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Justy90
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I believe that it is important for one to know that if we donāt have sufficient faith in Christ and therefore he isnāt working within us, we simply do not posess what it takes to live as Christ wishes for us to.OK
Just today I was volunteering in a thrift store and a woman came in looking for a coat or jacket for her 8 yr old. I jumped up and went on a 15 minute hunt for something to keep that kid warm. I donāt know him or his mom for that matter and have never met them, but I could never sit still while a child is in need of food or clothing. Itās not me who does this or wills this, it is Christ in me and I know it is him. It didnāt just start happening to me over night either.
It is not I that liveth, but Christ who liveth within me.
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fhansen
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I canāt argue with that-you mean to emphasize that weāre not responsible for any of it-God alone is. And all true works of love are Gods grace operating through us and Catholics certainly believe that Christ dwells in us.
But itās not as if we become identity-less either, or strictly passive on-lookers, or that we become fully aligned with His will all at once-and necessarily stay there ever after. Weāre a work in progress, He the Potter, we the clay, and He has grand ideas for us all. He never desired for man to sin and He still wants us sinless now. And He wants us striving for the prize-as Paul did.
"But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christāthe righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14**I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." **Phil 3:7-14
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Reuben_J
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Did not Jesus said if we have little faith even as small as a mustard seed ā¦? And we can even move mountain ā¦ ?
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Bob_Crowley
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Iām a former Protestant, who didnāt give much thought to Mary while I was a Protestant. At that time, as far as I was concerned, she was just the woman chosen to bear Christ. I didnāt take much notice of words like āAll generations will call me blessedā, with the connotations that implies.
Although I remember my old Protestant pastor commenting that thereād been a ālot of themā (Marian apparitions) and that he thought they were a ājudgment against a divided churchā. That was rather odd for a Protestant pastor.
Personally Iām convinced that Mary has been appearing in the last couple of centuries in particular with warnings. For example I think Revelation 12 describes a āportent in heavenā clearly refers to Mary, whose child is Christ.
However the Catholic Church itself doesnāt demand that you devote yourself to Mary. Nor are you justified by any devotion to Mary. Justification is by Christ alone.
Obviously I believe she has a role to play, particularly in this day and age. But it will be up to you to decide what your level of interest in Mary and Marianism will reach.
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Justy90
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The point was that it begins with the mustard seed and grows from there. This is what Paul is eluding to when he speaks of striving for the prize. He isnāt contradicting what he said about being saved by grace through faith in Christ, he is speaking of growing in that faith.
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Justy90
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exactly.
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Reuben_J
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What does it account for** ādonāt have sufficient faithā**?
I think I know what youāre trying to say; only that when you make a statement, you have to be consistent. You are not consistent here - how much faith is not sufficient when Jesus said we can have little faith as small as the mustard seed (and itās certainly sufficient)?
What you are saying there you are actually equating **insufficient faith **as no faith, which is wrong because it contradicts with the āsmall faithā. There is no such thing as insuficient faith - it is certainly not Biblical. Either you have it or you donāt. You can only have little faith - and thatās alright with Jesus.
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Justy90
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You are either progressing in faith or you are regressing. You canāt ever stay the same. I think that is very Biblical.
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Reuben_J
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Agreed. Thatās a true statement but that was not what you said.
You were saying about insufficient faith and that does not make sense.
Maybe I donāt understand Protestants very well, but the way you guys talk do baffle me. Mere mortals Christians always start with little faith - the rest God will provide. However, as you say, our faith can dwindle and us, only us, are to be blamed for that.
Now why are we talking about this? I saw a puzzling statement, asked you to clarifiy and you did not give me one. If you want to disagree on certain subject as in the title of the thread, I would expect that you would know why and what you are talking about to make your disagreement more credible. Very often the disagreement comes about simply because the thing said is Catholic. And how silly that can be, as I discover in the other thread about similar subject.
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Justy90
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Reuben_J
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I have encountered Protestants like that but most probably thatās how they feel about me (or us Catholics) too sometimes. I am sorry for the generalization and itās not to be meant across the board. I was talking with you and that comment is a reflection of my frustration because you seem to be evading the issue.
Where are we at again? You are saying about insufficient faith and therefore cannot live a life that God wants us to live or something to that effect. I disagree and feel that the statement is not true and not Biblical. If you want to rebut us here first of all I need to check what youāre saying. If you come with a statement like that most probably you may not be able to rebut us when it comes to a more established doctrine of the Catholic Church. I am merely pointing that out and it seems we have not even come out of it yet.
God bless.
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Justy90
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When a person diets, does he/she weigh themselves everyday to gauge the progress? By the same token, does a person gauge daily how much they sin or what good works they do to see how much faith they have?
On the other hand, over the course of years one goes from having a small amount of faith that really doesnāt show much of its works through Christ to having a growing and cultivating faith where one sees him or herself living differently than they did years before and doing things that they otherwise would not.
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Reuben_J
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This seems to be off topic. Hope the OP does not mind and after weāre over with this we can move on.
Are you saying that we donāt know when our faith has increased or not? Then I donātā agree with you. We may never be able to measure faith but we certainly can tell and feel the strength of our own faith and conviction. At least I know how much faith I have and whether itās better or not.
A person can gauge the improvement or deterioration of their spiritual life as a result of the activities they carry out in their lives. For example, I am very much enriched and my faith enhanced when I have gone through satisfactory ministry work. My colleagues testify similar experience too. I cannot speak for Protestants but I think itās not much different for them either.
So yes, by the work we do, we can increase our faith. Is not faith a decision (at first)? How do you know you have faith if it was not a decision to step out in it OR to walk in the footstep of Jesus? It is a decision, you see. From there your faith grows depend on how sincere you are but we believe the Lord will put more faith in your heart if you are willing to walk for him. Does this sounds foreign to you? I donāt think so.
Yes, of course.
But this does not address your earlier statement. Here I refresh it for you:
I have highlighted what you said. Can you read that again and know why I simply find thatās a poor and erroneous statement?
**Scripturally there is no such thing as insufficient faith. Either you have it or not.
If you have little faith, Christ will work in you.
And we do possess what it takes to live as Christ wishes for us to. **
Now I hope to make my objection clear minus perhaps all the rhetoric earlier on.
God bless you.
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Justy90
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Reuben_J
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We needs to always strive on because we can never stop until the day we meet the Lord. For (1) we may not have the perfect faith and (2) we always be fall short of the glory of God and (3) there is always the possibility of backsliding considering the power of the world thatās against every Christian believers.
Yes. Your faith can increase as time goes by. This is what we mean when we say we can nurture our faith. Of course it can be done through living the life of the Gospel ā prayers, words, work of charity, living in a community of faith and putting into action what you believe. By doing all these and more, our faith will increase. Jesus promised it - the mustard seed, the yeast of the leavened bread, etc.
If you already have great faith, unless you think you are already perfect, there is always room for improvement for greater faith. Of course having great faith is just great; many times it will be accompanied by signs and wonders.
You have to be careful of this fallacy: it is not insufficient faith but actually what you mean when you say insufficient faith you actually is saying - no faith. Otherwise you are disbelieving Jesus because he said you need only little faith and more will be added to you (youāll move mountain).
If we have faith and accept Christ, he is living in us and that is sufficient for us to live according to his purpose. How could a Christian does not have Christ living in Him? You have Christ living in you even if you have little faith. Only you need to work on that faith as mentioned earlier.
Not everybody start with great faith. Jesus does not narrow down his criteria for salvation. He is a generous God and that include increasing oneās faith if we have very little of it.
God bless you.
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