Just war And the Caananites: An Oh so Original thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter ThePuppyTurtle
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

ThePuppyTurtle

Guest
Isn’t part of the just war doctrine that you may not make any attacks meant specifically to kill innocent non-combatants (ie the Canaanite children)? If you argue that God’s command is what made it just in this case, please explain how it is intrinsically wrong?

And here’s another question about the just war doctrine, back when the list of qualifications included as a valid reason punishment, was it wrong or did the evolving nature of warfare make such wars unjust with today’s weapons? If the former, wouldn’t that also rule out the Canaanites? If the Latter, what would happen if we reverted to an earlier technological state? What if there are Aliens somewhere with weapons comparable to those earlier times?
 
I realize you are just trying to provoke a debate on this site, but, y
ou are either forgetting or do not know a basic rule about the study of History.
You cannot judge the events of the past by modern standards, especially in the case of Biblical events.
The action of the Israelites against the Caananites was a just war because G*d authorized it. End of story!
 
I realize you are just trying to provoke a debate on this site, but, y
ou are either forgetting or do not know a basic rule about the study of History.
You cannot judge the events of the past by modern standards, especially in the case of Biblical events.
So Christians can’t judge Diocletian or Nero by modern standards?
The action of the Israelites against the Caananites was a just war because G*d authorized it. End of story!
Doesn’t that seeming double standard do injury to the notion of an objective, absolute moral standard?
 
So Christians can’t judge Diocletian or Nero by modern standards?

Doesn’t that seeming double standard do injury to the notion of an objective, absolute moral standard?
Objective, absolute moral standards have at least three elements
  1. motive of the person
  2. situation or circumstances surrounding the act
  3. the nature of the act itself.
Thus a theft could be 3) a wrong act, mitigated by the fact that the individual committing the theft was 1) doing it to feed a starving family and what was taken 2) was only a small amount of food from a large supermarket.

Compare that to an individual who 3) steals a purse from an old lady knowing that it contains her life savings, out of 1) pure greed and malice after which he 2) savagely beats her.

You could hold that both acts, involving as they do, theft of property, are equally objectively wrong. However, what is also clearly true are the mitigating elements of motive and situation that would make the second act far worse, objectively speaking, than the first.

Just because ethical standards are not easy to assess does not make them less objective.

Any act, either today or at some point in history is subject to some leeway when motive and circumstances are considered. The nature of culture at any historical time is part of 2) the situation that needs to be considered.

A further point that needs to be made about God’s commands to the Israelites to wage particular forms of war on neighboring cultures is that we cannot forget that God’s purview in the matter far exceeds ours. Being all-knowing he would take into account factors that we have no idea about, for example, the consequences on all of history from that point forward through all time. We are not in a situation to know all of the potential repercussions that could be considered, so we are in no position to make judgements on the acts in question with anything even approaching sound moral judgement.
 
Isn’t part of the just war doctrine that you may not make any attacks meant specifically to kill innocent non-combatants (ie the Canaanite children)? If you argue that God’s command is what made it just in this case, please explain how it is intrinsically wrong?

And here’s another question about the just war doctrine, back when the list of qualifications included as a valid reason punishment, was it wrong or did the evolving nature of warfare make such wars unjust with today’s weapons? If the former, wouldn’t that also rule out the Canaanites? If the Latter, what would happen if we reverted to an earlier technological state? What if there are Aliens somewhere with weapons comparable to those earlier times?
God gets to do things that we are not allowed to do. He is all knowing, and knew the consequences of what He was doing. We can’t know that, so we aren’t allowed to make choices like that.

Jesus beat the buyers and the sellers in the Temple with whips, but I wouldn’t recommend doing that to the guy who stands up at the podium on Stewardship Sunday to ask for money - you’d be arrested.
 
