Just War?

[JohnT58]

‘Just War’ arguments have appeared in another thread relating to abortion, and I assume there are a lot of advocates on this. However I believe this leaves the universal Church in a bit of a quandry, as rival Catholic/non-Catholic nations could both espouse this in a war.
I actually thought this kind of thinking was a bit defunct in the Church.
I recall somewhere, after WWII, and Paul VI’s address to the UN, something along the lines of ‘no more war ever again’ (paraphrasing), that no pope has ever declared a ‘just’ war, and have strongly advocated peaceful resolutions.
I may be wrong, I’m no expert or theologian, but is there an example of the church declaring a just war since WWII?

 

[kennewickmike]

Your right, the Church has not declared one. Pope John Paul II did not see a reason to ever have war again.

 

[JohnT58]

I was wondering if the advocation of ‘just wars’ was more prevalent in USA.
Outwardly at least, Americans seem more patriotic, politially speaking, with a greater sense of pride in their military than some other countries. I’m not sure if this is due to co nscription, or for cultural reasons.
I assume people can refuse military service on the grounds of conscience. I know the Quaker movement was heavily involved in this in other regions. Is there a corresponding group within the wider Catholic Church, who object to participation in war on the grounds of conscience?

 

[kennewickmike]

I can really only speak of what I have noticed in recent years. Saying that, there were a few voices against going in Iraq from the Catholic Church in America but they were drowned out by the people that wanted too. Mostly in my local churches we prayed for diplomatic means to triumph so we would not go to war.

Here is some interesting reading if you want
americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/

 

[Texas_Roofer]

‘Just War’ arguments have appeared in another thread relating to abortion, and I assume there are a lot of advocates on this. However I believe this leaves the universal Church in a bit of a quandry, as rival Catholic/non-Catholic nations could both espouse this in a war.
I actually thought this kind of thinking was a bit defunct in the Church.
I recall somewhere, after WWII, and Paul VI’s address to the UN, something along the lines of ‘no more war ever again’ (paraphrasing), that no pope has ever declared a ‘just’ war, and have strongly advocated peaceful resolutions.
I may be wrong, I’m no expert or theologian, but is there an example of the church declaring a just war since WWII?

I do not recall a requirement for the Pope to intervene and declare the war just. The doctrine requires catholics to meet certain criteria prior to attempting to use war as a means to resolve an issue. Today only rarely would a dictator be able to inflict so much damage as to warrant a war. With international travel and international communication some form of peaceful means should be used. Additionally, the church does not require all be treated fair, only that reasonable treatment exists. The issue does not apply to abortion for several reasons 1) no one is required to obtain abortions, 2)the doctrine restricts acts of war to proper civil authority. Additionally in any country allowing voting the doctrine is practically useless, as voting can correct the issue.

Hope that helps

 

[bilop]

‘Just War’ arguments have appeared in another thread relating to abortion, and I assume there are a lot of advocates on this. However I believe this leaves the universal Church in a bit of a quandry, as rival Catholic/non-Catholic nations could both espouse this in a war.
I actually thought this kind of thinking was a bit defunct in the Church.
I recall somewhere, after WWII, and Paul VI’s address to the UN, something along the lines of ‘no more war ever again’ (paraphrasing), that no pope has ever declared a ‘just’ war, and have strongly advocated peaceful resolutions.
I may be wrong, I’m no expert or theologian, but is there an example of the church declaring a just war since WWII?

The Church never declares “just wars”. The Church has no authority to. If you look at the doctrine of just war, it is up to the legitimate civil authorities to determine the justness of a war.

God Bless

 

[JimG]

As bilop already mentioned, the Church does not make determinations regarding whether or not any particular war meets just war criteria, because that is a matter of prudential judment left to the civil authorities.

The issue is even more complex as it relates to modern warfare, since even in a just war, both sides may be found using some immoral tactics. Ironically, the invention of “smart bombs” makes it easier for a nation to try to meet just war criteria, since they are thus able to limit targeting to military targets as opposed to indiscriminate bombing.

 

[Ender]

I actually thought this kind of thinking was a bit defunct in the Church.

Issues of morality do not become defunct.

I recall somewhere, after WWII, and Paul VI’s address to the UN, something along the lines of ‘no more war ever again’ (paraphrasing), that no pope has ever declared a ‘just’ war, and have strongly advocated peaceful resolutions.

It is not within the purview of the Church to state whether a war is just or not. There may be cases where a war is obviously unjust but generally the determination of the justness of a war is left to those who have to decide to wage it. They may decide incorrectly but it is their responsibility, not that of the Pope or the Church

Ender

 

[JohnT58]

Issues of morality do not become defunct.

I was not suggesting that the issues themselves become defunct, only certain lines of thinking, and our reactions to them. For example, eating meat on a Friday was once a mortal sin, and organ tansplants were not allowed, but now they are.
I simply find it irregular to say that it is wrong to kill, then provide a theological framework for killing, and leaving it up to the individual to then decide wether it is right or wrong for him/herself. On the abortion issue, it clearly says it is wrong, and not up to the individual to decide for herself the morality of it.

 

[xformer7]

I was wondering if the advocation of ‘just wars’ was more prevalent in USA.
Outwardly at least, Americans seem more patriotic, politically speaking, with a greater sense of pride in their military than some other countries. I’m not sure if this is due to conscription, or for cultural reasons.
conscience?

Quick side note FWIW: The US military has been an all-volunteer force for a few decades now. Conscription would not be a factor.

 

[JohnT58]

Quick side note FWIW: The US military has been an all-volunteer force for a few decades now. Conscription would not be a factor.

Thanks for that, I wasn’t aware. I had the notion that some type military service was mandatory.

