Just wondering about predestination

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I have a question on predestination. Are some people born predestined to do something and still have free will? What about Judas ? The betrayal had to take place for things to come to pass but does that mean he had no free will and was born to go to Hell for enternity no matter what ? Did he have a choice or was it made for him?

I am wondering if he had a choice and if not then it seems pretty sad and depressing to think a human being was created just for the purpose of going to Hell for eternity. I know prophecy had to be fullfilled but this still seems harsh.

I admit I did not grow up with much religion and am still trying to find my way. There is so much to learn and understand that it seems overwhelming at times and very confusing. I just pray each night that the Lord guides me in the right direction and helps me to understand more.
 
To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #600)
There is no “past” or “future” for God - he sees all time in an eternal "“now.” Thus, he knows what freewill choices you will make. But he only knows what you will freely choose to do - he does not compel you to do anything other than what you freely choose to do. He just happens to know what your freewill choices will be.

The idea of “predestination” in the sense that our eventual fate (heaven/hell) is out of our control is an invention of protestants (John Calvin was one of the big proponents of this flawed theology).
 
Well, first, Christ chose Judas and called him. I think Christ could have found anyone who would probably betray him. Christ knew this and orchestrated it in that way. I think that Christ took advantage of these situations instead forcing the people to do this and that. Christ knew that if he told the truth and told everyone He was God He would be killed. He knew that Judas would be called by 30 pieces of silver and be greedy. Christ just knew what type of people he surrounded himself with. It’s either that or Judas was possessed but I don’t think Satan would have been that stupid.
 
Well, first, Christ chose Judas and called him.
And, in fact, that bit of the Catechism that I cited (#600) goes on to specifically address this particular situation. Here is #600 in its entirety:
To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. " (**Acts 4:27-28; cf. **Ps 2:1-2). For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness. (Cf. Mt 26:54; Jn 18:36; 19:11; Acts 3:17-18), (CCC 600)
 
And, in fact, that bit of the Catechism that I cited (#600) goes on to specifically address this particular situation. Here is #600 in its entirety:
Sorry about that, didn’t see it, I guess we were both posting at the same time :D.
 
I am simple minded so let me get this correct. Predestination as people think doesn’t really exist. Its just that God already knows what free will choices we will make before we make them because he has seen his plan and creation and how everything will play out before it does. Because time is a man made thing to help our minds comprehend the passing of events. To him time doesnt exist, everything is just is?
 
I have a question on predestination. Are some people born predestined to do something and still have free will? What about Judas ? The betrayal had to take place for things to come to pass but does that mean he had no free will and was born to go to Hell for enternity no matter what ? Did he have a choice or was it made for him?

I am wondering if he had a choice and if not then it seems pretty sad and depressing to think a human being was created just for the purpose of going to Hell for eternity. I know prophecy had to be fullfilled but this still seems harsh.

I admit I did not grow up with much religion and am still trying to find my way. There is so much to learn and understand that it seems overwhelming at times and very confusing. I just pray each night that the Lord guides me in the right direction and helps me to understand more.
The Church specifically teaches that nobody is predestined to go to Hell.
 
Sorry didnt notice the part about Hell. God predestines no one to Hell. The only destiny we have is the calling found in all of us to go to Heaven. But we can deny even that. So, don’t think your life is predetermined, you are only called to go to Heaven. The rest is up to you.
 
There is no “past” or “future” for God - he sees all time in an eternal "“now.” Thus, he knows what freewill choices you will make. But he only knows what you will freely choose to do - he does not compel you to do anything other than what you freely choose to do. He just happens to know what your freewill choices will be.

The idea of “predestination” in the sense that our eventual fate (heaven/hell) is out of our control is an invention of protestants (John Calvin was one of the big proponents of this flawed theology).
To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #600)
David, is this the St. Boethius conclusion of Perceptual Divine Foreknowledge? His conclusion is Catholic doctrine?

OP: Of predestination, I suggest St. Aquinas writings on the subject. He makes the point of predestination that all are predestined to God, but it is ultimately our free will that accepts that predestined relationship or denies it.
 
