Just who are the Copts

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Zabdi_Premjit

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Greetings!

I want to talk about those Egyptians! As a college student, I have met MANY Copts, more than I would ever expect to in such a short time in America. We all know the Church of Alexandria contributed greatly to Christian thought. Also, my three favorite saints happen to belong to that jurisdiction:
  • Saint Antonios the Great - A true giant in the world of Christian asceticism, and a highly admired figure among those of us who often feel like all this materialism is overrated and vain. (Though we aren’t quite faithful/dedicated enough to give it up. :o )
  • Saint Athanasios the Great - That great defender of the faith, the chief guardian of Orthodoxy at the Nicene Council, and my patron saint. 😃
  • Saint Kyrillos of Alexandria - Another great defender of the faith, the guardian of the true teachings regarding the unity of the natures in Christ.
Also, I was baptised on the Feast of Sts. Athanasios and Kyrillos, and the day after the Feast of St. Antonios: a blessing and sign from God, especially considering my religious background. Being raised as a Oneness Pentecostal, I was taught to revere the Patripassians, Modalists, and Sabellians. The concept of the Trinity and its adherents were my enemies. Plus, the “single hypostasis” theory led to issues with explaining many acts of Christ, usually resolved with explanations that carried strong undertones of Nestorianism. My Church History professor even strove to instill in us pride for believing in Nestorianism! It wasn’t hidden either. She told us point blank: “We are Nestorians”. That being said, you can probably see why I respect these saints.

Anyways, since God keeps placing these members of the Alexandrian Church in my life, I would like to learn more about it. What can you tell me about the Alexandrian Church?
  • What are the distinguishing features of their theological thought?
  • What emphases do they have?
  • How are their liturgies, service, etc. unique?
  • What unique practices/customs do they follow?
  • What unique ascetic traditions do they follow?
  • How does their thought, perspectice, and practices compare to those of the Byzantine/Orthodx tradition?
  • Anything else!
Thank You!

Peace to all,
Athanasios

P.S. - I’d be more detailed, but I am literally falling asleep while typing…
 
Anyways, since God keeps placing these members of the Alexandrian Church in my life, I would like to learn more about it. What can you tell me about the Alexandrian Church?
Since you’ve met so many, why don’t you ask them yourself?

This might be a good place to start:

copticchurch.net/
 
Why did Euch. post a link to nestorianism? Copts are Miaphysites, not nestorians.

One thing I know about Copts is their unique Christological formula promoted by St. Cyril of Alexandria, the one Nature of the Incarnate Word, rather then the diphysitism of the Roman and Greek churches. There are a few Coptic members on here, surely they can talk more about it.
 
Cluny said:
Anyways, since God keeps placing these members of the Alexandrian Church in my life, I would like to learn more about it. What can you tell me about the Alexandrian Church?
Since you’ve met so many, why don’t you ask them yourself?

This might be a good place to start:

copticchurch.net/
Click to expand...
I don’t know them that well. I don’t want to just randomly go up to them and ask random questions. I would think that’d be awkward for a lot of people. :yup:

Thanks for the link! 😃
 
Formosus said:
Why did Euch. post a link to nestorianism? Copts are Miaphysites, not nestorians.

One thing I know about Copts is their unique Christological formula promoted by St. Cyril of Alexandria, the one Nature of the Incarnate Word, rather then the diphysitism of the Roman and Greek churches. There are a few Coptic members on here, surely they can talk more about it.
Click to expand...
I think both Chalcedonians and Non-Chalceodonians base their Christological terminology and thought on St. Cyril, but I understand what you mean. Two physis uniting to become miaphysis.
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
Any Copts out there? 🙂
Click to expand...
Yes I’ve been a Coptic convert for almost 5 years. I’ll try to answer your questions later.

Ok I’ll start some place easy.

Fasting. We fast a few days more then they do, more then any other Church. But we don’t have as many regulations. Oil isn’t banned for instance. Our fasts are more simple. We don’t have all those bonus days. Where you get to eat cheese, wine etc. on a certain feast day.

We have only two type of fasts. Major - vegetarian/vegan and minor ones that allow seafood. So you can have falafels and humus and other kind of fried foods with our fasts where the Byzantines usually have to omit those. (You could have a Catholic style fish frye for Advent for instance).

But other aspects of fasting are the same or similar. Except we are suppose to fast 9 hours before Communion while some of the EO only do 3!

Our church calendar is highly funky. The original calendar was invented by the architecht of the “Step Pyramid” 3000 years or so. We also have chants tunes we sing that date back to Pharoahic times.

While we use Greek letters, we also still have the hieroglyphic alphabet. It however a rare form, but some old documents are still written in it. And the same goes for the spoken language. It’s mostly dead but there are still some families in Egypt that speak Coptic (as in Egyptian and not Egyptized Koine Greek).

Note two or so of the letters of the Russian alphabet came from Coptic alphabet (they were special sounds not found in regular Koine alphabet).
 
Some of the things we do look more Latin in appearance, then Greek Orthodox

Like the way we make the sign of the Cross.