Objective, absolute moral standards have at least three elements
  1. motive of the person
  2. situation or circumstances surrounding the act
  3. the nature of the act itself.
Thus a theft could be 3) a wrong act, mitigated by the fact that the individual committing the theft was 1) doing it to feed a starving family and what was taken 2) was only a small amount of food from a large supermarket.

Compare that to an individual who 3) steals a purse from an old lady knowing that it contains her life savings, out of 1) pure greed and malice after which he 2) savagely beats her.

You could hold that both acts, involving as they do, theft of property, are equally objectively wrong. However, what is also clearly true are the mitigating elements of motive and situation that would make the second act far worse, objectively speaking, than the first.
This seems valid, so long as one still grants that “ultimately, both are morally wrong.” It’s when one says, “the first was a sin, but the second wasn’t, due to the circumstances” that the appearance of moral relativism creeps in.

In the case given above, the question is that of knowingly killing children, during warfare. Presumably, no concept of just war theory can justify the intentional killing of children or babies.

I’ve noticed that the somewhat tricky thing about Christianity is that sexual ethics are absolute – there are no circumstances (not even to save a life, seemingly) when pre-marital sex, rape, or even masturbation, are morally justified. Mitigated in terms of the degree of moral blameworthiness, perhaps, but never morally justified.

With violence, the danger of relativism is more acute, because some forms of violence are morally justified – non-sinful. This creates the danger of confusing, to follow the analogy, “mitigating circumstances to masturbation” (e.g., the culture in which one lives; one’s age; one’s marital status) to saying that it was no sin at all, or hardly so, under the circumstances.
further point that needs to be made about God’s commands to the Israelites to wage particular forms of war on neighboring cultures is that we cannot forget that God’s purview in the matter far exceeds ours. Being all-knowing he would take into account factors that we have no idea about, for example, the consequences on all of history from that point forward through all time. We are not in a situation to know all of the potential repercussions that could be considered, so we are in no position to make judgements on the acts in question with anything even approaching sound moral judgement.
That’s true, perhaps; but how do we know when God is talking to us? This notion can easily be abused, if we think the form of violence we were propagating is God’s will. It could be a rationalization.

What is also ironic about the above is that it is saying that, because God has a complete purview of the consequences of an action, what we call “utilitarian” thinking is justified, in His case.

I’m not sure how many Christians are willing to grant in principle, though, that God could say, “have that abortion” or “commit that pre-marital sex act” because the normal rules don’t apply. For example, God saying to Hitler’s mother, “have that abortion” or a voice in someone’s head saying, “kill that pregnant woman” (Hitler’s mother).

God commanding that women or children be killed, in combat, is not far from these disturbing examples.

I think most Christians today would posit that there would practically need to be a voice from the heavens, to justify the deliberate killing of children or infants, and to interpret it as the will of God.
 
Isn’t part of the just war doctrine that you may not make any attacks meant specifically to kill innocent non-combatants (ie the Canaanite children)? If you argue that God’s command is what made it just in this case, please explain how it is intrinsically wrong?

And here’s another question about the just war doctrine, back when the list of qualifications included as a valid reason punishment, was it wrong or did the evolving nature of warfare make such wars unjust with today’s weapons? If the former, wouldn’t that also rule out the Canaanites? If the Latter, what would happen if we reverted to an earlier technological state? What if there are Aliens somewhere with weapons comparable to those earlier times?
How old are you? Answer that question first, then we will go on and answer yours. :confused:
 
God gets to do things that we are not allowed to do.
This falls in line with WL Craigs defense of the slaughter of the Canaanites, which, to be honest, I found quite distrubing.

Sarah x 🙂
 
**That’s true, perhaps; but how do we know when God is talking to us? This notion can easily be abused, if we think the form of violence we were propagating is God’s will. It could be a rationalization. **

What is also ironic about the above is that it is saying that, because God has a complete purview of the consequences of an action, what we call “utilitarian” thinking is justified, in His case.

