Just what is a "Clown Mass"......?

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brotherhrolf said:
So, Cat? Anything goes? Anything is just…OK? This “I’m OK; you’re OK” paradigm pervades CAF. The Mass under which I grew up is eschewed for “whatever floats your boat”? Ostensibly, there exists no right or wrong. .
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It’s seems to me that most Catholics on this forum have a decent sense of orthodoxy, but absolutely no sense of orthopraxy.

They’re missing one half of the “Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi” equation. If the liturgy is demolished and rebuilt at the whim of each generation, we lose all continuity with the Church’s tradition, and the faith loses its foundation. The reforms which followed the council set a very dangerous precedent.
 
Indyann said:
Do you mean like this

goneworleans.about.com/od/festivals/a/mardigrasmass.htm
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My Catholic boy’s high school was three blocks downriver from St. Augustine. My Catholic boy’s high school had their eigth grade housed at St. Augustine in 1964. All three classes. We went to Friday Mass at St. Aug. There was a black funeral parlor a block upriver from St. Aug. The Brother’s let us out of class so that we could participate in the cultural identity of our city.

The brass band came out of the parlor followed by the coffin. The band played the dirge “Just a closer walk with thee” and escorted the coffin to the doors of St. Aug. The band did not enter. There was no Jazz requiem Mass in 1964. The coffin came out and the funeral procession with band proceeded to the cemetary.

This I saw with my own two eyes. There were no Jazz masses in 1964. We were “unam sanctam catholicam ecclesiam”. Negro or Caucasian. Vatican II changed all that.

Out of unity, divisiveness. I’m OK; you’re OK.
 
I just want to interject a note of caution here.
I started this thread to get the answer to a specific term that I had heard often on these boards.
I have now received that answer.

I did not wish to start a debate on the subject, or worse, an argument.

The simple fact that EVERY CATHOLIC must keep in mind is that the OF and EF are both licit masses, and as such, so long as they are celebrated within the rubrics there is nothing “wrong” with them.

However - The Holy Father has expressed His concern over the lack of reverence in the mass. He has done so in a number of ways. The Moto Proprio being one, and saying the Pauline mass Ad Orientum is another.
EWTN has also been a source of good example in their masses, reintroducing a fair amount of Latin into the liturgy.

It is my hope that as this debate within the Church plays out that each side will see and learn from the other. Without endorsing any of the things I saw on the linked videos, I will say that certain inovations have their place in certain situations and specific groups. Certainly we can allow for certain variations in a mass celebrated at a youth retreat, or in a private home or something of that nature.
However I do not believe such things should be used during a “Normal Sunday Service” when those attending may or may not feel favorably toward them.

I hope that someday virtually every parish will offer both the EF and the OF side by side.

Peace
James
 
brotherhrolf said:
My Catholic boy’s high school was three blocks downriver from St. Augustine. My Catholic boy’s high school had their eigth grade housed at St. Augustine in 1964. All three classes. We went to Friday Mass at St. Aug. There was a black funeral parlor a block upriver from St. Aug. The Brother’s let us out of class so that we could participate in the cultural identity of our city.

The brass band came out of the parlor followed by the coffin. The band played the dirge “Just a closer walk with thee” and escorted the coffin to the doors of St. Aug. The band did not enter. There was no Jazz requiem Mass in 1964. The coffin came out and the funeral procession with band proceeded to the cemetary.

This I saw with my own two eyes. There were no Jazz masses in 1964. We were “unam sanctam catholicam ecclesiam”. Negro or Caucasian. Vatican II changed all that.

Out of unity, divisiveness. I’m OK; you’re OK.
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Before you apparently edited the post I quoted, it ended with something like “I wouldn’t be surprised to see something like a clown Mass in my parish”

Therefore, I responded with the link to the “Mardi gras” Mass.

Why must you be so defensive? I was in no way disputing what you observed, or discounted you opinions in any way.

And yes, I am Ok. It is way above my paygrade to determine if you are OK or not.
 
