JUST reasons, and children

[Alistair_DB]

Dear “3 is NEVER EVER ENOUGH” person,

Has it ever occured to you that a couple may be selfles, child loving, God fearing, devout Catholic parents and simply not be able to HANDLE more children? Some people are simply NOT MENTALLY CAPABLE of running after more than that. Like I’ve told before, my wife and i LOVE kids, before we got married, we assumed we’d have a dozen, and it’d be great. But after 3, who are rather spaced even, we’re at the ends of our ropes. can we AFFORD more children? probably. Do we WANT more children? yes and no. In theory we would, but in practice, no, and that does NOT make us selfish people who reject God’s blessings. It makes us responsibvle parents who know we do not emotionally have the stability to look after another one right now. We’ve had too many nervous breakdowns, anxiety attacks and panic situations already, thank you.

We’re young, and perhaps when our children are older we will think about more, but right now, no… WE’re not Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar; we simply CAN’T take care of that many. Maybe YOU can, I’m sure lots of people can, but not everyne can

 

[Alistair_DB]

Nobody here has said that a family with 2 children is selfish. We ARE saying, as long as the couple is following the teachings of the Church and are discerning their family size routinely with generosity in mind, then that’s their family size. YOU are the one putting words in people’s mouths.

“if you believe children are truly a BLESSING from God, which is what the Bible says and the church teaches, it really wouldn’t make sense to say 2-3 is just enough.”

This poster from page one sure sounds like she’s insinuating that.

 

[Jennifer_J]

“if you believe children are truly a BLESSING from God, which is what the Bible says and the church teaches, it really wouldn’t make sense to say 2-3 is just enough.”

This poster from page one sure sounds like she’s insinuating that.

We are called to generosity and discernment. It is a mistake to announce that 2 or 3 is ‘enough’ without constant prayer and discernment of the matter of family size. Circumstances change, finances can improve, health can improve, children grow up…these things are not necessarily static. It is certainly MORE than possible to be generous and open to life with 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on children. Again, prayer and discernment, not concrete statements.

 

[emmar]

I think people can argue all day about what are just reasons and what aren’t. I think the important thing is that each couple make the decisions that are the best for the couple and the existing children, doing what needs to be done. I am greatly saddened that in the Catholic church there are so many people coming at you all the time, telling you, you are bad for avoiding or not using NFP if it doesn’t work; but they don’t walk in your shoes everyday. I know Christians who have bigger hearts and help more, than the Catholics who sit around and are judgemental. I completely understand why NFP is used so infrequently, since when it fails and a crisis pregnancies occur you are expected to be happy and just make the best of it. I think some couples are only meant to have one child and then be done, and I hope and pray that Catholics will stop beating up those who have reached their limit of children. It’s great if you can handle 6 kids and feed them too! You’ve been given a gift if you can do that. However this is not the reality for every couple. I know after my whole experience with the failure of NFP, response of the Church, and of other Catholics; it has totally transformed the way I see this issue. Some things work for some and others they don’t. The best we can do is pray and encourage each other and stop beating each other up or being judgmental…Now that would go a long way!

 

[kristacecilia]

I think people can argue all day about what are just reasons and what aren’t. I think the important thing is that each couple make the decisions that are the best for the couple and the existing children, doing what needs to be done. I am greatly saddened that in the Catholic church there are so many people coming at you all the time, telling you, you are bad for avoiding or not using NFP if it doesn’t work; but they don’t walk in your shoes everyday. I know Christians who have bigger hearts and help more, than the Catholics who sit around and are judgemental. I completely understand why NFP is used so infrequently, since when it fails and a crisis pregnancies occur you are expected to be happy and just make the best of it. I think some couples are only meant to have one child and then be done, and I hope and pray that Catholics will stop beating up those who have reached their limit of children. It’s great if you can handle 6 kids and feed them too! You’ve been given a gift if you can do that. However this is not the reality for every couple. I know after my whole experience with the failure of NFP, response of the Church, and of other Catholics; it has totally transformed the way I see this issue. Some things work for some and others they don’t. The best we can do is pray and encourage each other and stop beating each other up or being judgmental…Now that would go a long way!

