Just what is a Saint?

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Oh I never meant to suggest otherwise, I was mearly offering the simplest and most concise answer to the question. I did so in part, because it truely helps explain what exactly the church means when it says “you should all be striving for sainthood”. Yes we should look up to them as role models, yes we should pray for their intercession, NO, we should never think of them as something speacial that we can not be 🙂 We can, and should be saints.

In fact just last week i went over all this with my CCD class 🙂
Okay, that’s all great :). Thanks for clarifying for me!
 
Speaking in general terms, and not specific about anyone in particular, miracles are not a sign of holiness, and ought not be held up as so. Neither should people be encouraged to seek them. There are tons of prayers already from people who claim that the grace of winning the lottery will be a boon to everyone around them, and seeking miraculous powers can be rationalized by the seekers just as easily.

A saint is a friend of God who seeks to do the will of God.
 
I think my point is that there is nothing about a person being canonized that means they are holier then someone who has not been canonized. If you read the The Way of Divine Love, Sister Josepha points out that God always keeps at least 12 Divine Victims in the world at any given time and they are generally never known to anyone.

Holiness and canonization are not measured with rulers. There are some holy men and woman whom God choses to make public and we call them saints. There are probably many more people who may even be holier who will never be known until we are in heaven. I do not think it is an injustice if we assume everyone who is in heaven is a saint. Perhaps we should even have a feastday for these unknown saints.
 
" I measure a saint by the measure of the church," one response. That would mean that until St Francis was canonized he was held as suspect of false holiness and that is absurd. St Francis was a Saint before and after his death the church by canonization only show they figured out what the people his witnesses already knew.

The church has no capacity to know who is holy except for those pointed out by God publicly. The vast majority of holy people we will meet in heaven.
 
As has been explained to me (thanks EWTN, several host) a Saint is nothing more than someone who is now actually in heaven. Cannonized Saints are those souls whom we on earth are sure, are in heaven.
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They also are shining examples for how we should live our lives! The Church canonizes them partly so we know to appeal for their intercession and partly to give us more examples for what to believe and how to live. It is particularly important to heed the teachings of the Doctors of the Church, for the teachings these saints have been given the Church’s special blessing.
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I think my point is that there is nothing about a person being canonized that means they are holier then someone who has not been canonized.
Yes there is: A person who is canonized is in Heaven.
The rest of us are just mumbling along, trying the best we can…
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mandateman:
Holiness and canonization are not measured with rulers. There are some holy men and woman whom God choses to make public and we call them saints. There are probably many more people who may even be holier who will never be known until we are in heaven. I do not think it is an injustice if we assume everyone who is in heaven is a saint. Perhaps we should even have a feastday for these unknown saints.
All Saints’ Day is the feast day for all unknown saints. **That **is what the whole day is for.
 
There is far too much assumptions of error in this type of communication. All the actual Holy people I know only set out to love God. The rest is His doing. I have read the lives of many saints and all saint have to deal with the supernatural. To be canonized a person must work three first degree miracles while alive and three more after death that can be attributed to their intercession. The mean they must have been involved with the supernatural.

I myself have worked at least three first degree miracles just as absolutely as did canonized saints it is not us but God who performs the miracle but due to our request to assist another soul that is intercession.

Why would anyone here think bad each time anything is mentioned. First that in my determination of another character that I would not look for virtue only miracles, or only mysticism. Do all catholic people assume that everyone else is incapable of having a mind that searches for truth but them or that we are all first graders in faith.

You should be talking more about your life then trying to analyse others. Without the grace from God you cannot even know yourself let alone another person. All we think we know is illusion unless the truth is revealed to us by God.

We are catholic people at least in my training are supposed to begin all things in charity. Keeping an open mind is about knowing that there is people who try to confuse and mislead us not assuming that everyone is that is being paranoid.

By the way after 52 years being a chosen soul and watching how people are I can tell you most people who claim special gifts never exhibit the virtues and miracles to back them up. You can claim that a person who is working miracles is walking a dangerous path but they said the same about Our Lord. If someone is working first degree miracles that is a pretty good sign they are on the right path.
 