The priest where’s a hat that looks like a Latin mitre.

Our patriarch is called Pope (we were the first to use that title for our patriarch).

Their also is a peculiar water throwing ritual at the end of the service. Talking to some RC relatives they say their is something very like it in the Latin Church (The Latins say this is "to remind you of your baptism). This is something I haven’t seen in any EO church.

There are certain artwork. Like decorative crosses that look Irish Catholic (This because the Irish adopted some Coptic stylings when they studied monasticism in Egypt. As well as had some Coptic missionaries over there.

The Coptic Agpeya (prayer book of the hours) (See link below). Was the first monastic set hours of prayer and was the model for the Latin and other Orthodox prayer rules.

agpeya.org/index.html

And talking about Latinist things, their have been some unofficial movements that have happened. Like besides having icongraphy remiscant of the Byzantines complete with Iconostasis, there has been a trend in also using a good bit of RC Catholic art as well. Some of this seems to be related to the fact the Coptic Church took over a few formerly Latin rite churches. But Copts also seem to be a bit pragmatic and eclectic about church art more then the EO I’ve seen. (I’ve seen for instance a RC style painting of Mary and Christ used as the display Icon for feasts and the procession at my Orthodox church and I’m pretty sure no Eastern Orthodox church would ever do this! Such an attitude is more Eastern Catholic then what you would see the EO ever do).
 
I would also have to comment on the unique social climate of the Church that I think is really as important then some of the other things you asked.

I would really encourage you to visit a local Coptic church. One thing Egyptians are really famous for is their hospitality. I would say when I first visited they rolled out the red carpet for me then the other 3 or so EO churches I previously visited. Their is something in their sociology after living under Sharia law for centuries where the Christian community is very close. I’ve seen some churches where there is a dividing line between the ethnics and the Americas, but I can honestly say each western visitor or convert is treated like a blood relative.

Unlike many EO churches which are pastored by convert priests, former Protestants or 2nd or 3 generation Americans, most of the Copts are more recent arrivals. So there can be less English then many of the American, Eastern Orthodox churches. The Copts do try to gear things as much as they can to English speakers. Most of the priests do speak English (having learned it in college or high school many years ago). We also have embraced Power point slide shows to give translation of the Coptic and Arabic parts of the service (My EO friends think this is tacky but I find it a godsend).

The Coptic church also in the last few years like some EC (like the Maronites)and EO churches has stopped seeing itself as purely an ethnic church. In the last 15 years has embarked on an Evangelism program for unchurched westerners that I think is similar to what I’ve seen the more active EO juridictions (like the Antiochians and OCA) do.

suscopts.org/evangelism/
 
Addai said:
Their also is a peculiar water throwing ritual at the end of the service. Talking to some RC relatives they say their is something very like it in the Latin Church (The Latins say this is "to remind you of your baptism). This is something I haven’t seen in any EO church.
Click to expand...
It’s done, but only rarely, in the Byzantine Rite. usually not for the whole congregation, but for specific persons receiving specific blessings. However, right after theophany, us Byzantines grab our bottle of Theophany water, and sprinkle our houses… We also drink the blessed theophany water when sick, mark our children with it when they are sick, etc.

And every time I’ve had an Icon blessed, the Icon, myself, and anyone nearby got hit with holy water, in both Ruthenian Catholic and Russian Orthodox parishes. (Not to mention then being “tapped” with it the Icon the sign of the cross!)

Sunday, a parishioner was being blessed prior to reporting for transport to Iraq. He was sprinkled with holy water. A couple of us nearby also got sprinkled.

Byzantines tend to be cautious in sprinkling with holy water, since generally, the stock is made one time a year, at Theophany, and then bottled for use at home and in the parish.
 
Addai said:
Yes I’ve been a Coptic convert for almost 5 years. I’ll try to answer your questions later.

Ok I’ll start some place easy.

Fasting. We fast a few days more then they do, more then any other Church. But we don’t have as many regulations. Oil isn’t banned for instance. Our fasts are more simple. We don’t have all those bonus days. Where you get to eat cheese, wine etc. on a certain feast day.

We have only two type of fasts. Major - vegetarian/vegan and minor ones that allow seafood. So you can have falafels and humus and other kind of fried foods with our fasts where the Byzantines usually have to omit those. (You could have a Catholic style fish frye for Advent for instance).
Click to expand...
Ah, so you can’t eat shellfish on major fasts? Shellfish is always allowed in Byzantine fasting.
Addai said:
But other aspects of fasting are the same or similar. Except we are suppose to fast 9 hours before Communion while some of the EO only do 3!
Click to expand...
Wow, I didn’t know some EO do three hours! Guess I learned something knew about my own Church. I always fast from midnight, which I actually thought was the minimum. I know some EO fast all of Saturday plus Sunday morning. I don’t think there’s any real rule about the time. 🤷
Addai said:
Our church calendar is highly funky. The original calendar was invented by the architecht of the “Step Pyramid” 3000 years or so. We also have chants tunes we sing that date back to Pharoahic times.
Click to expand...
That’s commendable that they’ve kept something alive for so long. Respect! 👍
Addai said:
While we use Greek letters, we also still have the hieroglyphic alphabet. It however a rare form, but some old documents are still written in it. And the same goes for the spoken language. It’s mostly dead but there are still some families in Egypt that speak Coptic (as in Egyptian and not Egyptized Koine Greek).

