Justification and Salvation

[NDfan]

Sorry!

Nebula no need to apologize. You gave great feedback and added more to my post. Thanks

 

[SyCarl]

SyCarl great feedback but I’m speaking strictly on what the OP was posting. The doctrines of OSAS and TULIP do not reflect strict Calvinist beliefs. Point of fact those who follow Calvinistic teachings will clarify that OSAS is a newer doctrine than traditional Calvinistic teachings. Those who follow OSAS and TULIP which is what the friend of the OP was referring to don’t believe you can fall away from salvation because that would mean you were not saved to begin with. They don’t believe free will can lead to a rejection of Christ once you are saved. If that happens then again you were not saved to begin with.

TULIP is a summary or Calvinist beliefs adopted at the Synod of Dordt (1618-19) in response to the 5 points of the Remonstrants, the followers of Jacob Arminius. Calvinists would say that Perseverance of the saints, the P in Tulip, is different than Once Saved Always saved. Presbyterianism arose from the Scottish branch of Calvinism founded by John Knox. Presbyterians now do not necessarily strictly follow Calvinist doctrines. Presbyterians do not follow OSAS.

 

[JonNC]

I think that you might be, but it is not your fault. The Church, like St. Paul before her, uses Justification to indicate both the singular event in a person’s life where the work of the Cross is applied (Baptism) and the process by which we become holy due to the grace from the Trinity.

Ralph,
So, in the Catholic teaching, where does sanctification come in?
Jon

 

[NDfan]

TULIP is a summary or Calvinist beliefs adopted at the Synod of Dordt (1618-19) in response to the 5 points of the Remonstrants, the followers of Jacob Arminius. Calvinists would say that Perseverance of the saints, the P in Tulip, is different than Once Saved Always saved. Presbyterianism arose from the Scottish branch of Calvinism founded by John Knox. Presbyterians now do not necessarily strictly follow Calvinist doctrines. Presbyterians do not follow OSAS.

Sycarl you couldn’t be more wrong. Presbyterians most certainly do follow OSAS as do some Baptist groups and some Non-denoms. My wife’s family are all presbyterians and this is exactly their doctrine.

 

[SyCarl]

Sycarl you couldn’t be more wrong. Presbyterians most certainly do follow OSAS as do some Baptist groups and some Non-denoms.

I find that quite interesting. I have been a Presbyterian for more than 50 years and I have never been taught OSAS, at least in the Presbyterian Church in Canada. One subordinate standard of our church is the Westminster Confession of Faith which deals with perseverance of the saints. However there have been updated standards such as Living Faith. While the Westminster Confession has not been changed by our church, its application has been modified by various proceedings of the General Assembly.

I have looked into this point quite extensively as I hope to attend theological college and be come an ordained minister when I retire. To do so I must subscribe to the Church’s subordinate standards, which I am satisfied I do without believing in OSAS.

 

[Snerticus]

From what I have gathered, the RC church teaches that justification and sanctification cannot be seperated - that justification is a process, not an event.

Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken on this one

From what I have gleaned from others, first comes justification, which is followed then by sanctificatin, and then finally salvation. I’ll look it up in the CCC. Hold on:

Okay, I found a few snippets.

The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the “inner man,” 44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification… But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. CCC 1995

So it seems that yes, justification produces sanctification. So first comes justification, then sanctification.

Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace CCC 1446

I’d be interested in the full teaching of the “planks of salvation” from the Church Fathers.

Unfortunately, I can’t really find clear and consise wordage in the CCC that tells of justification and salvation together. However, from what I can infer, salvation is a process that started with Christ’s sacrifice which (very basically) justified us so that we are sanctified for everlasting salvation. (Very, VERY basic).

Does this sound correct (to the Catholics)?

 

[NDfan]

I find that quite interesting. I have been a Presbyterian for more than 50 years and I have never been taught OSAS, at least in the Presbyterian Church in Canada. One subordinate standard of our church is the Westminster Confession of Faith which deals with perseverance of the saints. However there have been updated standards such as Living Faith. While the Westminster Confession has not been changed by our church, its application has been modified by various proceedings of the General Assembly.

I have looked into this point quite extensively as I hope to attend theological college and be come an ordained minister when I retire. To do so I must subscribe to the Church’s subordinate standards, which I am satisfied I do without believing in OSAS.