Indeed, JRKH, indeed. Both are valid Masses. It is a crying shame that I have to drive 25 miles (one way) to avoid what goes on in my local geographical parish where I can hear “Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord” from the 1970’s musical Godspell each Advent, have the big communal “Introduce yourself to your neighbors” at the beginning of Mass (Hey, this is just like First Baptist down the street) and so on and so forth.

I have never said on CAF anything about the validity of the EF or OF. I attend a reverent OF cathedral parish as I have since 1983. The last TLM I attended was in the late 70s. It has never been about the form of the Mass but rather about all the additons.

I was in my early 20s in the early 70s. I was in the Navy most of those years. When I came home on leave, I was shocked at how marginalized my parents were as well as our neighbors. Everyone used to attend the 10:30 Mass on Sunday…until the guitars came out. Then they moved to the 8am Mass…until the guitars came out. Then they moved to the 5pm Vigil Mass on Saturday where I could find my folks and our neighbors - marginalized because they didn’t wan’t to hear Simon and Garfunkle.

So many things pushed through that were not directed by Vatican II. I get to kneel to receive Communion once a year when I attend Mass on Ash Wednesday before choir practice at our local Indult parish. I don’t receive in the hand and it is an absolute blessing to me to recieve Communion kneeling.

Would that I could do that at my own cathedral parish.

I’m not dead yet nor are a lot of my parents’ generation. I’m 57 and my uncle and aunt are still going strong in their 80s.

There are far too many of us alive who remember what HMC was like before 1965.
 
brotherhrolf said:
“Clown Masses” are but the tip of the iceburg and it started much earlier than the 90s.

In 1986, I was a member of our cathedral choir. We were asked to sing for the diocese’s 25th anniversary Mass. Out came liturgical dancers in diaphonous gowns wafting bowls filled with charcoal and incense. It was all I could do to keep my mouth off the floor and keep singing.

I wish I could say that was my only experience. Unfortunately, it was not. I sang for two other diocesan Masses with liturgical dancers in diaphonous gowns and then came the “pole dancers” - the folks with 10’ tall poles with 8’ long ribbons weaving and writhing up the main aisle of the cathedral.

After the last experience, I have refused to sing for any more diocesan events.

Sadly, such things exist. I was there.
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There is a time and place for everything. **
And i think when humanity behaves in a ‘expressionist dance’ before the altar - they are detracting from the Lord…whom ALL glory and honor is due.

Is this the sort of dance you were referring to…?
I dont see any members in pews so i don’t know what thats about.
However; any dance form not Traditionally done since the early Church is probably distracting. I am not so sure the Apostles would have allowed anything to detract from the purpose of the Mass - Liturgy.

BUT - obey and pray isn’t all that bad…in fact, by your prayers and those who want to go back to the ways things were - i think the results are trickling in. 😉
 
Dauphin said:
It’s seems to me that most Catholics on this forum have a decent sense of orthodoxy, but absolutely no sense of orthopraxy.
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That is so well said, and I think it may be true of American Catholics, in general, because of the strong influence of Protestantism. It needs to be remembered that Catholicism grew out of Judaism, which is a very strongly orthopraxic religion. To them and to us, what you do is as important as what you believe. The two things go hand in hand. In most Protestant faiths, belief comes first and among perhaps the majority of American Protestants, practice can even be seen as evil and wrong. It’s the “works won’t save you” mentality in action. It carries over quite easily to infecting Catholics into believing that it’s “OK” how we worship, no matter what, as long as we just believe.

I converted to Catholicism because in its orthodox form (I refuse to say “traditionalist” form because that suggests that it’s old and not relevant anymore) it rejects this. Catholicism is supposed to be disciplined and reverent. It is supposed to embrace Tradition (with a capital T.)

