Justification and Marian Devotion

[Joseph651]

Hello All;

Need help on what is the Justification and Marian Devotion? Being an Anglican and thinking about changing to the CC I need information.
Thanks to All

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the first: Marian devotion is simply that, devotion. As the mother of our Lord and Savior she was the first to see Him, the first to care for Him; she saw His first smile and His first tear. . . .

That being said, particular devotional practices are optional. Totally. You need never be a ‘devotee’ of Mary. You need never say a rosary, or read about an apparition. While there are some (by no means all) apparitions which the Church has agreed were both supernatural and not in conflict with Church teaching, even so, YOU personally don’t have to know about them, talk about them, or think about them.

Possibly as a Protestant you felt more ‘drawn’ to one of the evangelists. Some identify with Luke, some with Matthew, some Mark or John–of course, some are drawn to Peter or Paul. . . Usually, there is a writer whose words you ‘like’, or ‘understand’ more than some or most of the others. Well, you’re not putting them on a par with Jesus, you aren’t even putting them in competition with each other exactly, but sometimes you feel a kind of ‘kinship’ with a particular soul.

So with saints–and Mary is a saint–sometimes a saint’s life will ‘speak’ to us. Lots of us mothers relate to Mary–or to her mother Anne. . .or to Monica, mother of St. Augustine. Animal lovers tend to enjoy hearing about St. Francis. You get the idea.

None of those people take the focus away from Jesus, though. It’s just that knowing about them, praying with/to them, if we have some of the same circumstances in our lives, it makes it seem ‘easier’ in a way to ‘share’, and some of the things the saints did to make themselves saintly for God are things we can do. Ultimately, the aim is God–His love, loving Him.

So ultimately, devotion to Mary–His mother–is greater devotion to Him. We’re devoted to her BECAUSE we’re devoted to Him, not the other way around as so many seem to think nowadays. Jesus is the root, the sun. . .Mary is a flower, a moon . .You can’t have a flower without a root, but you can have a root by itself. You can’t see ‘light’ from the moon unless it comes from the sun FIRST.

 

[emeraldcoast]

Hello All;

Need help on what is the Justification and Marian Devotion? Being an Anglican and thinking about changing to the CC I need information.
Thanks to All

I am wondering if you are asking about Marian Dogmas.

God Bless!

 

[Poetess_Kera]

Catholics believe that we are justified by faith and works, as outlined for us in Scripture:

James 2:24 (King James Version)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Joseph651]

Thank you Tantum ergo,

I looked up Marian Devotion in Bible Dictionary, dua me, never thought about Mary ergo Marian! Now I know what you all are talking about. Thanks for the info. (You need never be a ‘devotee’ of Mary. You need never say a rosary, or read about an apparition.) I was in the thinking that all Catholic had to pray the rosary and be devoted to all the Saints!

Again, Thanks
Joe

 

[Justy90]

Catholics believe that we are justified by faith and works, as outlined for us in Scripture:

James 2:24 (King James Version)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You are misunderstanding this. We are not justified by faith + works. We are saved by the Blood of the Lamb and not by anything that we can do on our own. By abiding in Christ we do good works to show our faith, but works cannot save us. In the OT they are said to be like filthy rags in the sight of God. It is only by Christ and our faith in him that we are saved.

 

[fhansen]

You are misunderstanding this. We are not justified by faith + works. We are saved by the Blood of the Lamb and not by anything that we can do on our own. By abiding in Christ we do good works to show our faith, but works cannot save us. In the OT they are said to be like filthy rags in the sight of God. It is only by Christ and our faith in him that we are saved.

Yes, we all agree on this-that we’re saved by Gods grace alone. But expressions of love-which are always acts-makes us imitators of Christ and fufill the commandments to love.

”The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love” Galatians 5:6

God alone saves us but not without our consent and cooperation, to the extent we’re capable, and only because He elected to do things this way.

 

[Poetess_Kera]

Yes, we all agree on this-that we’re saved by Gods grace alone.

Yes, I’m sorry; I should have made this more clear. We’re saved by grace through faith, but not faith alone. Both faith and works are necessary, but of course, we can’t earn heaven or do anything to get there on our own. We have to cooperate with God’s saving grace.