I have a question on predestination. Are some people born predestined to do something and still have free will? What about Judas ? The betrayal had to take place for things to come to pass but does that mean he had no free will and was born to go to Hell for enternity no matter what ? Did he have a choice or was it made for him?
God predestines the ends and the means to those ends since time, and therefore the future, is His creation. “Free will” is a term loaded with all kinds of philosophical baggage, and since the Bible nowhere defines it, I think we’d be better off using “human responsibility” instead. The Bible teaches that human beings are fallen, that they are slaves of sin and that their most dominate inclination is toward evil. Fallen man, therefore, chooses in accordance with his most natural and strongest inclinations–that is–according to his fallen nature. That said, your questions presuppose that there is a necessary either/or between human responsibility and Divine Sovereignty, when in fact God can and does use the choices of human beings to accomplish His divine purposes. In the case of Judas or Pharaoh or anybody, for that matter, God can use them for His own purposes without violating their autonomy.

So, yes, Judas had a choice. No one one forced him to betray Jesus. He did this quite on his own and quite consistently with his strongest inclinations which were in accordance with his fallen nature. But it is also true that God ordained that this should happen in order that his “purpose of election might stand” (to borrow the language of Romans 9). Joseph’s brothers intended evil in selling him into slavery. But God intended this for good (cf, Genesis 50:20). In the same way, Judas intended evil, but God meant this for a far greater good.
I am wondering if he had a choice and if not then it seems pretty sad and depressing to think a human being was created just for the purpose of going to Hell for eternity. I know prophecy had to be fullfilled but this still seems harsh.
It’s not that simple. You make it sound as if God perversely creates in order to damn irrespective of the willing sinfulness of those he creates. There are two problems with your objection. On the one hand you are implicitly holding God to a very subjective standard of goodness. But if you think about it, there is no standard higher than God himself and we would do well not to put Him on the hot seat and hold Him accountable to our notions of justice (Romans 9, the entire book of Job). The second problem is that you’re overlooking the highest good that God is working out–namely the proclamation of His own glory throughout all the earth! According to Paul, he does this in two ways: By giving mercy to some and justice to all the rest. Consider these words from Paul:
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills (Romans 9:14-18).
This is undoubtedly the most difficult teaching of Scripture. It’s why some of Jesus’ disciples left him in John 6:66. For consider what Jesus said one verse earlier: “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” No one wants to hear that salvation is entirely up to God. The objection–the very one you’re hinting at–is quite understandable. Consider how Paul deals with it:
19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—(Romans 9:19-23).
It is passages like this that remind us that we are mere creatures. God is the potter and can do whatever He wants with the clay. If He chooses to glorify Himself by showing mercy to some and justice to the others, that is entirely up to Him. But don’t think for a second that Paul is saying that the “vessels” are merely mindless automatons who therefore cannot be held responsible for their actions. In fact God “endures with much patience” those who will finally be lost.

God did not want Judas to betray Jesus. He did not want Josephs brothers to sell their annoying sibling into slavery. He did not want Pharaoh to oppress the children of Israel. But there was something God wanted even more than this–namely that his Name would be glorified in all the earth. For this reason He ordained that all of these sinners and their sins would serve an even higher purpose, and so in this sense, it was His will that all these evils should come to pass.

At the end of the day, God says, “buck stops here.”
For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name…
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God…
that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things. (Isaiah 45:4-7)
 
About Judas…not necessarily in hell!

The apostles’ creed which we profess says:
…He…was crucified, died, and was buried. HE DESCENDED INTO HELL…

According to the second reading in the office of the readings for Holy Saturday, an anonymous homilist tells us that our Lord, opened the gates of hell and called everyone out. Therefore, Judas might be in heaven rather that hell.

God does not wish the sinner to die but to repent and live!
 
Thank you everyone for the replies. I must admit there are many things that no matter how explained I will never completely understand. But I do have a better understanding than before.

Soneone said this in a post ““For this reason He ordained that all of these sinners and their sins would serve an even higher purpose, and so in this sense, it was His will that all these evils should come to pass.””"

I still have a problem with free will if it was “” His will that all these evils should come to pass. “” If God knows everything that happens before it happens then whats the point ? We say time doesnt exist to him so he knows who will go to heaven or go to Hell even before they are born so that seems to go against free will. It doesnt really seem like free will when he already knows the outcome. Were is the chance of changing the outcome?
 