1. This is a thread discussing just reasons. So we are discussing just reasons.
2. It is NEVER charitable to encourage people to live their lives contrary to the teaching of Christ’s church. That is not “Christian”. That is just helping someone along the path of hell. I am sorry if you feel you have been ‘beaten up’ or ‘judged’ but maybe the people who were doing that to you were just trying to encourage you along the path of heaven, which is a VERY difficult, narrow path.

 

[BingoBoy]

“if you believe children are truly a BLESSING from God, which is what the Bible says and the church teaches, it really wouldn’t make sense to say 2-3 is just enough.”

This poster from page one sure sounds like she’s insinuating that.

Exactly!

 

[emmar]

Agreed was just trying to emphasize that there are many types of just reasons. What is a reason for one couple may not be for another.

 

[BingoBoy]

I think people can argue all day about what are just reasons and what aren’t. I think the important thing is that each couple make the decisions that are the best for the couple and the existing children, doing what needs to be done. I am greatly saddened that in the Catholic church there are so many people coming at you all the time, telling you, you are bad for avoiding or not using NFP if it doesn’t work; but they don’t walk in your shoes everyday. I know Christians who have bigger hearts and help more, than the Catholics who sit around and are judgemental. I completely understand why NFP is used so infrequently, since when it fails and a crisis pregnancies occur you are expected to be happy and just make the best of it. I think some couples are only meant to have one child and then be done, and I hope and pray that Catholics will stop beating up those who have reached their limit of children. It’s great if you can handle 6 kids and feed them too! You’ve been given a gift if you can do that. However this is not the reality for every couple. I know after my whole experience with the failure of NFP, response of the Church, and of other Catholics; it has totally transformed the way I see this issue. Some things work for some and others they don’t. The best we can do is pray and encourage each other and stop beating each other up or being judgmental…Now that would go a long way!

Good post

 

[RedSoxWife]

:banghead:

You misunderstand completely and are thus putting words in my mouth. This is very frustrating when people can’t even grasp the message I’m trying to get across.

I wasn’t calling anyone here selfish. Go back and reread my statement.

I was pointing out that people such as yourselves consider women selfish if they only have 2 kids. A woman can be a hard worker and do great things for the community with her God given gifts… but if she only has 2 kids, she wold be deemed “selfish” by you people.

Deemed selfish by “you people.” Yup. Because you know me so well BingoBoy. You obviously know my every thought.

I absolutely wouldn’t consider a woman selfish because I could never know the inner workings of her life. If she went into detail and said: “We’re not going to have any more children because hubby wants to save up for a new sports car” I’d think that was in fact a selfish reason. But we should always try to separate the sinner from the sin, even when it’s difficult. And again, I’ve had way too many friends struggle with infertility, a cross I pray we aren’t about to meet after all the medical mishaps of the last year, to assume anything about anybody with a small or large family.

And sorry for the misquote. You’re right. You didn’t say selfish. You said “narrow minded.” That’s much, much nicer.

 

[Debora123]

Deemed selfish by “you people.” Yup. Because you know me so well BingoBoy. You obviously know my every thought.

Some of the things some of you say makes it come across like you’d think it’d be selfish for a women to not be able to handle more than 2 kids while wanting to keep working outside the home.

 

[gardenswithkids]

:banghead:

You misunderstand completely and are thus putting words in my mouth. This is very frustrating when people can’t even grasp the message I’m trying to get across.

I wasn’t calling anyone here selfish. Go back and reread my statement.

I was pointing out that people such as yourselves consider women selfish if they only have 2 kids. A woman can be a hard worker and do great things for the community with her God given gifts… but if she only has 2 kids, she wold be deemed “selfish” by you people.