 

[Reuben_J]

Thank you Tantum ergo,

I looked up Marian Devotion in Bible Dictionary, dua me, never thought about Mary ergo Marian! Now I know what you all are talking about. Thanks for the info. (You need never be a ‘devotee’ of Mary. You need never say a rosary, or read about an apparition.) I was in the thinking that all Catholic had to pray the rosary and be devoted to all the Saints!

Again, Thanks
Joe

That was a beautiful explanation by Tantum ergo. When prayer practice becomes a devotion it is just what it means – you are going one level higher than you normally do. I suppose this is no different than in most Protestants practice in term of prayer because you can be intense in your prayer as well, only that your focus of devotion may be different.

Catholics who engage in devotional prayer, as in all prayer, find such devotion can be very enriching, satisfying and spiritually fruitful. They find that their love for the Lord and the Church increase and very often as a result inspired to serve the Lord in love even more.

It is because of such fruitful experience that non-committal Catholics unlike traditional Catholics who are already deep in Marian devotion, are often moved to devotional prayer practice.

God bless you.

 

[Justy90]

Yes, I’m sorry; I should have made this more clear. We’re saved by grace through faith, but not faith alone. Both faith and works are necessary, but of course, we can’t earn heaven or do anything to get there on our own. We have to cooperate with God’s saving grace.

This seems to be a fair analogy for the most part, but it always bothers me a bit when Catholics say that we have to cooperate with God’s saving grace. I’m not saying that this is a false statement, but what I am saying is that I believe that it is much better to know that we cooperate with God’s saving grace with Christ within us. We Can’t Do It. It must be Christ.

One of the most valuable things that I have learned since becoming Anglican is what we say quite often at our Wednesday Noon Eucharist. “It is no longer I that liveth, but Christ who liveth within me.”

 

[fhansen]

This seems to be a fair analogy for the most part, but it always bothers me a bit when Catholics say that we have to cooperate with God’s saving grace. I’m not saying that this is a false statement, but what I am saying is that I believe that it is much better to know that we cooperate with God’s saving grace with Christ within us. We Can’t Do It. It must be Christ.

One of the most valuable things that I have learned since becoming Anglican is what we say quite often at our Wednesday Noon Eucharist. “It is no longer I that liveth, but Christ who liveth within me.”

**Apparently Lutheranism is closer to Catholicism on this point than with many other Protestant denominations but what can bother a Catholic a bit is when a Protestant says that man plays no part at all in his salvation. Protestants may think we’re slapping Jesus in the face if we maintain that man can help save himself in any way while Catholics think that God has elected to have man play his part so that the changes that take place in man-where he reverses within himself, so to speak, the decision to reject or rebel against God originally made for mankind by Adam & Eve-come partly as a result of mans will, so far as he’s able. This ensures that the change is real-that man’s love for God is personal and real.

We believe man fell hard as a result of his original sin but not so hard as to have no freedom with which to wise up, with Gods help, and choose rightly this time. It’s a fine distinction that has to do with God’s drawing man rather than forcing him or magically restoring him with no purpose for the struggle that ensued from being cast into this world and no answer to the question of why God would lay down laws to begin with that man was incapable of obeying.
**

 

[Rustic_Papist]

I suggest taking a gander here for an understanding on the Catholic doctrine of Justification, Joesph651. As for Marian Devotion, I recommend looking into the works of St Louis de Montfort, especially the links to the True Devotion here.

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rustic Papist.

 

[fhansen]

I suggest taking a gander here for an understanding on the Catholic doctrine of Justification, Joesph651. As for Marian Devotion, I recommend looking into the works of St Louis de Montfort, especially the links to the True Devotion here.

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rustic Papist.

This was a good article. Joseph could also read Trents pronouncements on justification directly here- the 6th session.

 

[Justy90]

Apparently Lutheranism is closer to Catholicism on this point than with many other Protestant denominations but what can bother a Catholic a bit is when a Protestant says that man plays no part at all in his salvation. Protestants may think we’re slapping Jesus in the face if we maintain that man can help save himself in any way while Catholics think that God has elected to have man play his part so that the changes that take place in man-where he reverses within himself, so to speak, the decision to reject or rebel against God originally made for mankind by Adam & Eve-come partly as a result of mans will, so far as he’s able. This ensures that the change is real-that man’s love for God is personal and real.

