Just talked with the Mormons!

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

the grape juice thing is pretty funny, but it is a common belief among mormons.

before pasteurization and refrigeration “grape juice” didn’t exist, both of which are modern inventions.

The juice squeezed from a grape naturally ferments, it is unavoidable without pasteurization. “Grape juice” was absolutely impossible to make prior to these inventions. It is like saying Jesus drove a Honda.

A Methodist Minister Thomas Welch invented grape juice in 1869. He was a total tea totaler and from what I remember from the show on the history channel about it wanted to develop a nonalcoholic wine to serve guest at dinner parties as well as use in church services. before this time there was no non fermented wine(grape juice) as there was no way to keep it from fermenting.

 

[RAR]

What should I do with the Book of Mormon they gave me?

It isn’t sacred to me, so I could dispose of it without feeling guilty, but that doesn’t seem respectful.

Should I keep it as an apologetics tool for the future? Or just get rid of it?

I find it makes for good conversation to have a bookshelf full of various works of fiction…

Seriously, I think it will make a good apologetics tool and you can read a portion, too. This way you can say you’ve read some of it. And I don’t say that to be sneaky either… I think it’s a good idea to read the History of Joseph Smith… you might find it interesting that among “all those churches” he considered, he didn’t mention the One Holy Catholic Church! Also, I was positively creeped out when I read about his encounter with the “angel.” He said he was terrified and something about fearing he’d be destroyed… yeah, not exactly like when Gabriel appeared to Mary, huh? I’m sure God makes it a point to scare the living **** out of his beloved children before making an important announcement through a trusted servant. There’s a difference between the fear of God and what it sounded like Joseph may have encountered in that copse of trees that day.

RAR

 

[RebeccaJ]

You have to understand these are 19 year old kids who never saw an alcoholic drink in their life. Christ did use wine and so did everyone else who lived at that time. I’m sure this has been discussed here before but water usually ment an early death. It doesn’t mean that becoming an Alcoholic is what god wants for us at this time and i’m sure its not a big discussion anyways.

The big things were about the Godhead and the pre existance, which they didn’t explain well either.

falisrm, I have had very middle aged men get quite angry at me for telling them that Jesus drank wine. One was very insistent that JESUS DID NOT DRINK WINE. I backed off, I see no harm in him believing this particular thing.

But you are correct, the wine was generally watered down, as we do at Mass. It was something that was consumed all day, and the entire population wasn’t stumbling drunk all day long. Quite the contrary, drunkenness in the Bible (OT and NT) is considered sinful.

However, I do enjoy pointing Mormons to the story where Noah got off the ark, planted a vineyard, got drunk and passed out naked in his tent. After that much time on a boat who wouldn’t!

In the scheme of things, as relates to the Gospel, it doesn’t really matter that they drank wine or not. What does matter, is that this is just one example of Mormon twisting of the Bible to match to their beliefs.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What should I do with the Book of Mormon they gave me?

It isn’t sacred to me, so I could dispose of it without feeling guilty, but that doesn’t seem respectful.

Should I keep it as an apologetics tool for the future? Or just get rid of it?

Put it in the recycle bin.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I always wondered why grape juice didn’t exist until fairly recently! Thanks for the info.

Welch’s invented it in 1869, for the use as a non-alcoholic wine for church services. The pasteurization process kills the yeast, which ferments the wine. In 1893 his son founded Welch’s Grape Juice Company.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What should I do with the Book of Mormon they gave me?

It isn’t sacred to me, so I could dispose of it without feeling guilty, but that doesn’t seem respectful.

Should I keep it as an apologetics tool for the future? Or just get rid of it?

I’d probably dispose of it myself. All that stuff is available online for apologetics. If you return it, it may end up in someone’s hands that might be easily mislead.

God Bless,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

falisrm, I have had very middle aged men get quite angry at me for telling them that Jesus drank wine. One was very insistent that JESUS DID NOT DRINK WINE. I backed off, I see no harm in him believing this particular thing.