David, is this the St. Boethius conclusion of Perceptual Divine Foreknowledge? His conclusion is Catholic doctrine?
It’s the dominant position historically, for sure. I’m not sure if it’s binding.
OP: Of predestination, I suggest St. Aquinas writings on the subject. He makes the point of predestination that all are predestined to God, but it is ultimately our free will that accepts that predestined relationship or denies it.
No, Aquinas did not teach this. He taught that those who are predestined will all be saved, and those who aren’t, won’t. Predestination to life is not based on foreknowledge–in fact, God’s knowledge causes our actions and not the other way round (according to Aquinas). And yet, Aquinas says that we have free will. One of the great puzzles in Aquinas.
 
No, Aquinas did not teach this. He taught that those who are predestined will all be saved, and those who aren’t, won’t. Predestination to life is not based on foreknowledge–in fact, God’s knowledge causes our actions and not the other way round (according to Aquinas). And yet, Aquinas says that we have free will. One of the great puzzles in Aquinas.
That accords with my reading of Aquinas as well. I wonder, however, if Aquinas himself distinguished between predestination to grace and predestination to glory as later scholastics most certainly did. (I don’t buy the distinction, by the way. Why would God predestine the means, but not the end? Does it make sense to predestine one “half way there?”)

To me the problem is resolved when we dispense of “free will” as the fix for theodicy, since this really only buys us a temporary reprieve from the battle, but no final victory. After all, if God foresees the freely chosen actions of human beings in eternity past, then we can ask why God would create beings who would be better off not existing in the first place (assuming hell is a conscious eternal punishment). If you had both the knowledge and the power to head off potential evil at the pass, why, if you are truly benevolent, wouldn’t you?

Let’s take the case of Judas. Would he not have been better off never having been born in the first place (cf, Mark 14:21)? Yet God created him anyway. Positing a free will defense doesn’t get us out of the grip of theodicy. Far better is to take the approach that scripture does: “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?” (Job 38:4). “But who are you to answer back to God” (Romans 9:20)? Scripture holds divine sovereignty and human responsibility together in tension. “Free will,” cuts that tension by trying to get God off the hook by shifting all responsibility to human beings. But God doesn’t need our protection. He accepts responsibility for his creation, including the bad decisions His creatures make, because He has ordained a purpose for everything that happens under the sun. That seems to be the Biblical take on all this. Philosophy, in my opinion, really hasn’t offered a viable alternative.
 
It’s the dominant position historically, for sure. I’m not sure if it’s binding.
In my opinion, it’s the most sound theory. Not a fan of W. L. Craig’s theory of conceptual foreknowledge or the theory of middle knowledge.
No, Aquinas did not teach this. He taught that those who are predestined will all be saved, and those who aren’t, won’t. Predestination to life is not based on foreknowledge–in fact, God’s knowledge causes our actions and not the other way round (according to Aquinas). And yet, Aquinas says that we have free will. One of the great puzzles in Aquinas.
My mistake, read an article somewhere about that. Though, I agree with the position though that all are called to God, for this is why we exist, but in the end it is up to us to accept or deny that call.

“God’s knowledge causes our actions” do you have any good reads about this? With the Boethius concept held and this stirred in the mix, seems at odds. Or if you could explain.

Thanks Contarini
 
I am simple minded so let me get this correct. Predestination as people think doesn’t really exist. Its just that God already knows what free will choices we will make before we make them because he has seen his plan and creation and how everything will play out before it does. Because time is a man made thing to help our minds comprehend the passing of events. To him time doesnt exist, everything is just is?
The past, the present and the future are an eternal now to God. All things are eternally present to God.

But, lets throw a monkey wrench into the works,

We, children of God, with free will to do His will or resist His continuous and undeseved grace…are we the predestined?

If we continually ( to our moment of death) do His will then ( without presumption) we could very well be the “predestined” to heaven.

However, who is so holy and so perfect that upon death, goes straight to heaven? Only God knows that.

God is so merciful that the cut and dry option of heaven or hell is just too much demand on us stubborn (as a mule) humans.

Purgatory is God’s mercy.

Those!!! are the true predestined. We can only - without presumption - hope to be, by the obedience of His will and the working out of our salvation in fear and trembling, become the predestined like our brothers and sisters in Purgatory.

Pray for the Poor Souls in Purgatory…when they enter heaven, they will pray for you.
 
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