Cat wrote:
In my opinion, your statement is the same as when Protestants say that lighting candles during the worship service will lead their church down the Road to Rome and Catholicism. People actually believe this.
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And believe it or not, those people are partially correct, although in a slightly different sense than maybe they intend. What we do and how we do it is very important. The liturgy exists for a reason and it developed as it did for a reason.
 
Huh? What? I am confused.

You brought up the example of the so-called “Mardi Gras” Mass at St. Augustine’s and I pointed out that such was not the case in 1964. I went to school at St. Augustine’s and described what I saw. Period.

According to the “I’m OK; you’re OK” paradigm, what? I’m not entitled to my opinions but you are? That’s not “I’m OK; you’re OK”.

Mardi Gras Masses and Jazz Masses…yep, they exist. At St. Augustine’s. The archdiocese of New Orleans moved to close St. Augustine’s after Katrina and a whole bunch of Yankees moved in to stop the closure.

Meanwhile, the historic parishes of my ancestors, Our Lady of Good Counsel and St. Henry, had cops come to bash down the doors and evict the parishoners when the archdiocese moved to close them last year.

Not about you Indyann or against you…I’m sorry if I disturb you. I am simply voicing my opinion which I have kept for over 40 years. Not all of us, including those of us who were teenagers back then, thought Vatican II was spiffy.
 
From what I read - Vatican ll is blamed for far more than what it was intended.
I think the wording of Vatican ll allowed an opening for those who had an agenda to take advantage.

But alot of that Vatican ll was for the good. And some good came from it, but unfortunately, things got utterly twisted and abused.
Shame of it is, not a whole lot actually know how out of context things have gotten.
 
if it were only just a few clown masses:dts:. i went to a novus ordo mass once where they were praying during the “prayers of the faithful” for female priests and the acceptance for homosexuality. i grabbed my daughter and got out of their fast.
i will say this though, less than a year later the whole parish was shut down. now i dont know if it was coincidence or not.because the bishop or any other catholic representative didnt let anyone know.
i feel that by not letting other priests, parishes, and other catholics know publicly that this sort of thing is unacceptable and will not be tolerated encourages other priests and parishes to push the envelop.
i guess the thing that i dont understand about the novus ordo mass is this. if the novus ordo is so special and worthy of worship, why do they feel the need to always change it and put their own twists to it? dont they get tired of going to mass that you never exactly know what is going to happen or take place? or is that it! is that part of the excitement? the not knowing?
i hope i am not coming across as a smart alec. these are true questions i dont understand.
 
brotherhrolf said:
Huh? What? I am confused.

You brought up the example of the so-called “Mardi Gras” Mass at St. Augustine’s and I pointed out that such was not the case in 1964. I went to school at St. Augustine’s and described what I saw. Period.

According to the “I’m OK; you’re OK” paradigm, what? I’m not entitled to my opinions but you are? That’s not “I’m OK; you’re OK”.

Mardi Gras Masses and Jazz Masses…yep, they exist. At St. Augustine’s. The archdiocese of New Orleans moved to close St. Augustine’s after Katrina and a whole bunch of Yankees moved in to stop the closure.

Meanwhile, the historic parishes of my ancestors, Our Lady of Good Counsel and St. Henry, had cops come to bash down the doors and evict the parishoners when the archdiocese moved to close them last year.

Not about you Indyann or against you…I’m sorry if I disturb you. I am simply voicing my opinion which I have kept for over 40 years. Not all of us, including those of us who were teenagers back then, thought Vatican II was spiffy.
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If you carefully read my first post, you will see that you had said something like “I wouldn’t be surprised to see something like a clown Mass in my parish”
Then I explained how I came across that link to the Mardi Gra Mass.

Never thought it was about me. And you don’t disturb me at all.

I was a young Mom with 4 kids under 6 at the time. To be truthful, I didn’t have much time to question the changes. I trusted the Pastor.

If he said, “this is the way we do it now”. I accepted that.

Then when we moved to a parish that had a “cry room”, I was in 7th heaven. ( I had never mastered the art of corralling 4 kids and reading a Missal).