I’m not sure how many Christians are willing to grant in principle, though, that God could say, “have that abortion” or “commit that pre-marital sex act” because the normal rules don’t apply. For example, God saying to Hitler’s mother, “have that abortion” or a voice in someone’s head saying, “kill that pregnant woman” (Hitler’s mother).

God commanding that women or children be killed, in combat, is not far from these disturbing examples.

I think most Christians today would posit that there would practically need to be a voice from the heavens, to justify the deliberate killing of children or infants, and to interpret it as the will of God.
In the case of Jewish attacks on these other cultures, for which there is substantial evidence of child sacrifice and other pernicious cultural evils, it was not just a voice in someone’s head. There was an entire litany of supernatural events that preceded the commands: Exodus from Egypt as a result of ten timely and extraordinary plagues, crossing the Red Sea, the manna and quail experience, water from rocks, pillar of fire, cloud by day, etc.

This was not merely an out of the blue psychotic little voice, there were a series of great inexplicable events, witnessed by large numbers of people. Tell me, if you were Moses and actually lived through the burning bush speaking to you, stone tablets carved in front of your eyes on a mountain, voices from heaven giving you commands in front of numerous other witnesses, wouldn’t you begin to take these seriously? Wouldn’t you trust that a command following such a series of mystifying deeds would be from God himself?

Again, the situation would seem to make a huge difference in terms of moral implications.
 
God gets to do things that we are not allowed to do. He is all knowing, and knew the consequences of what He was doing. We can’t know that, so we aren’t allowed to make choices like that.

Jesus beat the buyers and the sellers in the Temple with whips, but I wouldn’t recommend doing that to the guy who stands up at the podium on Stewardship Sunday to ask for money - you’d be arrested.
But we’re not talking about God doing those things, we’re talking about Humans doing them, At God’s command, but that still means they are justified to do an intrinsically wrong thing, which seems to be a contradiction.
 
This falls in line with WL Craigs defense of the slaughter of the Canaanites, which, to be honest, I found quite distrubing.

Sarah x 🙂
It was an entirely different world back then. It’s not like they had a special army of soldiers going out to fight the battles - everyone, including the children, was involved in the combat. The concept of “non-combatant” didn’t exist, yet.
 
But we’re not talking about God doing those things, we’re talking about Humans doing them, At God’s command, but that still means they are justified to do an intrinsically wrong thing, which seems to be a contradiction.
So we are talking about God doing these things, except he uses human agents.

Divine Command Theory has to be one of the most disturbing things out there.

I wonder why God, with His power, didn’t just smite them down. He did with Gomorrah 🤷

Sarah x 🙂
 
It was an entirely different world back then. It’s not like they had a special army of soldiers going out to fight the battles - everyone, including the children, was involved in the combat. The concept of “non-combatant” didn’t exist, yet.
Fair enough, I know little about Biblical warfare methods so I’ll take that. But surely babes in arms, toddlers, these couldn’t possibly have engaged the enemy. I know groups such as the LRA have recruited soldiers as young as 5 or 6, but still, I’m sure there was a significant number of non combatant toddlers and babes to warrant being spared?

Sarah x 🙂
 
So we are talking about God doing these things, except he uses human agents.

Divine Command Theory has to be one of the most disturbing things out there.

I wonder why God, with His power, didn’t just smite them down. He did with Gomorrah 🤷

Sarah x 🙂
We weren’t there. We don’t know what was going on behind the scenes. In any case, that was at a time when God’s Covenant was restricted only to one race. Under the New Covenant, such a thing would not be able to happen.
 
This falls in line with WL Craigs defense of the slaughter of the Canaanites, which, to be honest, I found quite distrubing.

Sarah x 🙂
Perhaps as disturbing as the fact that every human person has a death warrant on their head. Each one of us will die. It is an inevitable fact of existence. That is also the judgement or command of God.