Is it possible there are some Presbyterian churches that teach OSAS in the US?? If that’s the case would they fall outside the General Assembly?

 

[SyCarl]

Is it possible there are some Presbyterian churches that teach OSAS in the US?? If that’s the case would they fall outside the General Assembly?

The General Assembly I refer to is that of the Presbyterian Church in Canada. It does not apply to any of the Presbyterian bodies in the U.S., each of which would have its own General Assembly. Some Presbyterians in the U.S. have more strictly retained their Calvinist roots than others, including perseverance of the saints. There are a few congregations in Canada of the Reformed Presbyterian Church which started in the U.S. and is very Calvinist.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Ralph,
So, in the Catholic teaching, where does sanctification come in?
Jon

This is more directed to grace, but it gives you a good understanding of the sanctification process as understood by the Church:

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

 

[NDfan]

The General Assembly I refer to is that of the Presbyterian Church in Canada. It does not apply to any of the Presbyterian bodies in the U.S., each of which would have its own General Assembly. Some Presbyterians in the U.S. have more strictly retained their Calvinist roots than others, including perseverance of the saints. There are a few congregations in Canada of the Reformed Presbyterian Church which started in the U.S. and is very Calvinist.

SyCarl thanks. That’s what I thought.

 

[nebula]

I find that quite interesting. I have been a Presbyterian for more than 50 years and I have never been taught OSAS, at least in the Presbyterian Church in Canada. One subordinate standard of our church is the Westminster Confession of Faith which deals with perseverance of the saints. However there have been updated standards such as Living Faith. While the Westminster Confession has not been changed by our church, its application has been modified by various proceedings of the General Assembly.

I have looked into this point quite extensively as I hope to attend theological college and be come an ordained minister when I retire. To do so I must subscribe to the Church’s subordinate standards, which I am satisfied I do without believing in OSAS.

I agree with ND on this. Historically prebyterians follow reformed theology with an ecclesiology made up of presbyters. I mean, look at John Knox! These days though it is true that many Presbyterians no longer follow reformed theology, like many mainline churches, have ill defined theologies.

 

[SyCarl]

I agree with ND on this. Historically prebyterians follow reformed theology with an ecclesiology made up of presbyters. I mean, look at John Knox! These days though it is true that many Presbyterians no longer follow reformed theology, like many mainline churches, have ill defined theologies.

I don’t know if it is an ill defined theology as much as a recognition of the biblical support that we are called to persevere. I think that this is combined with the realization that, even if perseverance of the saints is true in a theoretical sense, it is of no real practical use because one cannot know that they are of the elect until they have actually persevered to the end.

 

[Snerticus]

I don’t know if it is an ill defined theology as much as a recognition of the biblical support that we are called to persevere. I think that this is combined with the realization that, even if perseverance of the saints is true in a theoretical sense, it is of no real practical use because one cannot know that they are of the elect until they have actually persevered to the end.

Exactly! Same as Catholics because we don’t know if we’re saved until the end. Is it just a question of semantics here?

 

[LutheranDK]

From what I have gleaned from others, first comes justification, which is followed then by sanctificatin, and then finally salvation. I’ll look it up in the CCC. Hold on:

Okay, I found a few snippets.

So it seems that yes, justification produces sanctification. So first comes justification, then sanctification.

I’d be interested in the full teaching of the “planks of salvation” from the Church Fathers.

Unfortunately, I can’t really find clear and consise wordage in the CCC that tells of justification and salvation together. However, from what I can infer, salvation is a process that started with Christ’s sacrifice which (very basically) justified us so that we are sanctified for everlasting salvation. (Very, VERY basic).

Does this sound correct (to the Catholics)?

Thank you

But the problem I have with the above is:

Either you’re 100% justified, or you are 100% lost. “either-or”, as Kierkegaard would say. So either justification is the prerequisite for sanctification (which means that the process of sanctification is the consequence of having been saved, not a part of it), or justification (=salvation) is a “work in progress”. It can’t be both…

 

[Snerticus]

Thank you

But the problem I have with the above is:

Either you’re 100% justified, or you are 100% lost. “either-or”, as Kierkegaard would say. So either justification is the prerequisite for sanctification (which means that the process of sanctification is the consequence of having been saved, not a part of it), or justification (=salvation) is a “work in progress”. It can’t be both…

Well, since Baptism makes us justified, I assume we are 100% justified. We can’t take Baptism back, so I also assume nor can we fall from justification.

