Just what is a Saint?

[DBT]

‘The Unitive Way’

And what is one of the key hallmarks of the Unitive Way? The ceasation of virtually all extraordinary phenomena like visions, locutions, revelations and so on. As grand as these might be, the reliance on and clinging to such gifts is just one of the many imperfections purged from the soul in the passive night of spirit that marks the entrance to the Unitive Way. Infinite glories lie beyond these “faint echos” of Him . . . but this is a lesson we can only see from the benefit of hindsight.

And it is from the viewpoint of what is taught about the Unitive Way that we can see that extraordinary phenomena is not part and parcel with what a mystic is all about . . . nor a Saint for that matter. No, it’s quite simple really . . . the heroic virtue born of the “ordinary” way of mysticism open to all (infused contemplation) that sometimes manifests itself in these “extraordinary” ways when we’re just taking our baby steps in the Illuminative Way to find Him. That is why the Saints teach these gifts are more like a “phase” we go through in our journey to the final destination . . . and never the end of the road itself.

No, in this Unitive Way a new and deeper understanding of Faith replaces the desire in the soul to “see.” For these blessed souls now have no need to see . . . they possess Him fully - and at will - in their very hearts. Heaven on earth to be sure.

Dave

BTW, my apologies Mandateman if you thought my comments were directed toward the defense of your friend and mentor. That was the last thing on my mind.

 

[DBT]

You know, I presume, about the three stages of the spiritual life? There are three stages, the purgative, the illuminative and the perfect. The saints, as a rule, lived in the way of the perfect. This level of holiness is astoundingly deep and all-encompassing, in many people almost completely devoid of venial sin. The purgative is the way of beginners, the way of detachment from the flesh, and the illuminative the way of the “proficient,” to use one of the normal terms. This person must continue detaching himself from the flesh, but also detachment of the spirit becomes a great emphasis. These stages of life are separated by great periods of suffering that purify the soul of its attachments. These steps are the normative way of spiritual growth, and the final product, the way of the perfect, is the life of saints. These are men and women so supernaturally consumed in Christ that they have ceased to live and Christ alone lives in and through them. They scarcely have venial sin left; it is an aberration, according to the sources I’ve read, rather than a common experience. Their humility is so deep that they don’t even see their radiant holiness, for their eyes are on God and they compare themselves with nothing sinful. The standard against which they compare themselves is absolutely perfect, so they always fall short, even though they scarcely do anything wrong. And, as you say, “small” imperfections are visible to them as hideous. Their sight is not impaired by sin as ours is.

Hi Lief -

I know your fondness for spiritual reading so here’s one more book recomendation to go along with the other that was given: Fr: Garrigou-Lagrange’s “Three Ages of the Interior Life.” This is a tour-de-force description of the purgative/illuminative/unitive ways:

christianperfection.info/

After citing the contributions of many of the leading mystical figures in Church history and showing how each can help us by way of model and example that we too can follow the universal path toward union with God, whom does he choose to show as the very embodiment of the Unitive Way (ie. living Saint)?

St. Therese of Liseaux and her Little Way

Quite instructive, really . . . when we consider the title of this thread: “Just what is a Saint?”

Dave

 

[mandateman]

Saints are holy people no doubt. But they are not perfect. They were just men and women just like all of us. They responded to their call with complete surrender. Then they fought the good fight against sin and their own nature.

Most catholic people have an impression of saints that is very much as seen through rose colored glasses. In the end what you see is not what was actually there. For a person to be canonized they do not require to be perfect. They are not required to be without sin. They must have shown consistant striving to practice virtue even heroicly. The must be free from mortal sin at death. They must be practitioners of perseverance and have openly publicly shown the three theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity. They do not need to be loved, liked or understood by their peers. They do not need to be popular. Many were not. They need to have performed three 1st degree miracles with living and three more by their intercession after their death. They need to demonstrate that they tried to live in grace. In short they were holy people not holy angels.

My purpose in attempting to put aside the rose colored glasses many catholic use to view saints and priests and popes is not to degrade them but to open the minds of catholic people to the fact that most saints are unknown. The holiest people may be the guy who just sold you a car, or the taxi driver who picked you up at the airport, the lady who served you food at McDonalds. Holy people living saints live among us. They always have. Perhaps the greatest saint alive today is the man who just wrote you out a traffic ticket.

We all need to start seeing life not through rose colored glasses not through the eyes of the world but through God’s eyes. He sees the absolute truth in every heart. He does not see the person we pretend to be or the persona we hide behind he sees us with all our faults and for some unbelievable reason He still loves us.