 

[Drawmack]

I was wondering if the advocation of ‘just wars’ was more prevalent in USA.
Outwardly at least, Americans seem more patriotic, politially speaking, with a greater sense of pride in their military than some other countries. I’m not sure if this is due to co nscription, or for cultural reasons.
I assume people can refuse military service on the grounds of conscience. I know the Quaker movement was heavily involved in this in other regions. Is there a corresponding group within the wider Catholic Church, who object to participation in war on the grounds of conscience?

I’m a little confused by this post. There hasn’t been a draft (conscription) in this country since Viet Nam.

 

[Ender]

I was not suggesting that the issues themselves become defunct, only certain lines of thinking, and our reactions to them. For example, eating meat on a Friday was once a mortal sin, and organ tansplants were not allowed, but now they are.

The ban on eating meat on Friday was a Church restriction, not something Christ instituted, so the Church could rescind that restriction as she chose. Morality, however, does not change over time and there has been no indication that the just war framework the Church has used for the last 1700 years was in error.

I simply find it irregular to say that it is wrong to kill, then provide a theological framework for killing …

The Church has never condemned all killing; this is simply a misunderstanding of the fifth commandment.

…and leaving it up to the individual to then decide wether it is right or wrong for him/herself. On the abortion issue, it clearly says it is wrong, and not up to the individual to decide for herself the morality of it.

No moral issue is left to the individual to decide for himself. An intrinsic evil is wrong under all circumstances but not every evil is intrinsically so and in those the circumstances determine whether the act is justified. Killing falls into the latter group. The Church has always said, for example, that it is justifiable to kill in self defense. Abortion is intrinsically evil; killing is not.

Ender

 

[Drawmack]

The ban on eating meat on Friday was a Church restriction, not something Christ instituted, so the Church could rescind that restriction as she chose. Morality, however, does not change over time and there has been no indication that the just war framework the Church has used for the last 1700 years was in error.
The Church has never condemned all killing; this is simply a misunderstanding of the fifth commandment.

Not to hijack the thread, but a pertinent sideline. We are still supposed to fast from something on Friday and meat is recommended. The teaching to fast on Friday wasn’t rescinded, only the mandate of the object we are to fast from was. If I’m not mistaken, the object was rescinded so that we could choose something more appropriate if fasting from meat wasn’t a big deal to us. I could be wrong, but that’s my understanding from reading the pertinent documents.

 

[JohnT58]

The ban on eating meat on Friday was a Church restriction, not something Christ instituted, so the Church could rescind that restriction as she chose. Morality, however, does not change over time and there has been no indication that the just war framework the Church has used for the last 1700 years was in error.
The Church has never condemned all killing; this is simply a misunderstanding of the fifth commandment.
No moral iss ue is left to the individual to decide for himself. An intrinsic evil is wrong under all circumstances but not every evil is intrinsically so and in those the circumstances determine whether the act is justified. Killing falls into the latter group. The Church has always said, for example, that it is justifiable to kill in self defense. Abortion is intrinsically evil; killing is not.

Ender

2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.
2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• *the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.*
  These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine
  The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

It seems to me that that the Church urges us to avoid war, more so especially in this modern age. While the conditions laid down for the just war seem reasonable, the qualification for whose responsiblity it is to determine wether or not it is just is the ‘weakest link’ for me. Can those who would determine abortion as lawful, really be entrusted to determine a just war?
Again, and not to repeat my self from my initial post there is nothing to stop, (and it has happened in the past) when the authorities, even church authorities in 2 countries engaged in war delcaring that their side is justified. Indeed one can envision a situation, when both countries could meet the criteria outlined above.

 

[phoage]

From what I have read of Just War doctrine, the Vatican would not declare a Just War but they might declare a war unjust.

As much of the information to make a determination of a war’s justness is confidential, it might be impossible to declare a war absolutely just, but it might be easier to declare it unjust.

From the history I have read, there is speculation that the reason Pius XII did not declare the Axis as participating in an unjust war was at least partially because he believed he could provide more effective help for holocaust victims behind the scenes.

FWIW

 

[JimG]

From what I have read of Just War doctrine, the Vatican would not declare a Just War but they might declare a war unjust.

As much of the information to make a determination of a war’s justness is confidential, it might be impossible to declare a war absolutely just, but it might be easier to declare it unjust.

From the history I have read, there is speculation that the reason Pius XII did not declare the Axis as participating in an unjust war was at least partially because he believed he could provide more effective help for holocaust victims behind the scenes.

FWIW

I agree. Any such declaration by the Pope would have resulted in additional Nazi killings.

 

[JohnT58]

WWII, would clearly have been one of the best examples of a ‘just’ war, in gerneral terms.
Pope Pius XII position is an entirely different matter and would deserve a thread on its own.
But to get back to the debate on ‘just war’ .From differing viewpoints it, WWII, may not satisfy certain criteria. Say for example, the resistence movement in France. Could they really have expected success in taking on the Third Reich? (This could be extended to any underground, paramilitary movements in armed struggle against oppressive regimes) .It was by no means certain that the Allies could have anticipated success either.

The ‘serious prospect of success’ criteria, adds, in my opinion, an element of ‘might is right’, which I find disturbing.

 

[JohnT58]

From what I have read of Just War doctrine, the Vatican would not declare a Just War but they might declare a war unjust.

Then in diplomatic terms, any war they don’t delcare unjust, they are giving tacit approval for?

 

[JimG]

Then in diplomatic terms, any war they don’t delcare unjust, they are giving tacit approval for?

No. The Vatican simply is not in the habit of making declarations about particular wars. It does however, have a diplomatic corps whose job is to work for peace in whatever way possible.

It may be that the just war theory was designed for simpler times, when wars were limited by the means available.