I’m not sure why there’s so much seeming resistance to MMs claims. Even if he turned out not to be the real thing, God can certainly work in any of us in the way described if He so chooses. The people I’ve known who’ve received such blessings never aspired to them-God just opted to work in those people the way He did according to His wisdom. He’s the Potter, we’re the clay. In any case, I can see why CAF has placed limitations on this private revelation stuff-maybe there’s no way to discuss the matter without running into problems.
 
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Yes there is: A person who is canonized is in Heaven.
The rest of us are just mumbling along, trying the best we can…

All Saints’ Day is the feast day for all unknown saints. **That **is what the whole day is for.
And now for some Catholic Trivia

Q: Who was the very first Cannonized Saint, and who cannonized him?

A: One of the two theives Crusified with Christ, he was cannonized by Christ him self while he was still alive, and is the only saint cannonized while still alive.

drbo.org/chapter/49023.htm
41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil. 42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
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I thank all responders who text signs of being open minded. We are not all just capable of being saints but indeed it is divinely demanded of us. “Be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.”

Answer me this who in their right mind would come to a forum to discuss the supernatural and mystical events of their lives for the purpose of getting spiritual direction from the intranet. What would qualify all the analysers to think they are capable of spiritual direction of a chosen soul who experiences supernatural and mystical events on a daily basis.

I do apologize to the sheriffs of rhetoric that I have occasionally mis-catagorized some supernatual events as mystical or mytical as supernatural. I was unaware of these labels having been declared dogmatic. If I meant here to discuss intellectually the events of the lives of the saints and not my own I suppose I would have sought out the proper authorities for these discussions. I thought I was primarily praising God for the work he has begun in me which continues to grow. I also believe that in the sharing of the miraculous events in the lives of common normal lay persons that there would develop a comradeship that we are all in this together. To let lay people know that holiness is not reserved to religious life. Whenever an individual begins to follow their heart and attend daily mass and communion and maybe cut out sporting events to spend time in prayer, they are immediately treated as though this is a sign them must become religious. But single or married we are all called to holiness. Dont be scarred off because people mistake your love for God as a call to vocation. Love for God is the center of all life that will continue.

If I paid attention to texts that automatically assume the worst of all other authors I would argue that they attempt to take the spirit out of spirituality. Not everyone was called to mystical experiences, supernatural experience or to work miracles. These do not make or mean that the individual is more holy then anyone else but to automatically be suspicious of everyone that has them is from pride also. It is a type of prejudice because you may not have been called to these forms of learning and character development by God maybe you dont need it.

I was always taught that catholic people first assume the good will of other catholics until they do something obviously in error. Myself if I then did see error I would dismiss the part that was error an accept whatever part of the person that demonstrates truth. What is at stake in these immediate attacks against peoples honor and faithfulness as a result of them saying something you dont know about or are only intellecutally aware of is the loss of kindness. Kindness is a debt we owe all persons.

Before chosing to reject others using a rigid closed minded attitude as if everything people experience from God can be labled and added up like a column of numbers is that in your choice of how to view and treat others we have already been warned about by Christ. “How you weigh so you shall be weighed, how you measure so you shall be measured.”
 
I’m not sure why there’s so much seeming resistance to MMs claims.
The resistance is not to the claims but in the manner in which it is being discussed. A few posts ago the OP put forth the notion (a good one I might add) that as we age “balance” comes more and more into play as we grow in wisdom. I think readers, though, are seeing precisely the opposite of what the OP intends . . . a profound imbalance. Even those with little exposure to the teachings of the Saints intuitively sense that something is amiss . . . they can just feel it. Those fully grounded in Church teaching know so.

But to raise the inconvenient truths our Doctors show us . . . is to be deemed “rigid.” :rolleyes:

And here’s a thought to be tossed on top of the woodpile. Why is it assumed that just because someone chooses to address these matters through the voice of the Saints and Doctors that they somehow lack experience and are trying to be a “sheriff of rhetoric” . . . on top of simply being “rigid?” :rolleyes: Is that the way a mystic talks?

On the contrary, maybe the wisdom and balance of such an approach is really an indication of how much experience they do have:)

Lastly, here’s a simple way to discuss all this . . . less experience more fruit.

I’m still waiting for the fruit.

