Just talked with the Mormons!

[Dempsey1919]

I’ve just talked with the Mormons for over an hour. They were nice people but they couldn’t answer any of my questions. The bulk of their message consisted in getting me to accept the Book of Mormon.

The one thing I was uncertain about was that they quoted a lot of Scripture to support their beliefs. Do they manipulate Scripture to support their doctrines? One thing is that they claimed Jesus did not drink wine; he drank Grape Juice! They said the Hebrew language and the Bible supported this!

They also said that God was a physical man with a body. In response to this, I asked them if God the Father had a Father but they couldn’t answer this. My reasoning is that if God was a man, then he must have had a Father, and a Grandfather.

They kept talking about “spirit children” but I really didn’t have a clue about this. I asked them who was the First Cause; who was the Creator who has no beginning and no end but they couldn’t answer this. I asked them who or what came before the Council of the Gods, but they couldn’t answer this either.

They also denied that black people were denied the Priesthood before the 1970’s and stated that Black people were cursed (which is Mormon doctrine, I believe).

To be honest, I wish I could’ve been more effective in countering their claims. They didn’t cause me to question my beliefs mainly because they couldn’t provide answers to any of my questions. They wanted me to accept the Book of Mormon, and that I would receive a testimony by the Spirit. I told them that I wouldn’t let emotions cause me to change beliefs; I wanted objective truth! They gave me a Book of Mormon anyway and I said I’d read it.

 

[FCEGM]

I’ve just talked with the Mormons for over an hour. They were nice people but they couldn’t answer any of my questions. The bulk of their message consisted in getting me to accept the Book of Mormon.

The one thing I was uncertain about was that they quoted a lot of Scripture to support their beliefs. Do they manipulate Scripture to support their doctrines.

Is the Pope Catholic?

It sounds like you did a very good job in your first encounter. Since you did accept a copy of the Book of Mormon, you may see them again.

 

[RebeccaJ]

the grape juice thing is pretty funny, but it is a common belief among mormons.

before pasteurization and refrigeration “grape juice” didn’t exist, both of which are modern inventions.

The juice squeezed from a grape naturally ferments, it is unavoidable without pasteurization. “Grape juice” was absolutely impossible to make prior to these inventions. It is like saying Jesus drove a Honda.

 

[Dempsey1919]

I also asked them about the lack of evidence to support Book of Mormon history. They replied by saying that there was a lot of evidence, but failed to provide any.

I also told them about the Catholic understanding of Revelation, about how Christ himself, as the Word of God, was the fullness of Revelation. I told them that the two fonts of Revelation were Scripture and Tradition. I did this to show how Catholic beliefs cannot be disproved by Scripture alone.

They claimed that there was confusion after the death of the last Apostles. I countered by saying that the Apostles left successors on earth and that it was their job to safeguard the Sacred Deposit of Faith, not add or subtract from it. I asked them why Christ would allow his followers to become confused? They answered this by saying that his followers later rejected him.

The best part was when I quoted the beginning of the Gospel of John to prove the Trinity. They couldn’t refute my reasoning, or the Gospel itself, since they already agreed that it was the Word of God without error.

 

[zerinus]

I also asked them about the lack of evidence to support Book of Mormon history. They replied by saying that there was a lot of evidence, but failed to provide any.

I also told them about the Catholic understanding of Revelation, about how Christ himself, as the Word of God, was the fullness of Revelation. I told them that the two fonts of Revelation were Scripture and Tradition. I did this to show how Catholic beliefs cannot be disproved by Scripture alone.

They claimed that there was confusion after the death of the last Apostles. I countered by saying that the Apostles left successors on earth and that it was their job to safeguard the Sacred Deposit of Faith, not add or subtract from it. I asked them why Christ would allow his followers to become confused? They answered this by saying that his followers later rejected him.

The best part was when I quoted the beginning of the Gospel of John to prove the Trinity. They couldn’t refute my reasoning, or the Gospel itself, since they already agreed that it was the Word of God without error.