So the next time a beggar comes up to bum money dont assume he must be an alcoholic, assume he may be Our Blessed Lord, an angel or he may be the holiest person alive today. St. Joseph Laboure chose to be a beggar in the streets to show his contempt for the way in which the world and the people in the world chose to look at life.

By the way if you check you will find there have been a number of saints who were not any more meek then the average person. It is not necessary for canonization.

Another thing your absolutely right saints love people they may not like them but they do love them. The people may make them sick but they love them these are all virtues. To love the unlovable. How is a modern day saint supposed to feel when he or she attends a catholic dance in his or her parish and hears catholic people start off the evening by telling sacrilegious jokes about celibacy or against the pope. Then later he can listen after they have had a few drinks as these same people complain against church law and authority because they dont believe the pope is up to date on abortion or birth control etc. This is what really goes on. To a very holy person this behaviour is revolting. They have to go home filled with sorrow and disappointment and there they pray for the souls of these misguided people they may do penances for them this is how holy people become holy they do not change to accept error or sin they just take the sufferings due the sins of others on themselves as a responsibility. They do not pretend the people are doing fine.

 

[DBT]

Most catholic people have an impression of saints that is very much as seen through rose colored glasses.

Good morning mandateman and happy Sunday to you!

I think this is a big assumption you make . . . certainly for those here on these forums. The more we get to know the Saints the more we see their bumps, warts and human failings. More importantly, though, we see how they overcame these all to human imperfections through virtue and grace to reach that point of “perfection” the Church shows as possible in this earthly life.

So they are role models, guides, teachers and friends . . . given to us by the Church to show us the most direct path to Christ and helping us bypass the many spiritual and earthly minefields that block our ascent to Him. And for many of us who have been unable to find good quality guidance amongst the “living” . . . the Saints and Doctors often become our de-facto spiritual directors.

So I don’t view that as “rose colored glasses” . . . I see it as a great gift we should take advantage of

May His joy and peace be with you this day and all

Dave

 

[mandateman]

Yes I agree often I turn to the lives of the saints to seek guidance in the dark places in our life. For me they are my heros and mentors, as are the angels. I seek guidance from my guardian angel also. I have no doubt that all of these are valuable. I am meerly saying that the people around us who we may seem holy may be just as holy as any saint in heaven.

Saints do not have to be religious it is just easier to practice holiness in a controlled environment. This controlled environment does not make you holier then someone who achieves the same level of holiness within the world. Nor can you be equal.

Holy people live amoung us. It may not seem so but when Our Blessed Lord said, “Even a good man sins seven times a day.” He was talking about saints also.

Why has God permitted saints to visit purgatory or hell and bring back information about the souls they met there, except to warn us of how strict God really is. In one occasion St Theresa reported that the youngest person she found in hell was a girl of eight year old. She was damned to hell for once using Our Lords Name in vain. The Cure of Ars reported that souls of saints and beatified even bishops sought his prayer for release from purgatory. One Bishop had only moved his morning office occasionally to be said later in the day then was the custom due to his work load. He still said his office but not at the prescribed times. Perhaps to allow him to sleep in because of his heavy schedule. But the Bishop had no right to change the rule just for himself. For this he was sent to purgatory for so long that it was worthwhile to seek out the Cure of Ars for prayers.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Yes I agree often I turn to the lives of the saints to seek guidance in the dark places in our life. For me they are my heros and mentors, as are the angels. I seek guidance from my guardian angel also. I have no doubt that all of these are valuable. I am meerly saying that the people around us who we may seem holy may be just as holy as any saint in heaven.

Saints do not have to be religious it is just easier to practice holiness in a controlled environment. This controlled environment does not make you holier then someone who achieves the same level of holiness within the world. Nor can you be equal.

Holy people live amoung us. It may not seem so but when Our Blessed Lord said, “Even a good man sins seven times a day.” He was talking about saints also.

This is not a quote from our Lord. At least, not from the Bible. I wonder, do you think you might be misremembering Luke 17:4?

Jesus did, on the other hand, say, “Be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” He did not call people to something that cannot be done. Here, He called people to the Unitive relationship with God, the relationship where one is so perfect that one almost never commits venial sin. This was the relationship the saints, as a rule, gained here on Earth. It is one that almost any holy person you see on Earth has not achieved.

Why has God permitted saints to visit purgatory or hell and bring back information about the souls they met there, except to warn us of how strict God really is. In one occasion St Theresa reported that the youngest person she found in hell was a girl of eight year old. She was damned to hell for once using Our Lords Name in vain. The Cure of Ars reported that souls of saints and beatified even bishops sought his prayer for release from purgatory.