But you are correct, the wine was generally watered down, as we do at Mass. It was something that was consumed all day, and the entire population wasn’t stumbling drunk all day long. Quite the contrary, drunkenness in the Bible (OT and NT) is considered sinful.

However, I do enjoy pointing Mormons to the story where Noah got off the ark, planted a vineyard, got drunk and passed out naked in his tent. After that much time on a boat who wouldn’t!

In the scheme of things, as relates to the Gospel, it doesn’t really matter that they drank wine or not. What does matter, is that this is just one example of Mormon twisting of the Bible to match to their beliefs.

There’s no harm letting him believe that particular thing as you said. But according to St. Luke, Jesus drank wine. I’ve cross checked it in several versions of the Bible.

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine. And you say: He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking. And you say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a drinker of wine, a friend of publicans and sinners.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[RC_Matt]

What should I do with the Book of Mormon they gave me?

It isn’t sacred to me, so I could dispose of it without feeling guilty, but that doesn’t seem respectful.

Should I keep it as an apologetics tool for the future? Or just get rid of it?

You could always have some fun with it too. Reverently carry it around with you and watch your friends and family freak.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You could always have some fun with it too. Reverently carry it around with you and watch your friends and family freak.

To really pull it off, you must have a scripture tote. Most Mormons carry their scriptures in them. Check 'em out walking to church, you’ll see.

 

[RebeccaJ]

OK, one more thing on the wine and the claim that the translation is grape juice.

First, this from the LDS website, their scripture footnote for Isaiah 65:8

*Thus saith the Lord, As the anew wine is found in the cluster, and **one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing **is in it: so will I do for my servants’ sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

8**a* OR grape juice.

The have translated “new wine” as grape juice. Which only shows they know nothing about winemaking! lol!

 

[falisrm]

you can try and return the book of mormon since it was someone else who sacrificed their money to pay for that book to give away for free. Tell the missionaries you don’t want to throw away a book and waste money by doing that.

 

[scipio337]

Well maybe another Mormon will feel like explaining it for us.

In the meantime, I did find a revelation of Joseph Smith’s that appears to have come true.

In Doctrines and Covenants 3.4 (given in 1828), we find this: “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him…”

Joseph Smith gave a speech in May 1844, Smith proclaimed this: “I have more to boast of than any man ever had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a church together since the days of Adam.…Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”

Just 30 days from making that boast, on June 27, 1844; Joseph Smith was shot in Carthage jail.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

Bien fait!

 

[AMDGtoo]

it was someone else who sacrificed their money to pay for that book to give away for free.

Errr–to be perfectly honest here, paying for the BOM so that it can be used in prosyletizing others was hardly a known “sacrifice”, Oh the person might have virtually been forced] to give the money but he/she wasn’t allowed to know the purpose. Besides the fact that the LDS considere every member a missionary and that giving 10% of all income plus making a monthly fast offering and doing other things that their bishop says are among the requirements the person must do in order to get a temple recommend so that he can go to the temple.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Errr–to be perfectly honest here, paying for the BOM so that it can be used in prosyletizing others was hardly a known “sacrifice”…

That, and the missionaries gave it away, the owner of it is now the OP, who can do with it as they please. They have no obligation to the book, the missionaries who gave it to them, or to the people who paid the $3 for the book.

If the OP feels a monetary obligation, they could give $3 to the missionaries and THEN throw the dang thing out, make origami with it, or let it gather dust on a shelf somewhere.

 

[CarolinNC]

I am a former Mormon, so I’m not just talking through my hat.

Please remember that when you are talking with the young missionaries that their arguments are scripted. They are taught different arguments and how the keep the discussion on track (their Track, and yes they are taught to twist scripture to fit Mormon teachings). They are not listening to your questions as openly as their appear to be, because they are too busy listening to their own thoughts and tring to figure out how to get you back on topic.

Try to bring up only a few points of Catholic teaching and be persistant.

“The Mormon Challenge” by Paul Dupre is a very good book
to read for an overview of Mormonisim. He has a few CD’s also all are excellent.

The Book of Mormon is very hard to read and contains many errors, I say this since I have read it, myself.

God bless you in you efforts.