Just war doctrine?

[aggiecatholic05]

now this is purely a hypothetical. but it is an issue i have been studying on lately.

and a simple glance shows that it is a given that we are under an unjust governmet.

-widespread abortion and a ruling class that wants to keep, protect, and expand it here and around the world on the taxpayer dime
-the removal of conscience protections from doctors, pharmacists,nurses,etc
-the appoiontment of racist biased indivuals to the courts for political gain
-the continuation of war/confilct around the globe while ignoring the genocieds happening(darfur, abortion)
-the advancing tides of ‘gay marriage’
-the robbing of the people in the dying ponzi scheme that is social security
-the attempts to take a persons healt decesion and give them to politician
-the attempts to take away parental rights and give them to the u.n.

now authority to rule is a privlege not a right. abuse of that privlege can give the people cause to rebel. now my question is if we were to have a 2nd Americian Revolution would it be a just war?

assuming we fought fair i think it would be. comments?

 

[AdriannaJean]

I don’t think so. To my knowledge a for a just war you always need to be the defender not the offender. You can’t start a just war, you can only go to war to defend yourself in a just war. That’s what I know of it…

However, if the government used the military to attack the people then you would have cause for a just war.

 

[aggiecatholic05]

I don’t think so. To my knowledge a for a just war you always need to be the defender not the offender. You can’t start a just war, you can only go to war to defend yourself in a just war. That’s what I know of it…

However, if the government used the military to attack the people then you would have cause for a just war.

so after the holocaust was started poland and czecheslovakia and france invaded the british would have been unjust to fight nazi germany?

i am by no means an expert. hence my question here, but that just doesnt add up. surely something can be so aggreious that someone not directly affected can come and stop it for the sake of human dignity.

also, i think the taxpayer funded abortions count as the government attacking the citizens. since they have no means to defend themselves we would have to do it for them.

 

[AdriannaJean]

I’m no great Theologian either. So I would take everything I say with a grain of salt.

That was just what I remember from discussing Just War theory in Religion class. Though it was over a year ago so my memory might be fuzzy. I would look it up in the Catechism…actually I will do that right now and get back…

 

[rprossi]

One of the precepts of the theory of a just war is the possibility of winning or a favorable outcome. There is no sense going to war which results in your termination, according to a just war. If your opponent has a million soldier invading force with all the modern weapons and you only with 100 with sticks and stones, your just war does not apply to your defense because it means annihilation.

Also, you must be physically invaded and/or attacked unjustly.

There must be no other possibility to exercise your position or life other than a just war. .

 

[aggiecatholic05]

One of the precepts of the theory of a just war is the possibility of winning or a favorable outcome. There is no sense going to war which results in your termination, according to a just war. If your opponent has a million soldier invading force with all the modern weapons and you only with 100 with sticks and stones, your just war does not apply to your defense because it means annihilation.

Also, you must be physically invaded and/or attacked unjustly.

There must be no other possibility to exercise your position or life other than a just war. .

well i think if it came down to it, people would be suprised how the numbers turned out, so i dont think we would be precluded from winning. more people and better guns doesnt make for better fighters.

 

[ahollars]

If they continue in their determined oppression to threaten Pro-Lifers, that we have no right to refuse to participate, and begin punishment by using imprisonment, fines, shutting of institutions, businesses and charities, unjust lawsuits, or other punitive actions, then the answer is undeniably YES!!!

Call it the Second American Civil War. Bring it on…

:knight2:

 

[phoage]

The Just War Doctrine from this web site:
catholic.com/library/Just_War_Doctrine_1.asp

1. The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2. All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. There must be serious prospects of success;
4. The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
5. It does not say just physical damage but even without that, it can be argued that the results of abortion are “…lasting, grave, and certain”.
6. As there has not been an attempt at a Constitutional ammendment to ban abortion, it would be difficult to justify war using abortion as the cause.
7. I have not the data to evaluate this but I am skeptical based on the next.
8. Revolutions in general have historically been disasters from the personal standpoint of most of those involved. The first American revolution was remarkably mild compared with most but even it had its share of tragedys and atrocities. Many times the original lofty causes change several times over the course of the fighting. As examples, See France 1789 and Russia 1917.

In addition to the above:

“The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.”

The interpretation of this appears to be “duely constituted authorities” which would preclude revolutionary leaders.