I have never said I approved of any abuses. I love the Mass, as it is said on EWTN. If,only they all could be said with the same reverence.

I do admit though, that I sometimes pray the “Pater Noster” in English. Just one less filter for this aging brain to engage.

Then, you threw out the I’m Ok. You’re OK.

I percieved this as sarcastic. Perhaps, I was wrong.
 
weepixie71 said:
… i guess the thing that i dont understand about the novus ordo mass is this. if the novus ordo is so special and worthy of worship, why do they feel the need to always change it and put their own twists to it?
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Why? It actually quite simple, and I’m not being flip here: it’s precisely because they can. 😦
 
Indyann said:
Then, you threw out the I’m Ok. You’re OK.

I percieved this as sarcastic. Perhaps, I was wrong.
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I’m 57 years old. I grew up with the Latin Mass. I was an altar boy. I loved it. My parish had a cry room on the left side of the altar separated from the altar by a big glass wall - this was in 1956. My mamma had the three of us and you better believe we didn’t cut up during Mass.

I have seen the Church of my childhood become something quite different from that Church in which I grew up. “I’m OK; you’re OK” has nothing to do with the Church in which I grew up. “I’m OK; you’re OK” is what tore out the communion rails. It is what allowed liturgical dancers, clowns, priests running up and down the aisles for the sign of peace, ad infinitum. I’m not even going to start on the music because I will become uncharitable.

I’m 57 years old. I attend a reverent OF cathedral parish for which I have had to drive 25 miles one way and have done so since 1983. The last TLM or EF I attended was in 1978.

I’m sorry I offended you. That’s not how I operate. I am simply a voice of my generation. A voice which did not get heard some 45 years ago.
 
For goodness’s sake, brotherhrolf! Where did you get all that awful stuff from my post?

Of course, everything is not OK!!! There are rubrics for the Mass, both EF and OF, that Holy Mother Church has given us, and we (the clergy and the laypeople) must follow these rubrics. This is not done to suppress our worship, but to enhance it and to bring it into line with what GOD wants, which will be our ultimate happiness. We do great wrong to bring innovation into the Mass, although the rubrics actually seem to give quite a bit of freedom (e.g., we are free to select appropriate hymns, the priest is free to give a homily that he writes himself, etc.).

Of COURSE I don’t eschew the Mass you grew up with, although I must say that if it makes you and some of these other folks so cantankerous, maybe there is a problem somewhere. Just kidding. Seriously, I recognize the value of the EF of the Mass, even if I choose to serve at OF Mass. And I recognize exactly what you are saying–that there were (and still are) many people who were (are) fully engaged in the Traditional Latin Mass and had (have) no trouble knowing exactly what’s going on, what the Latin means, what the gestures and motions mean, etc.

Of course right and wrong exist. Where on EARTH did you derive that I believe differently from my post?!! All I was trying to do is point out to Dauphin that he is really stretching it to say that the OF encourages the introduction of innovation. The Form of the Mass does NOT introduce anything. It’s PEOPLE who introduce innovations contrary to the will of the Church and God. The two forms of the Mass have been pronounced “good” by the Holy Mother Church, which speaks for Jesus Christ the Lord. (That’s what irks me about Dauphin’s post–the implication that the Holy Mother Church does NOT approve of the OF. Yes, She does.)

Of course you’re not supposed to pack up your beliefs because I’m OK you’re OK–whatever you said. I’m not being sarcastic here, but perhaps you’ve had a little too much caffeine today? I never EVER said anything about “I’m OK, You’re OK.” For the record, I believe that this philosophy is from Satan and totally wrong. Why are making so many bizarre assumptions from my criticism of Dauphin’s assumptions about the Mass form?

I didn’t tell you to “keep your mouth shut for 40 years.” I wasn’t even a Catholic!!! For gosh sakes, please don’t jump all over me for something I’ve never said to you or anyone, and never will say to anyone.