The conversations you have had with the missionaries appears to me to have been very confused. I don’t know whether that was your fault or theirs, or both. If you have specific questions about Mormonism, I can try to answer; but I cannot comment on the conversations you had with them, of which I was not a part.

zerinus

 

[MrS]

Is the Pope Catholic?

It sounds like you did a very good job in your first encounter. Since you did accept a copy of the Book of Mormon, you may see them again.

Difference between the Bible and the BofM??

They might have copies of theirs autographed by the author.

.

 

[FCEGM]

Difference between the Bible and the BofM??

They might have copies of theirs autographed by the author.

.

 

[Donna_Mc]

Yes, since you took the book they may may back! There
are some books written about Mormons which I believe you
can get on Catholic.com by Isiah Bennett. I think the title is
“When Mormons Call”.

I have a Mormon friend who told me about the grape juice thing
too. Jesus changed water into wine, not grape juice!

Most of the Mormons I have met through the years have
been very nice with the exception of a few who would say
horrible things about the Catholic church. I pray for
their conversions!

 

[AMDGtoo]

Most of the Mormons I have met through the years have
been very nice with the exception of a few who would say
horrible things about the Catholic church.

Yes, a majority of the Mormons and the Mormons Missionaries that I have have been very nice and polite. (A sterling Public Relations Advertisement.) However there have been a few that were downright nasty (a different kind of PR moment?) and just about all have a deep seated hatred of the Catholic Church (even though one of their Articles of Faith claims that they respect all religions.

And yes, they twist scripture a lot and have their own ideas of what certain words mean.

 

[valient_Lucy]

The juice squeezed from a grape naturally ferments, it is unavoidable without pasteurization. “Grape juice” was absolutely impossible to make prior to these inventions. It is like saying Jesus drove a Honda.

I always wondered why grape juice didn’t exist until fairly recently! Thanks for the info.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The conversations you have had with the missionaries appears to me to have been very confused. I don’t know whether that was your fault or theirs, or both. If you have specific questions about Mormonism, I can try to answer; but I cannot comment on the conversations you had with them, of which I was not a part.

zerinus

Do Mormons think Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[zerinus]

Do Mormons think Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

I quit answering your questions a long time ago. My post was addressed to the OP, not you.

zerinus

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I quit answering your questions a long time ago. My post was addressed to the OP, not you.

zerinus

Oh ok. Would the OP be interested in seeing some information on Joseph Smith and some of his prophesies? I’d be more than happy to share that information with you.

I have evidence of one seemingly true revelation of Joseph Smith, but I have a couple prophesies that seem to be false that Mormons have great difficulities explaining.

Anyone wants them posted let me know.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[tommiatkins]

The one thing I was uncertain about was that they quoted a lot of Scripture to support their beliefs. Do they manipulate Scripture to support their doctrines? .

Rolls on floor laughing!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I quit answering your questions a long time ago. My post was addressed to the OP, not you.

zerinus

I just wanted an explanation of the following.

The Bible, in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, tells us how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one.

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain.

Deu 18:21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.

According to the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-5, Joseph Smith prophesied a temple, to be known as the city of the New Jerusalem, would be built in the Western boundaries of the state of Missouri. I have bolded parts of this passage, below, for emphasis.

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

While it’s my understanding, from Mormons, that reason that temple has not been built yet is, that generation has not yet passed, because some had translated and became mortal, over 160 years ago. I’ve also been told that this was a commandment and not a prophesy, but as you can see by the part I have emphasized above, it says it’s the word of the Lord as spoken by the mouth of His prophets. Please note it says that temple will be dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith. We know that Joseph Smith didn’t translate, but died by gunshot on June 27, 1844.

According the the Doctrines and Covenants, if you follow the link you can see that these are revelations given by Jospeh Smith.

I have asked several Mormons, but have gotten conflicting responses. It appears to be a false prophesy. Can you please explain how it’s not?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[scipio337]

I just wanted an explanation of the following.

The Bible, in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, tells us how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one.

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain.

Deu 18:21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.

According to the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-5, Joseph Smith prophesied a temple, to be known as the city of the New Jerusalem, would be built in the Western boundaries of the state of Missouri. I have bolded parts of this passage, below, for emphasis.