From reading the above link, it would appear that it is nigh well impossible for a revolution to be a “Just War”.

Patrick

 

[Havard]

How is this different from the liberation theology that the Church has condemned?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

This is a very scary thread…

The idea that Catholics would consider going to war against their fellow citizens, which would most certainly result in lost lives is something I simply can’t get my mind around.

I understand the frustration, but to resort to violent overthrow? Is that really what people want?

 

[aggiecatholic05]

This is a very scary thread…

serious issues usually are

The idea that Catholics would consider going to war against their fellow citizens, which would most certainly result in lost lives is something I simply can’t get my mind around.

every war risks the loss of life, yet the Church still has the just war doctrrine. some wars are simply unavoidable

I understand the frustration, but to resort to violent overthrow? Is that really what people want?

would you have wanted to live under hitler in nazi germany? violence should never be the first response, and i do think there are still peaceful attempts that can be made, but if those fail and the government remains unjust we have the right and duty to act.

 

[ahollars]

The definition of peace is not the “absence of war”.

I am not advocating overthrowing the U.S. Government. (Actually, I work for Uncle Sam ). Just War does not allow us to take up arms now, because our peaceful efforts are not being criminalized or punished in any way.

However…

Everyone, be warned. The pro-choice crowd will grow more vicious and vengeful as we pro-lifers gain credibility. We are gaining in stature and number, and when they finally admit that they are not the majority, expect a truly disheartening and perhaps even violent battle. One of us will be martyred for speaking out. Don’t assume that it can’t happen in this country.

I do not expect violence from the government. I expect it to come from activists. I will not be surprised if oppression comes from the government. The beginnings are showing their faces:

1. Re-introduction of the “Fairness Doctrine”
2. Proposed elimination of the Conscience Protection Clause
3. Overturned Executive Orders
4. Increased, aggressive taxpayer funding and the creation of new programs
5. Selecting radicals as our nation’s agency directors

…and it’s only been four months.

Remember the words of Archbishop Oscar Romero:

“No soldier is obliged to obey an order contrary to the law of God.”

Neither are we.

 

[Havard]

His Holiness has called liberation theology a heresy… I ask again, how is this not a form of liberation theology?

 

[aggiecatholic05]

His Holiness has called liberation theology a heresy… I ask again, how is this not a form of liberation theology?

how is it a form? was die wiederstand a form of liberation theology? people are not bound to follow unjust laws and leaders-at that point they can form a new government, the problem is the oppresors are gonna resist that is where the possibility of fighting comes in.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

serious issues usually are

every war risks the loss of life, yet the Church still has the just war doctrrine. some wars are simply unavoidable

would you have wanted to live under hitler in nazi germany? violence should never be the first response, and i do think there are still peaceful attempts that can be made, but if those fail and the government remains unjust we have the right and duty to act.

I’m sorry, but I simply can’t defend preparing for civil war because of things that we think that the current President will do. The “defense” for this idea contains words like “beginnings”, “proposed” and talks about laws that aren’t even being considered.

I understand the frustration when things don’t go our way, but plotting government overthrow doesn’t seem to me like a positive outlet for that frustration.

 

[aggiecatholic05]

I’m sorry, but I simply can’t defend preparing for civil war because of things that we think that the current President will do. The “defense” for this idea contains words like “beginnings”, “proposed” and talks about laws that aren’t even being considered.

I understand the frustration when things don’t go our way, but plotting government overthrow doesn’t seem to me like a positive outlet for that frustration.

2 things.

1. just because its not on official paper yet doesnt mean that any specific law isnt being fully considereed by the powers that be.
2. discussing if a certian action would be justifiable is not the same as plotting to do that action.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

2 things.

1. just because its not on official paper yet doesnt mean that any specific law isnt being fully considereed by the powers that be.
2. discussing if a certian action would be justifiable is not the same as plotting to do that action.

I’ll leave you to your discussion then, I apologize for the intrusion.

 

[rprossi]

There really should be no just war policy.
Jesus said:" Come. Follow me."
Jesus spoke out against injustice in The Beatitudes not so much as saying do not but do this.
The Ten Commandments tell us the rules.
Then we go about making exceptions to the truth and God’s rule.
We cannot have viloence and therefore we cannot have war.
Even if it means surrendering to the enemy, we can not be violent.
Speakout. Demonstrate if you will but never promote violence.
We must be peace makers not warriors.