Note two or so of the letters of the Russian alphabet came from Coptic alphabet (they were special sounds not found in regular Koine alphabet).
Click to expand...
How different is “Egyptianized Koine Greek” from Coptic? I’ve read that about one third of the vocabulary of Coptic is of Greek origin.
 
Addai said:
Some of the things we do look more Latin in appearance, then Greek Orthodox

Like the way we make the sign of the Cross.

The priest where’s a hat that looks like a Latin mitre.

Our patriarch is called Pope (we were the first to use that title for our patriarch).

Their also is a peculiar water throwing ritual at the end of the service. Talking to some RC relatives they say their is something very like it in the Latin Church (The Latins say this is "to remind you of your baptism). This is something I haven’t seen in any EO church.

There are certain artwork. Like decorative crosses that look Irish Catholic (This because the Irish adopted some Coptic stylings when they studied monasticism in Egypt. As well as had some Coptic missionaries over there.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what an Irish Catholic crosses look like, but I love the Coptic Cross.
 
Addai said:
I would also have to comment on the unique social climate of the Church that I think is really as important then some of the other things you asked.

I would really encourage you to visit a local Coptic church. One thing Egyptians are really famous for is their hospitality. I would say when I first visited they rolled out the red carpet for me then the other 3 or so EO churches I previously visited. Their is something in their sociology after living under Sharia law for centuries where the Christian community is very close. I’ve seen some churches where there is a dividing line between the ethnics and the Americas, but I can honestly say each western visitor or convert is treated like a blood relative.

Unlike many EO churches which are pastored by convert priests, former Protestants or 2nd or 3 generation Americans, most of the Copts are more recent arrivals. So there can be less English then many of the American, Eastern Orthodox churches. The Copts do try to gear things as much as they can to English speakers. Most of the priests do speak English (having learned it in college or high school many years ago). We also have embraced Power point slide shows to give translation of the Coptic and Arabic parts of the service (My EO friends think this is tacky but I find it a godsend).

The Coptic church also in the last few years like some EC (like the Maronites)and EO churches has stopped seeing itself as purely an ethnic church. In the last 15 years has embarked on an Evangelism program for unchurched westerners that I think is similar to what I’ve seen the more active EO juridictions (like the Antiochians and OCA) do.

suscopts.org/evangelism/
Click to expand...
Yeah, from what I’ve seen, they do seem close-knit and hospitable. Overly so. Kind of creates subtle feelings of disunity sometime when I interact with them at Orthodox Christian Fellowship (OCF) events. (I think I just don’t like feeling like an outsider, especially since I’m technically not an outsider in the context of an OCF event…:p) Though, I’ve met non-ethnic Coptic Orthodox as well. They do appear to be adopted into the group.
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
Wow, I didn’t know some EO do three hours! Guess I learned something knew about my own Church. I always fast from midnight, which I actually thought was the minimum.

How different is “Egyptianized Koine Greek” from Coptic? I’ve read that about one third of the vocabulary of Coptic is of Greek origin.
Click to expand...
Yes I only know about the 3 hour thing from reading an internet slide show (Coptic Sunday School class presentation posted online) on Coptic to EO ecumenical talks. It was one of the top issues on the mind of the Copts just behind Chalcedon when it came to talking about re-uniting the two Churches. I will try to link that later (was trying to do so before but the search engines here and on the internet aren’t working so good with my key words).

As for Egyptized Koine Greek and Coptic there is no real linguistic relationship compare these sections of the liturgy of the hours some of it you will recognize much of it you won’t.

“Tenoo oasht emmok o piekhristos nem pekyot en aghathos nem pi epnevma ethowab je akee ak soati emmon nai nan”

(We worship You O Christ with Your Good Father and the Holy Spirit, for You have come and saved us.)

…

“Doxa Patri ke Eioa ke Agio Pnevmati”

Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

…

“Ke nin ke a ee ke ees toos e onas toan e oa noan ameen.”

(Now and forever and unto the ages of all ages, Amen.)

…

Kyrie Eleason (Lord have mercy 41 times)

…

If you hadn’t done so you should check out the link and notice the tonal differences in the chanting. There are audio samples by clicking on the megaphone icon.

agpeya.org/Prime/prime.html
 
Addai said:
Yes I only know about the 3 hour thing from reading an internet slide show (Coptic Sunday School class presentation posted online) on Coptic to EO ecumenical talks. It was one of the top issues on the mind of the Copts just behind Chalcedon when it came to talking about re-uniting the two Churches. I will try to link that later (was trying to do so before but the search engines here and on the internet aren’t working so good with my key words).
Click to expand...
Very interesting! I’ve never thought of fasting as a possible impediment to re-unification.
 
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