Just need to get something off my chest about Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter Nonsmoker
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

Nonsmoker

Guest
There are many misconceptions of Mary, one of them is that Mary was never sinless, and that she was in-fact not perfect. I can perhaps clear this one up a bit:

For Catholics:
Why would God want to put his son into something spiritually dirty (which in-fact is worse than physical filth)? We go to confession before we receive Jesus so that we might be clean for him to enter our body. No Catholic with good morals would ever throw the Jesus into the garbage. Mary is no different, except that it is quite literal that baby Jesus was inside her. So, for God to pick her, means that she must be clean and pure. Mary is indeed pure and sinless, but, we must not exclude the fact that she was not exempt from experiencing temptation.

For Non-Catholics:
***Mary is sinless and pure. I wish I could just say this, you nod, and move on to believe this, but this is 99.99% of the time not the case. If you believe that Mary was the new eve, this will be easy to explain, I might even be able to explain it in a sentence, but to believe she was the new eve is to believe she is sinless, which most denominations will attack. Mary is sinless because Jesus was sinless, no one was born without sin before this time since Adam and Eve, because to be sinless is to be ‘with-out sin’. Adam and Eve had children after they fell, which is why they were born with sin, giving evil a foot-hold in Cabal, which is why he killed his brother, from the same sin his parents committed, pride. That is why we have original sin, because the sins of the father communicate to the children, and so on. If Mary had sin, then Jesus had sin, and if you believe that Jesus was sinless, it would be a completely illogical statement. ***

Questions you may have:
But Joseph had sin, how did that not communicate to Jesus?
*Because, Mary and Joseph were not one in the sense of sex, where part of the male is entering into the female making a baby, this is how the sin is actually communicated if a sinful man had sex with a sinless woman and they had a baby. Think of it as a holy friendship:). *

Feel free to ask questions or comment below:thumbsup:
 
I do have a biblical verse in mind, but, it is far too late in the evening to delve into scripture, perhaps tomorrow I can find it. But as of right now, all I can say is that it’s logic. She is human, all humans are tempted, I mean look at Jesus, that’s what the agony in the garden was, Satan was tempting Jesus to run and save himself.
 
Given the revelation we have from scripture and common sense, for anyone calling themselves a Christian to say Mary was anything but pure (if not sinless) is absolutely an insult to Jesus and thus God. If a protestant chooses to ignore Mary, that’s their loss, but they must concede some unavoidable truths about Mary (such as that she was the purest women who has ever lived and the spouse of the Holy Spirit, which is purity itself) if they want to call themselves Jesus lovers. Love for Jesus must come before hatred of Catholics/a desire to be different from Catholics.

“Lovers of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God (Theotokos) ever ceased to be a virgin.” St. Basil the Great, Homily In Sanctum Christi generationem, 5 (ante A.D. 379).
 
Mary was kept from all sin from birth by the grace of God. This was God’s divine plan. It is clear to me that she was never tempted to sin. Mary was obedient to God and conquered evil. She was pure and holy and not of the world. Mary nurtured Jesus and knew He was the Son of God. This is what I have been taught.
 
Do you really believe that an all-powerful God can be tainted by sin?
 
Is it necessarily true to say that Mary was conceived without sin so that Christ would not inherit her original sin? Afterl, God could certainly have seen to it that it was just Jesus, rather than Mary who was blessed with an immaculate conception. Is there any specific teaching as to why God chose to bless her with such a gift?
 
The teaching of the Fathers such as Athanasius the Great and Maximos the Confessor is that Jesus took the very same flesh that we have. That if he did not take the same flesh we have, we would not have been saved. In Scripture we always see that Jesus is the Light, and evil and sin and death is the darkness. Darkness cannot conquer light, thus it is inconceivable to even think that if Mary had any sin, it would taint Christ. Christ, being God, is the source of all holiness, of all goodness, of all grace. Everything he touched is healed! Darkness is defeated, thus when he took on our own wounded human nature, it is perfected by contact with Him.
 
acadiANNA said:
Mary was kept from all sin from birth by the grace of God. This was God’s divine plan. It is clear to me that she was never tempted to sin. Mary was obedient to God and conquered evil. She was pure and holy and not of the world. Mary nurtured Jesus and knew He was the Son of God. This is what I have been taught.
Click to expand...
No, your wrong. If this was the case, if she were “kept from sin” she would not be human at all, but an angel (or perhaps an automaton). Free will is an absolute state of humanity, and it applies to every one. Mary was born immaculate, but so were Adam and Eve. If they had the possibility of falling, so did she.

A lot of what I read on this thread really does worry me. I can almost see people start invoking the old heresies all over again, but with regards to Mary.
 
Hi,
I am interested to see that you write. “We go to confession before we receive JESUS”. I believe this and sometimes refrain from going to Communion because I feel that I am unworthy without going to Confession first.
The rest of the Congregation keep on urging me to go regardless and believe that I am old fashioned.
Your thoughts on Mary are interesting. Thank you.
www.catholicprayergroup.net
.
 