Dave:)
 
. . . and just a few examples of the type of fruit that would make for an easier going. Here’s my personal list of “signs and wonders” I’ve been looking for in these past threads:
  • Kindness in word toward all posters . . . especially those who challenge
  • Patience and understanding toward those who disagree . . . rather than irritation
  • Openness to learn from everyone . . . even those we view our lessers
  • Mortification of our all to human failings that want to build ourselves up by tearing others down . . . through ridicule, name calling, contempt and rejection of opposing views
  • Detachment toward the gifts recieved that render moot the need to defend and explain oneself . . . a mystic doesn’t care what anyone else thinks
  • Humility that acknowledges the true intimacy of these personal encounters with God and desires them to remain hidden between the partners . . . content to let one’s virtue shine forth before others as proof of the relationship
  • Wisdom that recognizes human parallels to the Divine. For example, one can sing the praises of your spouse without ever having to share in a public way that which is between just the two of you. We know this in the natural realm . . . but not the supernatural?
  • Docility toward Church teaching that, at times, is quite contrary to one’s personal experience
  • Light that shines on others rather than self . . . few mystics and Saints are fond of the word “I”
 
. . . and just a few examples of the type of fruit that would make for an easier going. Here’s my personal list of “signs and wonders” I’ve been looking for in these past threads:
  • Kindness in word toward all posters . . . especially those who challenge
  • Patience and understanding toward those who disagree . . . rather than irritation
  • Openness to learn from everyone . . . even those we view our lessers
  • Mortification of our all to human failings that want to build ourselves up by tearing others down . . . through ridicule, name calling, contempt and rejection of opposing views
  • Detachment toward the gifts recieved that render moot the need to defend and explain oneself . . . a mystic doesn’t care what anyone else thinks
  • Humility that acknowledges the true intimacy of these personal encounters with God and desires them to remain hidden between the partners . . . content to let one’s virtue shine forth before others as proof of the relationship
  • Wisdom that recognizes human parallels to the Divine. For example, one can sing the praises of your spouse without ever having to share in a public way that which is between just the two of you. We know this in the natural realm . . . but not the supernatural?
  • Docility toward Church teaching that, at times, is quite contrary to one’s personal experience
  • Light that shines on others rather than self . . . few mystics and Saints are fond of the word “I”
These are excellent! 👍
  • Wisdom that recognizes human parallels to the Divine. For example, one can sing the praises of your spouse without ever having to share in a public way that which is between just the two of you. We know this in the natural realm . . . but not the supernatural?
That’s a really neat insight. I love parallels between human relationships and the Divine relationship, and I never thought of that one.
 
If anything, mystical experience brings with it an extreme disjoin of understanding between the mystic and those in normative society. While the former can understand the latter, the latter cannot ever understand the former. But at the same time there’s really no need to be understood, and certainly no need to seek out being understood or bewailing one’s fate about being misunderstood.
 
It is too bad that some people feel it is for me to be humble under attack but not okay for me to criticize error. In fact if we all read our cathecism under the articles on works of corporal and spiritual mercy to point out error assuming the person just doesnt understand. Sometime people need a wake up call.

If the criticism of my text was only criticism and not actually sins against charity then they would not elicit a response designed to enlighter whether the person choses to be or not.

I was not upset about remarks about me but against holy people who have passed on to the kingdom of God and are not here to defend themselves and more important I do not like to see fellow catholic persons practicing so little charity and believe sometimes you need to point out a persons failure with the very weapons they are using.

I advocate if you have tried to make peace with a bully and fail it may be necessary to use force to solve the problem even if the force is to point out obvious truth in a blatant way but this is not sin unless my main intention was to hurt their feeling and not to get through the hardness of their hearts.

But lets not play the legal game that if all you said is you dont believe a word someone says but didnt use the word liar that you havent called the person a liar. Harsh statements made against other people not the writer are who are totally unknown is a sin against charity. This type of attitude that people should not have their public sins pronounced is the bullys way to give themselves the advantage. They tell you that you cant report them and then beat you up. If you beat them up they complain to the teacher every time.
 
Now back to saints. Saints for the most part are outsiders in our church. Many were rejected by the normal catholic people and often thought to be crazy or fanatics by the standard catholics of their day. After they get canonized then the people of their region often take them into their hearts.

Many saint were not very likable. The idea that saints were all kind, meek and sweet people is a belief for children because we have many saints canonized for virtue who didnt get along well with people at all, they just tolerated them.