Yeah . . . I still would like a full quotation and complete sourcing for this, if you don’t mind. I have trouble believing it.

One Bishop had only moved his morning office occasionally to be said later in the day then was the custom due to his work load. He still said his office but not at the prescribed times. Perhaps to allow him to sleep in because of his heavy schedule. But the Bishop had no right to change the rule just for himself. For this he was sent to purgatory for so long that it was worthwhile to seek out the Cure of Ars for prayers.

Bishops can indeed spend time in Purgatory. They can even go to Hell- Judas is a good example of this.

 

[DBT]

Hey Lief -

I think that scripture passage is actually Old Testament, paraphrasing (not quoting): “The just man falls seven times a day.”

St. John of the Cross uses this in his teaching in “The Ascent.” The term “just man” is an Old Testament connotation for what we think of today as Saint. The “falls,” though, are not sin (mortal or even venial) . . . but imperfections. In St. John’s teaching it is largely presumed the soul well along in the Illuminative Way and heading toward the Unitive Way has an abhorrance for venial sin and avoids it at all costs.

The souls downfall in its march toward union with God are it’s habitual imperfections . . . those little things done as *force of habit *that so preoccupy mind and heart that recollection (union) is not possible. These are imperfections we consciously “choose.” A prime example of an habitual imperfection St. John cites is a talkative nature that draws us repeatedly into idle conversations.

There will, however, probably remain in even the most holy souls all sorts of little imperfections that just sort of “happen” . . . the result of our fallen nature, quirks in personality, our general makeup and so on. We don’t necessarily choose these . . . we more or less can’t help it.

Hence the meaning as I understand it of “the just man falls seven times a day.”

Dave

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Ah, thanks for the explanation and reference, DBT .

And thanks for the book suggestion and link too. I’m sure I’ll enjoy it. I skipped to the parts about spiritual direction and started there, and I wholeheartedly agree with it. I so need a spiritual director . . . I’ll find one. I’m glad I’ve got a couple substitutes to learn from, prior to getting a full-time spiritual director.

Sorry for my misunderstanding and mistake about the scripture passage you were thinking of, mandateman.

 

[mandateman]

Exact quote, Mt. 6:12), for even the “just man falls seven times a day” I said that Our Blessed Lord said a Good Man instead of a just man. But I still feel that the quote means the same thing.

 

[mandateman]

I absolutely agree that the holy person fears sin. There are cycles where one is forced to practice various virtues in our heavenly school. Sometime you can get to where you fear nothing but sin. Though no matter how much we abhor sin we are still prone to it by nature. Saints are not canonized because the church is stating they are not even free of venial sin. This is not a condition or a teaching of the church that a saint must be free from venial sin for some period before death but they have to have been practicing the faith seriously for the last ten years of their lives.

Oddly enough it still holds true that when you are being frustrated by life and someone just doing their job comes along and you take it out on them that they may be a hidden saint. I think it a wise practice to treat everyone as you would our lord or an angel or a saint. Once and a while you’ll be right.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I absolutely agree that the holy person fears sin. There are cycles where one is forced to practice various virtues in our heavenly school. Sometime you can get to where you fear nothing but sin. Though no matter how much we abhor sin we are still prone to it by nature. Saints are not canonized because the church is stating they are not even free of venial sin. This is not a condition or a teaching of the church that a saint must be free from venial sin for some period before death but they have to have been practicing the faith seriously for the last ten years of their lives.

I don’t think you could show me a single saint that was average or normal in their faith life. All of them were extraordinary in the highest degree. Which isn’t to say we can’t become so too. But it does mean we have people to look up to, something to aspire to. We can look at them and see how much further we have to go, and as we grow in passion to get there we’ll hurtle to the heights! That’s part of the nature of their being a “crowd of witnesses.”

I doubt that there were many canonized saints that missed the “Unitive” state of relationship with God in their lives on Earth. All the saints I’ve read about certainly were already in the “way of the perfect” before death. The main ones I can think of that might not have been at the heights already when they died are the martyrs, for martyrdom has a tendency to “fast-forward” someone to the top of unity with God all within a very short space of time. Yet to be devout enough to choose martyrdom requires having an extremely strong faith life already, so there also, I don’t know.

Oddly enough it still holds true that when you are being frustrated by life and someone just doing their job comes along and you take it out on them that they may be a hidden saint. I think it a wise practice to treat everyone as you would our lord or an angel or a saint. Once and a while you’ll be right.

Good point!