Weissystems said:
Hi,
I am interested to see that you write. “We go to confession before we receive JESUS”. I believe this and sometimes refrain from going to Communion because I feel that I am unworthy without going to Confession first.
The rest of the Congregation keep on urging me to go regardless and believe that I am old fashioned.
Your thoughts on Mary are interesting. Thank you.
www.catholicprayergroup.net
.
Click to expand...
But that has nothing to do why Mary is without sin. Confession before Communion is for our own sakes, not Christ’s. It is not as if Christ will be stained with our sins when we commune with Him. Rather, it is us who is rebellious against God who will suffer in the communion if we are not prepared sufficiently.
 
ConstantineTG said:
But that has nothing to do why Mary is without sin.
Click to expand...
It does theologically speaking, that a communion with Jesus requires sinlessness. The sacramental sign that we must be in a state of grace to receive Communion points to that. Where do you stand on the position of Mary’s Immaculate Conception? Believe? Don’t believe? Unsure? Heresy? Not heresy?
 
Nonsmoker said:
I do have a biblical verse in mind, but, it is far too late in the evening to delve into scripture, perhaps tomorrow I can find it. But as of right now, all I can say is that it’s logic. She is human, all humans are tempted, I mean look at Jesus, that’s what the agony in the garden was, Satan was tempting Jesus to run and save himself.
Click to expand...
When you get time, please share the verse.
 
MarcoPolo said:
It does theologically speaking, that a communion with Jesus requires sinlessness. The sacramental sign that we must be in a state of grace to receive Communion points to that. Where do you stand on the position of Mary’s Immaculate Conception? Believe? Don’t believe? Unsure? Heresy? Not heresy?
Click to expand...
The Orthodox believe the Theotokos to be pure, blameless and immaculate. But we do not share the Augustinian belief on Original Sin. Also we have trouble thinking of the Theotokos as someone who is not like any of us. In Orthodox belief, the Theotokos is not the great exception, she is the great example! She is who we all should become. But if by her being immaculately conceived she is already different from the rest of us, then it does not make any sense.

But again I reiterate, the “state of grace” for receiving Communion has nothing to do with Mary receiving Christ in her womb. The whole reason why we must repent to receive Christ is different and has no connection as to why the Theotokos is blameless.
 
I have to admit that I still don’t understand why Mary had to be sinless. I accept that she was, but I do not understand why.

If every child inherits sin from his or her parents, why didn’t Mary? She was immaculately concieved. But if that’s why, why couldn’t Mary have been sinful and Jesus have been immaculately concieved? I don’t get it.

I don’t see how it would have adversely affected Jesus if his mother had been sinful, either. He was surrounded by sin and sinners every day of his life. If God couldn’t bear to give his son to a sinful woman, why would he give him to an entire sinful world?

Maybe someone can explain this to me? :o
 
ConstantineTG said:
In Orthodox belief, the Theotokos is not the great exception, she is the great example! She is who we all should become. But if by her being immaculately conceived she is already different from the rest of us, then it does not make any sense.
Click to expand...
I have heard that Mary is the great example from Catholic theologians as well, so you may be happy to know that is not exclusively Orthodox thought.

I’m curious, since Orthodox baptize infants, does that baptism remit anything resembling original sin? i.e. like the Ancestral Sin. What is the purpose of baptizing infants?
 
Kamaduck said:
I have to admit that I still don’t understand why Mary had to be sinless. I accept that she was, but I do not understand why.
Click to expand...
Have you delved into the typology of Mary as the New Eve? Mary, as the superior type of Eve, supersedes Eve, who herself was created without Original Sin. It points us to Christ as the new Adam and reveals how the Passion event of is a reversal, an undoing, of the Fall.

Also, the Church, in the document Ineffabilis Deus declaring her Immaculate Conception, describes the gift as “fitting,” not quite using the language that she “had to be” sinless." For example:*And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness…
…

For it was certainly not fitting that this vessel of election should be wounded by the common injuries, since she, differing so much from the others, had only nature in common with them, not sin. In fact, it was quite fitting that, as the Only-Begotten has a Father in heaven, whom the Seraphim extol as thrice holy, so he should have a Mother on earth who would never be without the splendor of holiness.*
 
MarcoPolo said:
Have you delved into the typology of Mary as the New Eve? Mary, as the superior type of Eve, supersedes Eve, who herself was created without Original Sin. It points us to Christ as the new Adam and reveals how the Passion event of is a reversal, an undoing, of the Fall.

Also, the Church, in the document Ineffabilis Deus declaring her Immaculate Conception, describes the gift as “fitting,” not quite using the language that she “had to be” sinless." For example:And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness…
…

For it was certainly not fitting that this vessel of election should be wounded by the common injuries, since she, differing so much from the others, had only nature in common with them, not sin. In fact, it was quite fitting that, as the Only-Begotten has a Father in heaven, whom the Seraphim extol as thrice holy, so he should have a Mother on earth who would never be without the splendor of holiness.
Click to expand...
I have not, but that does make more sense. I’ll look into it, thanks. 🙂

And thanks for the quote. The person who taught me said she “had to be”, and I wasn’t sure why. :o
 
“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (St. Ambrose, Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).

“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (St. Augustine, Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (St. Ephraim, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (St. Didymus the Blind, The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top