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

While it’s my understanding, from Mormons, that reason that temple has not been built yet is, that generation has not yet passed, because some had translated and became mortal, over 160 years ago. I’ve also been told that this was a commandment and not a prophesy, but as you can see by the part I have emphasized above, it says it’s the word of the Lord as spoken by the mouth of His prophets. Please note it says that temple will be dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith. We know that Joseph Smith didn’t translate, but died by gunshot on June 27, 1844.

According the the Doctrines and Covenants, if you follow the link you can see that these are revelations given by Jospeh Smith.

I have asked several Mormons, but have gotten conflicting responses. It appears to be a false prophesy. Can you please explain how it’s not?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

zerinus doesn’t reply to questions he can’t answer, and runs when painted into a corner.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

zerinus doesn’t reply to questions he can’t answer, and runs when painted into a corner.

Well maybe another Mormon will feel like explaining it for us.

In the meantime, I did find a revelation of Joseph Smith’s that appears to have come true.

In Doctrines and Covenants 3.4 (given in 1828), we find this: “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him…”

Joseph Smith gave a speech in May 1844, Smith proclaimed this: “I have more to boast of than any man ever had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a church together since the days of Adam.…Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”

Just 30 days from making that boast, on June 27, 1844; Joseph Smith was shot in Carthage jail.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[falisrm]

You have to understand these are 19 year old kids who never saw an alcoholic drink in their life. Christ did use wine and so did everyone else who lived at that time. I’m sure this has been discussed here before but water usually ment an early death. It doesn’t mean that becoming an Alcoholic is what god wants for us at this time and i’m sure its not a big discussion anyways.

The big things were about the Godhead and the pre existance, which they didn’t explain well either.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You have to understand these are 19 year old kids who never saw an alcoholic drink in their life. Christ did use wine and so did everyone else who lived at that time. I’m sure this has been discussed here before but water usually ment an early death. It doesn’t mean that becoming an Alcoholic is what god wants for us at this time and i’m sure its not a big discussion anyways.

The big things were about the Godhead and the pre existance, which they didn’t explain well either.

What has Christ’s miracle at Cana have to do with becoming an alcoholic? Who on this thread has promoted alcoholism? Catholics believe in moderation of all things.

Drinking wine in moderation can be found in scriptures.

Gen 27:25 Then he said: Bring me the meats of thy hunting, my son, that my soul may bless thee. And when they were brought, and he had eaten, he offered him wine also, which after he had drunk,

Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, that his name may be called upon therein, the tithe of thy corn, and thy wine, and thy oil, and the firstborn of thy herds and thy sheep: that thou mayst learn to fear the Lord thy God at all times.
Deu 14:24 But when the way and the place which the Lord thy God shall choose, are far off, and he hath blessed thee, and thou canst not carry all these things thither,
Deu 14:25 Thou shalt sell them all, and turn them into money, and shalt carry it in thy hand, and shalt go to the place which the Lord shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt buy with the same money whatsoever pleaseth thee, either of the herds or of sheep, wine also and strong drink, and all that thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, and shalt feast, thou and thy house:

Pro 20:1 Wine is a luxurious thing, and drunkenness riotous: whosoever is delighted therewith, shall not be wise.

Ecc 9:7 Go then, and eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with gladness: because thy works please God.

Isa 25:6 And the Lord of hosts shall make unto all people in this mountain, a feast of fat things, a feast of wine, of fat things full of marrow, of wine purified from the lees.

Isa 5:11 Woe to you that rise up early in the morning to follow drunkenness, and to drink in the evening, to be inflamed with wine.

Isa 5:22 Woe to you that are mighty to drink wine, and stout men at drunkenness.

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine. And you say: He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking. And you say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a drinker of wine, a friend of publicans and sinners.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is luxury: but be ye filled with the Holy Spirit,

1Ti 5:23 Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thy frequent infirmities.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Dempsey1919]

What should I do with the Book of Mormon they gave me?

It isn’t sacred to me, so I could dispose of it without feeling guilty, but that doesn’t seem respectful.

Should I keep it as an apologetics tool for the future? Or just get rid of it?