You said, “We are only just beginning to find “our” voice. I’m sorry if it disturbs you. “I’m OK; you’re OK” may be fine in your understanding. It’s not in mine.” **brotherholf–hey, buddy! It doesn’t disturb me at all!!! ** Are you possibly getting me mixed up with someone else?! I’m really kind of offended here that you are making me out to be such a stinkin’ liberal! That’s like calling Phylis Schlafly a liberal!

As for my comment about Protestant churches and candles-I don’t think you understand what I’m referring to, and I’m sorry for making a statement about something that might be a mystery to many Catholics. I’ll explain: in many Protestant churches today, there is something called the “emerging church movement,” or “alternative church movement.” In this movement, the pastors or lay worship leaders are introducting practices like chant, lectio divina, candles, written prayers, Latin hymns, kneeling and other postures and gestures, Sign of the Cross, etc.

The Protestant CRITICS of this “emerging” movement claim that these practices are taking PROTESTANT churches towards Catholicism. The CRITICS are urging Protestant Christians to avoid these ritualistic practices in churches, and to return to Protestant-style worship services, or else they are at risk of becoming Catholic.

I personally think the critics of emerging church practices are totally wrong. I believe that it will take a lot more than candles, gestures ,chant, Latin, etc. to turn Protestants into Catholics, and that’s why I made the statement that I did in my post.

I hope that clarifies my statement about candles.
 
I think the issue is how did we get to this point. I have a theory and that is that Mass has been cheapen because our idea of Church has been cheapen. I think we have become so removed from God, even those that attend Mass find it an inconvinence, so modernist priests and liturgical commitees press to make it more entertaining. We live in a society that abhors silence and solemnity, because then in the moments we are able to reflect of all our failings and God forbid you feel bad for sinning or not succeeding against any temptation (there is a remedy for that called Reconciliation, the most neglected sacrament). In doing so, they forget that Mass is supposed to be a solemn prayer to God. We think one hour in Church is all the Church we need, so we might as well jam it pack with stuff that would make any televangelist cringe. We think that everything that pertains to God should be condensed to one hour a week. There isn’t anything wrong with dancing per se, it just doesn’t belong in Mass, there is nothing wrong with having some Christian entertainment (like clowns or puppets), but it doesn’t belong in Mass. In addition, the last 50 years we have changed the image of Christ, from saving us from sin through His dolorous passion to a buddy Christ (being reduced in most cases from God to a mere social prophet, neglecting the other aspects of Jesus’ ministry). If the Church is going the way I think it is (that is becoming more traditional in orientation). I wonder if we will see a fracture in the coming years especially in America where liberal (I don’t like to use the “L” word, but there isn’t any way around) bishops and parishes that might be tempted to leave all together either go in union with the Anglicans or Old Catholics.
 
JRKH said:
I just want to interject a note of caution here.
I started this thread to get the answer to a specific term that I had heard often on these boards.
I have now received that answer.

I did not wish to start a debate on the subject, or worse, an argument.

The simple fact that EVERY CATHOLIC must keep in mind is that the OF and EF are both licit masses, and as such, so long as they are celebrated within the rubrics there is nothing “wrong” with them.

However - The Holy Father has expressed His concern over the lack of reverence in the mass. He has done so in a number of ways. The Moto Proprio being one, and saying the Pauline mass Ad Orientum is another.
EWTN has also been a source of good example in their masses, reintroducing a fair amount of Latin into the liturgy.

It is my hope that as this debate within the Church plays out that each side will see and learn from the other. Without endorsing any of the things I saw on the linked videos, I will say that certain inovations have their place in certain situations and specific groups. Certainly we can allow for certain variations in a mass celebrated at a youth retreat, or in a private home or something of that nature.
However I do not believe such things should be used during a “Normal Sunday Service” when those attending may or may not feel favorably toward them.

I hope that someday virtually every parish will offer both the EF and the OF side by side.

Peace
James
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Good post! I agree with you completely.
 
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