Mind if I bang my head right back at you? :banghead:

According to you, I am calling my own saintly mother selfish. (May she rest in peace and forgive you.) I am from a small family and my mother worked. I know several wonderful women who have small families. Some work; some don’t. I do not judge people for having 0,1,2,or 3 children. In fact, if you don’t say anything otherwise, I will simply assume that you or any other Catholic with 0-3 children follow the Church teachings regarding this matter.

The majority of us are not calling you or anyone else (including my dearly departed mother) selfish. We’re echoing the same Catechism passage which mentions the phrase “just reasons” which in the very next sentence tells married Catholics to check our motives for “selfishness” when avoid pregnancy. See CCC 2368 “…For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generousity appropriate to responsible parenthood….”

BTW, the Catechism doesn’t let us off the hook after any specific number. Those of us with large families still need to check ourselves for selfishness after 4,5,6,7,8 + children. I don’t know about you, but eight kids later and I still struggle with selfishness. It just looks a little different now because I’m confronted by those smiling little faces with whom I don’t want to share my chocolate. (hee-hee, my saintly mother kept a chocolate stash too. I just now realized–thanks to you–that maybe she was a little selfish after all. I guess I am calling my mom selfish–but only in regards to chocolate.)

 

[BingoBoy]

Deemed selfish by “you people.” Yup. Because you know me so well BingoBoy. You obviously know my every thought.

Some of you sure made it sound that way given your judgements about the woman in the example I gave.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Mind if I bang my head right back at you? :banghead:

According to you, I am calling my own saintly mother selfish. (May she rest in peace and forgive you.) I am from a small family and my mother worked. I know several wonderful women who have small families. Some work; some don’t. I do not judge people for having 0,1,2,or 3 children. In fact, if you don’t say anything otherwise, I will simply assume that you or any other Catholic with 0-3 children follow the Church teachings regarding this matter.

The majority of us are not calling you or anyone else (including my dearly departed mother) selfish. We’re echoing the same Catechism passage which mentions the phrase “just reasons” which in the very next sentence tells married Catholics to check our motives for “selfishness” when avoid pregnancy. See CCC 2368 “…For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generousity appropriate to responsible parenthood….”

BTW, the Catechism doesn’t let us off the hook after any specific number. Those of us with large families still need to check ourselves for selfishness after 4,5,6,7,8 + children. I don’t know about you, but eight kids later and I still struggle with selfishness. It just looks a little different now because I’m confronted by those smiling little faces with whom I don’t want to share my chocolate. (hee-hee, my saintly mother kept a chocolate stash too. I just now realized–thanks to you–that maybe she was a little selfish after all. I guess I am calling my mom selfish–but only in regards to chocolate.)

 

[RedSoxWife]

Some of you sure made it sound that way given your judgements about the woman in the example I gave.

“Some of you…”
“You people…”

Yup… we’re all just the same. Find one time where I said anything that even vaguely sounds like that. One.

And I’m with Gardens. My mom had one child. Me. As far as I know I have a couple of siblings in heaven (miscarriage). Most of my own friends don’t have kids yet. But yeah. We all sit around and judge everyone else all day. It’s just so much fun passing the time “judging” when I’m not raising my kids and supporting the entire family with my small businesses while my DH is in school full time.

 

[BingoBoy]

When does a plant get too much rain or the earth too much sun?

Children are a blessing to parents just as rain and sun are for the earth.in ALL honesty, if you believe children are truly a BLESSING from God, which is what the Bible says and the church teaches, it really wouldn’t make sense to say 2-3 is just enough.

If people truly collaborated with God we’d have more numerous families than small families and that’s a Biblical fact!

God is the same, blessings are the same. Our society has become so twisted that we see children as burdens. Having a snazzy career might bring happiness, but, having children brings joy. We are to be faithful in everything, that includes generosity of spirit in welcoming God’s blessings.