As far as I can tell from the brief searches I’ve done. Justification brings about automatic sanctification… but I’m open to criticism here, since I do have trouble understanding this sort of stuff. More snippets I found:

The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. CCC 1989

Sorry, that last quote I must have repeated from my last post. I deleted it. So I only have one snippet.

Anyway, I don’t think the Church teaches that justification = salvation, though.

 

[Snerticus]

Wow, I thought reading the Bible was tough. Reading the Catechism is really hard!

The definition of Sanctifying Grace in the back of the CCC says:

The grace which heals our human nature wounded by sin by giving us a share in the divine life of the Trinity. It is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of sanctifying us - of making us “perfect”, holy, and Christlike.

So I would think that “once justified, always justified”. And once justified, we become sanctified - but need ongoing graces throughout life to remain sanctified. Then, at the end of our time here on earth, because of our justification (through Baptism) and sanctification (ongoing throughout our lives), it ends in salvation. .

Man, it sounds like I’m slipping up here BIG TIME!

HELP!!!

If I thought I was confused before, now I’m really gone… … Does what I said sound right?

 

[ralphinal]

Ralph,
So, in the Catholic teaching, where does sanctification come in?
Jon

Sanctification is the daily, hourly, minutely (if that is a word) use of grave in our lives to acheive holiness. It is the other use of justificaiton, where we act upon the grace, avoid sin, do good works, and live the life Christ called us to, IN other words, it is the same thing that you see when you see that word.

Several months ago, we were studying St. Paul in a young adults group and this topic came up. Basically, Paul used the word Justify to mean both, or the translators did. The CHurch sees and uses it both ways at times, though she will also use sanctification, too.

AS posted earlier, once Justified, always Justified. That is why those who are baptised that end up in hell are worse off. However, that does not translate into once justified always saved. No, we must be justified THEN we must continually remain holy (sanctification) in order to reach salvation. LIke clean shirt, we can always get dirty again, but we will always be a shirt.

 

[nebula]

I don’t know if it is an ill defined theology as much as a recognition of the biblical support that we are called to persevere. I think that this is combined with the realization that, even if perseverance of the saints is true in a theoretical sense, it is of no real practical use because one cannot know that they are of the elect until they have actually persevered to the end.

That’s fair enough Carl, I shouldn’t have been so general. In general I find that American Christians, across the board, have ill defined theologies and that many churches in response do not emphasize their historical theologies. But, it is obvious that you have well thought out reasons for what you believe, and perhaps your church does as well.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Wow, I thought reading the Bible was tough. Reading the Catechism is really hard!

The definition of Sanctifying Grace in the back of the CCC says:

So I would think that “once justified, always justified”. And once justified, we become sanctified - but need ongoing graces throughout life to remain sanctified. Then, at the end of our time here on earth, because of our justification (through Baptism) and sanctification (ongoing throughout our lives), it ends in salvation. .

Man, it sounds like I’m slipping up here BIG TIME!

HELP!!!

If I thought I was confused before, now I’m really gone… … Does what I said sound right?

Sounds clear enough to me!

 

[JonNC]

Sanctification is the daily, hourly, minutely (if that is a word) use of grave in our lives to acheive holiness. It is the other use of justificaiton, where we act upon the grace, avoid sin, do good works, and live the life Christ called us to, IN other words, it is the same thing that you see when you see that word.

Several months ago, we were studying St. Paul in a young adults group and this topic came up. Basically, Paul used the word Justify to mean both, or the translators did. The CHurch sees and uses it both ways at times, though she will also use sanctification, too.

AS posted earlier, once Justified, always Justified. That is why those who are baptised that end up in hell are worse off. However, that does not translate into once justified always saved. No, we must be justified THEN we must continually remain holy (sanctification) in order to reach salvation. LIke clean shirt, we can always get dirty again, but we will always be a shirt.

Ralph,
There are times when I scratch my head and wonder what we actually disagree on.

Jon