We believe man fell hard as a result of his original sin but not so hard as to have no freedom with which to wise up, with Gods help, and choose rightly this time. It’s a fine distinction that has to do with God’s drawing man rather than forcing him or magically restoring him with no purpose for the struggle that ensued from being cast into this world and no answer to the question of why God would lay down laws to begin with that man was incapable of obeying.

I think the last thing Anglicans profess is man having no role in his salvation. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Having faith in Christ to attain God’s grace is not passive as many Protestants would say. Anglicans would agree for the most part that there is action in faith. What I am saying however is doing good works on our own to be seen as meritous is no good at all in the issue of Salvation. I’m thinking that you may agee with that. You should because it certainly is Biblical.

 

[fhansen]

I think the last thing Anglicans profess is man having no role in his salvation. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Having faith in Christ to attain God’s grace is not passive as many Protestants would say. Anglicans would agree for the most part that there is action in faith. What I am saying however is doing good works on our own to be seen as meritous is no good at all in the issue of Salvation. I’m thinking that you may agee with that. You should because it certainly is Biblical.

It’s also Catholic. The good works Catholicism teaches man must do are not done on his own-they’re gifts of grace themselves-which man can resist, as shown in the parable of the talents.

 

[Justy90]

It’s also Catholic. The good works Catholicism teaches man must do are not done on his own-they’re gifts of grace themselves-which man can resist, as shown in the parable of the talents.

Ok, but why would someone want to resist the gifts of grace?

 

[fhansen]

Ok, but why would someone want to resist the gifts of grace?

Well, why did the lazy servant bury his talent? This is where our choice lies-where our cooperation must come into play. All are given a measure of faith-God is infinitely fair -and there’ll be no excuses in the end for why we don’t turn to Him at some point. Faith, for an adult, is the beginning of our turning to God.

 

[Justy90]

Well, why did the lazy servant bury his talent? This is where our choice lies-where our cooperation must come into play. All are given a measure of faith-God is infinitely fair -and there’ll be no excuses in the end for why we don’t turn to Him at some point. Faith, for an adult, is the beginning of our turning to God.

I don’t agree with your analogy. Our cooperation isn’t really our cooperation, it’s Christ’s for us. God isn’t infinitely fair either. Some can hold fast to their faith and some just cannot. I don’t believe that fair has anything to do with God’s will. I think that this is and will just remain a mystery to us in this life.

Furthermore, faith in Christ to dispense God’s saving grace is the only way that we can attain Salvation.

 

[fhansen]

I don’t agree with your analogy. Our cooperation isn’t really our cooperation, it’s Christ’s for us. God isn’t infinitely fair either. Some can hold fast to their faith and some just cannot. I don’t believe that fair has anything to do with God’s will. I think that this is and will just remain a mystery to us in this life.

Furthermore, faith in Christ to dispense God’s saving grace is the only way that we can attain Salvation.

God must be infinitely fair or else how could He blame anyone for not turning to Him? In Christianity faith in and love for God is a matter of justice-it’s simply the right thing for man to do.

But certainly the predestination issue remains a mystery and while we are not saved without Gods grace from beginning to end, I still maintain, that, like Augustine said, He does not save us without our consent. He uses our faith first, and then draws us into hope and then increasingly into love, which must be expressed by us in order for it to be real and this is His work but our response/cooperation at the same time. And through this process we are to be made perfect and through this we are ultimately saved. He desires all to be saved but forces no one to be.

Adam & Eve freely fell-as an act of their will, and we must freely rise, as acts of our wills, individually, with Gods help, because rejecting the need for God is mans downfall to begin with. But we do not rise all at once-we become just as we come to fulfill the commandment to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. Impossible for man on his own-which is why man cannot fulfill the Law on his own, but not impossible for the God who promises to write His laws on our hearts and in our minds, if we’re willing.

 

[Justy90]

Impossible for man on his own-which is why man cannot fulfill the Law on his own, but not impossible for the God who promises to write His laws on our hearts and in our minds, if we’re willing.

I can agree with this.