Justification by faith alone argument

[Against_Heresy]

I was talking with a public preacher in the streets and I got into justification by faith alone. As we were talking he admitted and denied the belief in “Once saved always saved.” He said to me how works are evidence of faith and that if you say you have faith and have no works then that means you won’t ACTUALLY saved. I got a bit confused on how I was going to reply to this. Even though I refuted Ephesians 2:8-9, before I could had started hammering him with verses such as Romans 2:6, James 2:24, Matthew 16: 24-27, Revelation 20:12, Revelation 22:11-12, 1 Peter 1: 17 and etc… He told me “I am not here to have doctrinal debates” and left me.

Any ways what is a proper response to the claim for “Sola-fidie”, “if you say you have faith and have no works then that means you won’t ACTUALLY saved and that’s what James 2 means”.

How would you respond?

 

[bmullins]

It sounds to me like he wasn’t looking for any kind of conversation, just to belittle or berate you without caring if you have a response or not. In those situations there really is nothing you can do but pray for them and continue on your way. I would respond with these scriptures if he would listen.

Phil 2:12-13 - So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.

1 Peter 4:17-19 - For it is time for the judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, how will it end for those who fail to obey the gospel of God? “And if the righteous one is barely saved, where will the godless and the sinner appear?” As a result, those who suffer in accord with God’s will, hand their souls over to a faithful creator as they do good.

Rev 20:11-15 - Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them. I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

Matthew 25:14-30 - "It will be as when a man who was going on a journey called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents; o another, two; to a third, one–to each according to his ability. Then he went away. Immediately the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five. Likewise, the one who received two made another two. But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money. After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them.

The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five. He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come; share your master’s joy.’ (Then) the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come; share your master’s joy.’ Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter; so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’ His master said to him in reply, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter? Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?

Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten. For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’

 

[fhansen]

I was talking with a public preacher in the streets and I got into justification by faith alone. As we were talking he admitted and denied the belief in “Once saved always saved.” He said to me how works are evidence of faith and that if you say you have faith and have no works then that means you won’t ACTUALLY saved. I got a bit confused on how I was going to reply to this. Even though I refuted Ephesians 2:8-9, before I could had started hammering him with verses such as Romans 2:6, James 2:24, Matthew 16: 24-27, Revelation 20:12, Revelation 22:11-12, 1 Peter 1: 17 and etc… He told me “I am not here to have doctrinal debates” and left me.

Any ways what is a proper response to the claim for “Sola-fidie”, “if you say you have faith and have no works then that means you won’t ACTUALLY saved and that’s what James 2 means”.

How would you respond?

**You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. **James 2:24

 

[Against_Heresy]

**You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. **James 2:24

Looking back I think a good response would had been:

"I understand that you believe the works are only evidence but if they are meant to be only mere evidence of your salvation then why would the scriptures go to the extent to say:

Romans 2:5-7 God; 6Who will render to every man according to his WORKS: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Matthew 16: 24-27 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

Revelation 20:12 The dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS.

Revelation 22:11-12 He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still. Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works.

1 Peter 1: 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s WORK, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:”

hmm would that response be good enough to make him wordless?

 

[fhansen]

Looking back I think a good response would had been:

"I understand that you believe the works are only evidence but if they are meant to be only mere evidence of your salvation then why would the scriptures go to the extent to say:

Romans 2:5-7 God; 6Who will render to every man according to his WORKS: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Matthew 16: 24-27 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

Revelation 20:12 The dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS.

Revelation 22:11-12 He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still. Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works.

1 Peter 1: 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s WORK, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:”

hmm would that response be good enough to make him wordless?

Here’re some more-there’re all kinds of verses like these, but nothing makes them wordless-they have answers for everything. They’ve decided that faith alone is the true path, everyone else is deluded and still under slavery to the Law. So they read things in such a way as to make these verses apply only to the Jews who’re still “under the Law”:

**To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:8

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:13**

 

[Journey322]

**

Here’re some more-there’re all kinds of verses like these, but nothing

makes them wordless-they have answers for everything."

Come on now, this is true of anyone (including Catholics) who is passionate about their faith.

"They’ve decided that faith alone is the true path, everyone else is deluded and still under slavery to the Law. "

This simply isn’t true. They believe they are saved by grace, through faith. However, they also believe we are called to work out our salvation through works. This may sound a bit confusing, but it is the difference between justification and sanctification. We are justified through the blood (grace) of Christ, but are in the process of being made holy (Sanctified) and will be until the Second Coming.

So they read things in such a way as to make these verses apply only to the Jews who’re still “under the Law”:

It is believed that Jewish people still live under Old Testament Law because they reject the deity of Christ. Without Christ, there is no new Covenant. The other alternative, of course, is the Old Covenant. This belief about Jewish people may or may not be inaccurate, but I have read a number of posts that contain misconceptions about protestants and catholics as well. My point is, I think we would all benefit from seeking to understand one another and being less quick to judge. Myself included.**

 

[bmullins]

This simply isn’t true. They believe they are saved by grace, through faith. However, they also believe we are called to work out our salvation through works.

It is entirely according to which denomination you speak to if it’s true or not. Not all protestants believe in works at all. In fact, there are some who believe grace is free and cheap and that you can accept God’s gift and then simply do whatever you want, and you’ll be fine.

There are others who believe that you don’t have to do works at all because you are saved either way, but that if you love God you will do works. The works do nothing for you and don’t provide grace or even reward, they simply are an act of love.

Then there are others who think that your reward in Heaven gets better the more works you do, but that grace is sufficient and even if you don’t do any works you’ll get to sit in the corner in Heaven, you just won’t get as much ‘stuff’.

That’s one of the problems with assuming that we understand or even know what the other person thinks or believes, because the sheer number of interpretations outside of the Catholic faith are amazing in and of themselves.

 

[6fatboy6]

sounds like you are referring to antinomianism, and you would be correct. Under the gospel dispensation of grace, moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. Although the concept is related to the foundational Protestant belief of Sola Fide, it is taken to an extreme in antinomianism.