St Thomas Aquinas became so stout that a whole had to be carved into the table to fit his stomach so that his arms could reach the table one of this biographers reports. Saints do not have to be Clarabell the clown or Mr. Rodgers. Many of the hermits of the early church were both escaping the frustration of the lukewarm while securing solitude.

Perhaps much of the holiness and virtues of saints came from them having to associate with the people who frustrated and sickened them by their behavior. There are more interior lepers then exterior ones.

But for the love of God and for mankind the saint takes on himself their burdens and accepts sufferings and devotes himself to prayer on behalf of and intercedes for people he could hardly stand for five minutes.

When I was young many monasteries warned you that if you enter religious life you will not find the religious perfect only human even sinners some great sinners but humans who are joined in the service of God. If a person becomes holy he or she is much more sensitive to the sins around him. Padre Pio as a baby cried if anyone used bad language.

Some saints have gifts so that they can smell or see the sin of others it would be very hard to remain in their presence. Meekness is only one virtue and some saints demonstrate it well. St Francis would have his monks beaten for breaking a fast.

If you expect all holy people to be perfect while they are yet on earth then you need time to mature. All of us are human all of us are sinners. The Cure of Ars reported that when he was taken to purgatory or had souls in purgatory come to him to request prayers some of them were canonized saints and beatified souls.
 
Now back to saints. Saints for the most part are outsiders in our church. Many were rejected by the normal catholic people and often thought to be crazy or fanatics by the standard catholics of their day. After they get canonized then the people of their region often take them into their hearts.

Many saint were not very likable. The idea that saints were all kind, meek and sweet people is a belief for children because we have many saints canonized for virtue who didnt get along well with people at all, they just tolerated them.
They didn’t just tolerate people. They expressed love for people, whether they felt it or not, and where they expressed it, the feelings ultimately followed. They were God’s love in the world.
St Thomas Aquinas became so stout that a whole had to be carved into the table to fit his stomach so that his arms could reach the table one of this biographers reports. Saints do not have to be Clarabell the clown or Mr. Rodgers. Many of the hermits of the early church were both escaping the frustration of the lukewarm while securing solitude.

Perhaps much of the holiness and virtues of saints came from them having to associate with the people who frustrated and sickened them by their behavior. There are more interior lepers then exterior ones.
They weren’t around people they “had” to be around. They chose to be around lepers.

I’m sorry if I’m coming across as overly critical right now, but I really don’t think you’re understanding how God’s love moved the saints.
But for the love of God and for mankind the saint takes on himself their burdens and accepts sufferings and devotes himself to prayer on behalf of and intercedes for people he could hardly stand for five minutes.
Sort of. Yes, they could find people immensely irritating, and they did pray and offer up sufferings for these people. However, they learned to feel God’s love for them. They didn’t remain stagnate in their inability to stand these people; they came to love them deeply. This certainly came across to me strongly in St. Faustina’s Diary.
When I was young many monasteries warned you that if you enter religious life you will not find the religious perfect only human even sinners some great sinners but humans who are joined in the service of God. If a person becomes holy he or she is much more sensitive to the sins around him. Padre Pio as a baby cried if anyone used bad language.
Well said! 🙂
Some saints have gifts so that they can smell or see the sin of others it would be very hard to remain in their presence. Meekness is only one virtue and some saints demonstrate it well. St Francis would have his monks beaten for breaking a fast.
This did not indicate a lack of meekness. He was in charge of his monks, and if they made the fast as part of a vow to God or an obligation of their order, they had a responsibility to hold it and St. Francis had a responsibility to establish order.

All the saints demonstrated great meekness, eventually. Many were prideful earlier in their lives but lost that pride as time went on. One can see this, reading their stories.

Without humility, no one can enter Heaven, and while all the saints sinned in life, they were certainly all extraordinarily humble by the end of their lives.
If you expect all holy people to be perfect while they are yet on earth then you need time to mature. All of us are human all of us are sinners. The Cure of Ars reported that when he was taken to purgatory or had souls in purgatory come to him to request prayers some of them were canonized saints and beatified souls.
Would you mind citing a source and page number (or website) for that? While this is theoretically possible, I find it somewhat hard to believe.
 
It’s weird to me how your post is full of things that try to make the saints look less in some way, ignoring the heroic virtue they lived, which we are all called to aspire to, in order to emphasize failings, or supposed failings. They lived an ideal Christian life that we are not living now, but which we need to aspire to. They are witnesses for us, a light that shines in the darkness. We need to try to emulate them, to learn to live Christian perfection by following in their footprints. Our goal should not be to bring them down to our level :).