However, I object to the reasoning you used. We’re not just called to be happy–we’re called to be holy. These are matters to be prayed over and not decided simply by what we think would make us “happiest.” God wants us to be happy, and I’m not saying that our happiness doesn’t matter to Him–but we need to ask what God wants rather than what would make us happy.

…but that we only avoid if we truly have prayerfully discerned we have serious/just/grave reasons to do so, not because we have always wanted 2-3 kids and are climbing the corporate ladder, or are being a SAH parent of 3, or simply don’t want to deal with more than 3 kids.

Seems that most Christians have trouble understanding the peace that comes from accepting children lovingly, having kids early in marriage, having kids before we have enough money, being open to children when we are tired of having kids, embracing all of the teachings of the Church on marriage and not fretting that too many will wreck our happy life.

No one here has said that a couple needs to have as many children as physically possible, just that couples need to be open to life and that having more than 1.8 children is not going to ruin a couple’s life.

…A few quotes that insinuate that people who don’t have more than 2-3 kids (unless they absolutely can’t) are selfish.

 

[kristacecilia]

Some of you sure made it sound that way given your judgements about the woman in the example I gave.

I would really, really love to see quotes from people on this thread judging the woman in the example you gave.

 

[BingoBoy]

Yup… we’re all just the same. Find one time where I said anything that even vaguely sounds like that. One.

Here you make it sound like not having more children because a woman can’t handle more kids AND keep her career at the same time while still being happy/at peace, isn’t really legitimate:

We’re called to embrace our vocations. And our vocation, our calling from God, is literally who we are called to serve in this life. Usually, our vocations aren’t easy, because the path to holiness isn’t supposed to be easy. If it were it wouldn’t be a “narrow gate.” For many, although certainly not all, the path that they are called to is marriage. And for many of those women, the vocation of marriage will involve children (for some it involves a job, for some it doesn’t). There are many reasons to avoid, but we’re also called to be generous.

Very few of us grow closer to God through happy, easy times. It’s often through suffering, exhaustion and struggle that God gives us the grace necessary to move closer to him.

So I guess it all depends on your definition of “detrimental.” If by detrimental you mean, life may not be easy, we may not sleep all night, and we may not have a four car garage… then yeah… I guess being open to life can be “detrimental.” But if you plan to serve God, who has called all of us to serve on the particular path that he has in mind, then this life probably isn’t going to be as full of “pleasure” as we might like to imagine. Sometimes the things that the world sees as “detrimental” are the things that shape us for holiness in the next life. And holiness in the next life is what we all should strive for. The only tragedy in this life is not to become a saint.

But I have a feeling that’s not what you wanted to hear on this thread. Right?

You make it sound like she’s supposed to be stressed out and have hardships in life by having more kids than she’s comfortable with.

 

[BingoBoy]

I would really, really love to see quotes from people on this thread judging the woman in the example you gave.

See my post #43

 

[RedSoxWife]

…A few quotes that insinuate that people who don’t have more than 2-3 kids (unless they absolutely can’t) are selfish.

Did I ask for quotes from other people? Nope.

And I don’t think that saying that children are a blessing, which is basically what every one of those quotes say, implies a judgement on the individual. Our culture does have a twisted view of life and value. That’s why so many children are killed in the womb.

So would you have said Mother Teresa was “judging” people when she asked how can one have too many children? It’s like saying there are too many flowers. (to paraphrase since I didn’t google the quote. Speaking the truth doesn’t mean we’re saying people are selfish (that’s a one on one conversation that we’ll each have to have with God…).

The soul is more important than the body. More important than any immediate happiness. We’re supposed to be helping one another. And in a world that doesn’t value human life, especially vulnerable human life, sometimes reminder is helpful.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I would really, really love to see quotes from people on this thread judging the woman in the example you gave.

I’ve read post #53 and I’d *still *love to see some examples too.