So the reality is that the death sentence on the Cannanites is not an isolated deplorable event it is interwoven with the fact of God’s control over human life itself. A sentence we are all under and we will all have to face. That is equally deplorable.

The question is, Why has that judgement been made?

Why have each and every one of us humans been found wanting by an omnibenevolent God and sentenced to death?
 
This falls in line with WL Craigs defense of the slaughter of the Canaanites, which, to be honest, I found quite distrubing.

Sarah x 🙂
It disturbed me, as well. (“I would say that God has the right to give and take life as He sees fit. Children die all the time! If you believe in the salvation, as I do, of children, who die, what that meant is that the death of these children meant their salvation. People look at this…and think life ends at the grave but in fact this was the salvation of these children, who were far better dead … than being raised in this Canaanite culture. So whom does God wrong in commanding the destruction of the Canaanites? Not the Canaanite adults, for they were corrupt and deserving of judgement. Not the children, for they inherit eternal life. So who is wronged? Ironically, I think the most difficult part of this whole debate is the apparent wrong done to the Israeli soldiers themselves. Can you imagine what it would be like to have to break into some house and kill a terrified woman and her children? The brutalizing effect on these Israeli soldiers is disturbing.”)

In fairness, Craig is a non-Catholic apologist, and I can’t easily imagine a Catholic theologian–let alone the pope–writing these words; for one thing, it would be all-too-easy to appropriate them towards a rationalization for abortion.

Craig also never moves on to the next obvious question, though an absolutely vital one: “how do we know when it is God commanding it?”
 
Fair enough, I know little about Biblical warfare methods so I’ll take that. But surely babes in arms, toddlers, these couldn’t possibly have engaged the enemy. I know groups such as the LRA have recruited soldiers as young as 5 or 6, but still, I’m sure there was a significant number of non combatant toddlers and babes to warrant being spared?

Sarah x 🙂
Well, they would have died in either case. If the Israelites had spared them, they would have died of starvation, or been eaten by animals. I don’t know of any two year olds who have the ability to hunt and gather successfully.
 
Well, they would have died in either case. If the Israelites had spared them, they would have died of starvation, or been eaten by animals. I don’t know of any two year olds who have the ability to hunt and gather successfully.
Some would suggest adopting them to Israelite parents, though I doubt too many would be co-operative at first, those young enough would not remember their old lives by adulthood. Though they may well be infested with STDs, which would be a potential problem. Just feel free to address it.
 
So we are talking about God doing these things, except he uses human agents.

Divine Command Theory has to be one of the most disturbing things out there.

I wonder why God, with His power, didn’t just smite them down. He did with Gomorrah 🤷

Sarah x 🙂
I like how you come on here to troll. Say something is disturbing. Then end with a smile 🙂 But in reality I just shake my head and pray for you 😉
 
Deuteronomy 20

10 When thou drawest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that are found therein shall become tributary unto thee, and shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it.

13 And when the LORD thy God delivereth it into thy hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword;

14 but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take for a prey unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

16 Howbeit of the cities of these peoples, that the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth,

17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee;

18 that they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods, and so ye sin against the LORD your God.

===

First, our enemies were given the opportunity to choose peace. Joshua sent 3 such letters to the Canaanites. At first, he sent them: ‘Whoever desires to flee, should flee.’

According to Jewish law, we are not allowed to beseige a city from all 4 sides; only 3, because they must be given the opportunity to flee.

Afterwards, he sent a second message: ‘Whoever desires to accept a peaceful settlement, should make peace.’

Those who chose peace (the Gibeonites) lived. In fact, even though they employed a ruse, they were allowed to live.

Then, he sent again: ‘Whoever desires war, should do battle.’ The others chose war.

The alternative is to leave some in the land and face an unending war and even more deaths in the long-run (sound familiar?). Also, these people were immoral and practiced things like child-sacrifice and idolatry. Leaving them in place would lead to them influencing the nation of Israel to do such things. G-d didn’t want that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top