You know, I presume, about the three stages of the spiritual life? There are three stages, the purgative, the illuminative and the perfect. The saints, as a rule, lived in the way of the perfect. This level of holiness is astoundingly deep and all-encompassing, in many people almost completely devoid of venial sin. The purgative is the way of beginners, the way of detachment from the flesh, and the illuminative the way of the “proficient,” to use one of the normal terms. This person must continue detaching himself from the flesh, but also detachment of the spirit becomes a great emphasis. These stages of life are separated by great periods of suffering that purify the soul of its attachments. These steps are the normative way of spiritual growth, and the final product, the way of the perfect, is the life of saints. These are men and women so supernaturally consumed in Christ that they have ceased to live and Christ alone lives in and through them. They scarcely have venial sin left; it is an aberration, according to the sources I’ve read, rather than a common experience. Their humility is so deep that they don’t even see their radiant holiness, for their eyes are on God and they compare themselves with nothing sinful. The standard against which they compare themselves is absolutely perfect, so they always fall short, even though they scarcely do anything wrong. And, as you say, “small” imperfections are visible to them as hideous. Their sight is not impaired by sin as ours is.

I delight in having such role models present for me to look toward and emulate! If I was looking at the saints as people no different from me, then I would have no further to go. That would be depressing. I want as much of God as I can possibly have, and to look at people who experienced Divine Union, who experienced the heights of virtue and love, is greatly inspiring!
 
I simply want to share a true story with you.

My spiritual director in college Fr. Richard was the pioneer charismatic priest in the country I originally came from. He has conducted numerous healing sessions to help people from all walks of life. Talking about miracles, many people were healed physically, psychologically and spiritually through Fr. Richard’s laying hands and intercessory prayers.

When he passed away in 1999, I flew back to attend his funeral. Forty priests said the funeral Mass together. Catholics, Protestants, Protestant ministers, Buddhists, Buddhists monks, non-believers packed the largest Catholic church in the city. Father has never turned away anyone who sought for his help. He was so compassionate to help everyone who suffered. He prayed the healing prayers for Catholics as well as non-Catholics. We saw so many fruits at his farewell Mass.

During the funeral Mass, we were listening to a tape recording of Fr. Richard. A holy man like him, we only heard him keep on saying he was a sinner, a sinner being loved so much by God. It was very moving to hear a person who performed multiple mighty deeds, yet remained so humble.

All saints share such a quality. They never thought they were saints or compared their works to that of the canonized saints. All saints’ focus is on God and the glory of God. They never looked at themselves, counted the miracles they performed, sought recognition, or craved for a pat on the back, not even once. No matter how many mighty deeds a saint has performed when they were alive, they knew they were only doing what a faithful servant was supposed to do.

Just what is a Saint? I think the true story of Fr. Richard tells a lot.
 
You know, I presume, about the three stages of the spiritual life? There are three stages, the purgative, the illuminative and the perfect. The saints, as a rule, lived in the way of the perfect. This level of holiness is astoundingly deep and all-encompassing, in many people almost completely devoid of venial sin. The purgative is the way of beginners, the way of detachment from the flesh, and the illuminative the way of the “proficient,” to use one of the normal terms. This person must continue detaching himself from the flesh, but also detachment of the spirit becomes a great emphasis. These stages of life are separated by great periods of suffering that purify the soul of its attachments. These steps are the normative way of spiritual growth, and the final product, the way of the perfect, is the life of saints. These are men and women so supernaturally consumed in Christ that they have ceased to live and Christ alone lives in and through them. They scarcely have venial sin left; it is an aberration, according to the sources I’ve read, rather than a common experience. Their humility is so deep that they don’t even see their radiant holiness, for their eyes are on God and they compare themselves with nothing sinful. The standard against which they compare themselves is absolutely perfect, so they always fall short, even though they scarcely do anything wrong. And, as you say, “small” imperfections are visible to them as hideous. Their sight is not impaired by sin as ours is.
An excellent post, Lief. Fr, Tanqueray’s “The Spiritual Life” (back into print!) calls the latter ‘The Unitive Way’ by the way.
 
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