, “thou shalt surely die”. I was reminded that the verse clearly says the “soul” dies and not the body.

Help!
 
Semitic totality concept, my friend. A soul to a Hebrew was not merely the spirit, but the spirit and the body united. This is why Heaven as many Catholics seem to imagine it is incomplete; we await the final resurrection of the body.

Notice that later on in that same chapter of Ezekiel, it contrasts the “soul” that sins with the “man” who does righteousness.

As for the Jews, one cannot simply say that they had no concept of anything even remotely related to the Trinity, despite some of their protests to the contrary. Even many Jewish traditions recognized the oneness of God, but that that oneness could be complex.

Examples include the ten Sefirot, the so-called diving emanations that act as “intermediaries or graded links between the completely spiritual and unknowable Creator and the material sub-lunar world.” In this view, God and his Sefirot are just like a man and his body: his limbs are many but He is one. Or, to put it another way, think of a tree which has a central trunk and yet many branches. There is unity and there is multiplicity in the tree, in the human body, and in God too." (Almost verbatim from Simon Herman, “Sefirot,” in the Encyclopedia of Hasidism.)

And what about other Jewish mystical concepts of God, such as “the mystery of the three” (Aramaic, raza’ di-telatha), explaining that in the Zohar there are five different expressions relating various aspects of the three-fold nature of God? What would you make of the references to “three heads, three spirits, three forms of revelation, three names, and three shades of interpretation” that relate to the divine nature? The Zohar even asks, “How can these three be one? Are they only one because we call them one? How they are one we can know only by the urging of the Holy Spirit and then even with closed eyes.” (Quoted in Risto Santala, The Messiah in the Old Testament in the Light of the Rabbinical Writings, trans. William Kinnaird).

Or how about when the Rabbis speak much about the Shekhina, the Divine Presence, corresponding also to the motherly, feminine aspects of God? They taught that the Shekhina went into exile with the Jewish people, suffering with “her” children in foreign lands. According to this concept, God cannot be “whole” again until His people return from their physical and spiritual wanderings and the Temple is rebuilt. The rabis based this idea on verses that spoke of God being with his people (corporately or individually) in trheir trouble, distress, and exile (see Mekhilta deRabbi Yishmael, Massekhta dePishka,14).

Rabbi Akiva went as far as saying that according to the Scriptures, when God redeemed His people, he had, as it were, redeemed Himself (ibid.). Some Hasidic Jews took this one step further by combining the Shekhina with the mystical concept of the Sefirot. They believed that “the purpose of the performance of the mitzvot [commandments] is to help the Shekhinah unite with the *Tiferet *[the Sefira of glory or beauty], the male principle. The sins of Israel hinder this union and prevent the ‘reunification of worlds,’ which is a necessary prerequisite for the coming of God’s kingdom. The hasidim, in accordance with this belief, adopted the formula (much deplored by their opponents), ‘For the sake of unification of the Holy One, blessed be He, and His Shekhinah,’ which they recited before the performance of the mitzvot.” (Dabid Goldstein, “Shekinah,” Encyclopedia of Hasidism, 455).

So according to some concepts the Godhead is complex, God in some kind of disunity; His “oneness” was not an easily explainable concept. After all, the Hebrew word for “one,” 'echad, is also used in Zechariah 11:8 to refer to one month.

These are all some things to take into account. There were many Jewish traditions, most of which have not survived, and their own explanaton of God is not as clear cut as many would try to have you believe. The complexness of God is most certainly not a foreign concept to Judaism.

God Bless.
 
Expounding on the Trinity is difficult in a format such as this. It has, after all, been expounded by church Father, in Councils and in philosophical treatises.

Rather than trying to make do with imperfect analogies and metaphors, I would recommend something which is both easy to read, not too abstruse, and yet a good beginning–such as Theology for Beginners, by Frank J. Sheed.
 
Thanks again to everyone for helping out!

JimG - I know what you mean, and that’s kind of my problem, I have difficulty explaining these things sometimes (most times?!). My thought for posting in a forum like this was to help me with the expression of the ideas. I read about what is written, but then have a hard time relaying that when questioned. I thought coming to a place like this everyone could relate the ideas to me in their own terms, that is as they understand it, and that would help me out.

Nathan - I appreciate all your work in putting that post together! Especially the perspective of the Jews concerning the Trinity, or “complexity” of God, as they put it. But again, as to the soul dying, your argument (Jewish view of “soul”) would seem to imply that the immortal soul is only a NT concept. I have trouble with that, but I am pretty sure you could elaborate to help me out!

I am definitely loving this!!!
 
  1. It is perhaps true that “soul” and “spirit” are used interchangeably today, and may have been used thusly in NT Greek (cf. Luke 1:46-7 ?!?]), but that clearly was not the case in the OT. Note the variation in the Hebrew words: “spirit” is ruach, and “soul” is nephesh.
2.The “soul” as defined here is the combination of the body and spirit, which creates the unified whole of a person (or an animal – cf. Gen. 1:21).
  1. “The Hebrew did not divide and assign human activities. Any act was the whole nephesh in action, hence, the whole person.” This matches as well with the NT triple-combo of psyche (soul), soma (body), and pneuma (spirit) as the words are used by the writers of the NT (though the Greeks seem to have overlapped the words in usage somewhat, and some dictionaries and resources, in defining the words, uses them to define each other – perhaps reflecting our own modern confusion of the terms.
  2. Eccl. 12:7, “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
  3. Is. 14:9-11 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
    Ezek. 32:31 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
    These verses speak of the dead as being roused to greet a newcomer, and speaking from Sheol. This is not what one would call an active retirement, of course, but it is clearly a conscious retirement, or at the least, a state in which consciousness is a possibility.
6.Other relevant data from the OT is that which tells us of the illegal practice of necromancy (communication with the dead). The OT explicitly forbids this practice (Lev. 19:31//Deut. 18:10; cf. 2 Kings 21:6, 23:24) but that it is indeed practiced clearly suggests a belief in the ability to contact and speak to the dead in the first place. The most complete account, 1 Sam. 28, shows us that Saul clearly expected Samuel to be able to be contacted and therefore conscious.

Hope this helps. I would be happy to go over other passages as well, such as the Psalms that speak of our thoughts perishing, etc. However, the above should adequately answer your question for now. God Bless you.
 
After reading some of the posts in this forum I’m afraid my questions will seem rather insignificant. I almost decided not to ask them! I have no desire to incite heated debates on concepts that I do not understand. I just have some very basic questions about certain Christian beliefs because I need to answer what others have said to me about these things. Basically, I guess I just need simple answers to turn away “doubting Thomases”! I’ll start it up and see how it goes…if I get bombarded I’ll refrain. Again, just looking for support!

Regarding the Trinity, how can you explain this kind of a mystery to someone who scoffs at the idea? What are some good Bible verses to use to support this and why? I might be able to provide some more specific “objections” that have been presented to me, but I’ll just start out with these questions.

Remember I am just a “babe” in understanding and need help. Thank you all in advance for your patience and your answers!
I don’t know of any religion that believes in the Trinity other than christians. I guess I need help understanding what “other” religion does.😉
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top