 

[ahollars]

There really should be no just war policy.
Jesus said:" Come. Follow me."
Jesus spoke out against injustice in The Beatitudes not so much as saying do not but do this.
The Ten Commandments tell us the rules.
Then we go about making exceptions to the truth and God’s rule.
We cannot have viloence and therefore we cannot have war.
Even if it means surrendering to the enemy, we can not be violent.
Speakout. Demonstrate if you will but never promote violence.
We must be peace makers not warriors.

I’ll say it again, the definition of peace is not the absence of war.

Who are you to tell His Holiness that there should be no Just War Doctrine? That is not your decision to make.

The truth is that most pacifists are motivated more by fear rather than an actual desire to not use violence. I’m not saying that you are, but you sound just like the ones I do know about.

Self defense against an unjust aggressor is always justified. Evil must never be allowed to believe that good men will do nothing that will actually be effective to stop their actions. People like us are the reason people like you can even say things like this wishful utopianism.

Now sit back and get out of the way for the rest of us while we do our jobs.

We simply must do this. Too many have sacrificed their all to purchase our liberty and they are watching from above, wondering if we will allow their sacrifice to have been in vain. They know that freedom is not free. It never has been, and never will be.

America has paid the price of freedom in its own blood, both here on our own shores, and abroad throughout the world. Americans have shed their blood by the millions for freedom, and that freedom stretches from the United States throughout the world. From Concord, to Bunker Hill, to Trenton, to Lake Champlain, to Valley Forge, to Cowpens, to Yorktown…to Tripoli…to Ft. Mieg, to Lake Erie, to Horseshoe Bend, to Chippewa and to New Orleans… to The Alamo, San Jacinto, Buena Vista, Palo Alto, Monterrey and the Halls of Montezuma…to Bull Run (twice), Antietam, Fredericksburg, Shiloh, Vicksburg, The Wilderness, Gettysburg, Atlanta and Appomattox…to Manila Bay, Guantanamo Bay, to Santiago and San Juan Hill…to Chateau Thierry and the Argonne Forest…to Pearl Harbor, North Africa, Sicily, Italy, to Normandy, Luxembourg, to islands and atolls throughout the Pacific, Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, to the Philippines…to Seoul, Pusan, Inchon, Chosin, Chipyoongi, Pork Chop Hill and throughout Korea…to Ia Drang, Khe Sahn, Dak To, Hue, Kim Son, Hamburger Hill, “Downtown” Hanoi, An Loc and all across South Vietnam into Cambodia and Laos…to Grenada and Panama…to Kuwait…to Fallujah, the Debecka Pass, Nasiriyah, Haditha, Baghdad, Al Anbar, Mosel, Ramadi and throughout the Sunni Triangle…to Mazari Sharif, to Kabul, to Takur Ghar, to Kandahar, to Tora Bora, to Operation Anaconda and throughout Afghanistan to name but a small few.

None of us will ever apologize for taking up arms.

Take a trip to your nearest veteran’s cemetery before you say something like that again.

:knight2:

 

[phoage]

I believe that both rprossi and ahollars are both a bit overboard (and off topic?) in their responses.

There are many Biblical citations that support violence in support of the correct cause. Just as one example, the money changers in the temple. Just war doctrine has been around for a long time and been gone over by some pretty smart, devout, dedicated individuals and found to be good. Now if you personally are a pacafist, the Church has no problem with that but you have no cause to condemn others who do not see it the same way.

Having said that, there are many good arguments to support the pacafist doctrine to Christianity. I personally have met some pacefists who were couragious and firm in their faith. I have also met some who were snivelling cowards but the Lord admonishes us “Judge not lest ye be judged”. If that sticks in your craw, try a bit of Christian charity and assume, until proven otherwise that your correspondant falls in the first group, not the second.

Just by the way, in case the above is not pointed enough, I was a combat infantryman in the Army for 15 years so I have made my contribution.

AS far as the discussion goes, the OP says, “now my question is if we were to have a 2nd Americian Revolution would it be a just war?”

As I answered, where we sit currently, no. In addition, I do not see how anyone can figure the odds on requirements 3&4 that I listed. Finally as the Church seems to lay the onous on national authority and that is the one thing a revolution does not have, I do not see how this could be justified.