C
CopticChristian
Guest
CU,
That is what most former Protestants that become Catholic find when they study Church Documents and Church history is that they had been cherry picking ending up losing the forest for the tree.
Justification by faith alone believed prior to the Reformation?
- Status
That is what most former Protestants that become Catholic find when they study Church Documents and Church history is that they had been cherry picking ending up losing the forest for the tree.
N
Nicea325
Guest
I disagree 100%. On the contrary, the ECF have been used for those precise reasons, to defend doctrines such as the Trinity, Incarnation,etc. The ECF defended those orthodox beliefs from heretics and other dissenters. Many take their works out-of-context to defend novel beliefs such as the Bible-only,etc,etc.
S
SteveVH
Guest
But they do line up with the Scriptures, from a Catholic perspective and interpretation. They don’t line up from your perspective or your interpretation. And your interpretation differs from thousands of other’s interpretations. So who decides “when they line up with the Scriptures”? Is it okay to have thousands of differing interpretations on this issue as well?
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
I’m not so concerned with extra-biblical interpretation with ECF’s work because I don’t think it’s easy for Catholics to determine what sources is Sacred Tradition and what sources are not. I don’t think all of the writings of the ECFs are Sacred Tradition, or equivalent to Sacred Scripture. Can you give me a list of the deposit of faith for Sacred Tradtion? Did it change and grow over the years?
I’ve read that there are only 15 Bible verses that are dogmatically interpreted by the Magestrium; therefore, Catholics have many different interpretations within the Catholic Church on many of the Bible passage.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
You understand that Magisterium means: Teaching Office?
What do you think Magisterium means and who do you think it is composed of?
I don’t even know why I keep trying… :hammering:
You still have some questions left unanswered from other threads.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
CU,
It is like that made up notion of Calvin you refer to and all that stuff invented 500 years ago…however within the Church the teachings and interpretations were developed in time and pretty much stayed the same…Like the Council of Orange, Council of Trent and now seen in the Catechism…
The Council of Orange is pretty much what is in the Catechism…now going about 1500 years of teaching since the Council, unchanged…
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
:hey_bud:
Magesterium = Pope and bishops in communion with him through Apostolic Succession (Peter successions… feed my sheep). Popes can speak from the chair as the vicar of Christ.
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is only 20 years old (±). Do you consider the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be Sacred Tradtion equal to Sacred Scripture?
I disagree, and you’ve twisted my intent. I am speaking of a specific issue with which they would have no context, that being the Reformation era debate regarding the role of works in justification, in light of the controversies of that time.
I guess the issue becomes how our communions view how they line up with scripture.
Jon
C
CopticChristian
Guest
CU,
The Catechism as stated in the Catechism, the deposit of Faith, based on Scripture and Tradtion.
.
It includes teachings of the Council of Orange, confirmed at Trent, and known today…
we are saved by grace, through faith, working in love…a work of God through start to finish…
J
josephback
Guest
I’ll have to look up the exact passage, but I’m pretty sure in the same letter or the letter following (2nd Clement) that Clement makes a statement to the opposite of faith alone". Somwething about works anyway.
Also, Irenaeus in his book “Against Heresies”(180-190 A.D.) makes an interesting mention. He says the Gnostics denied the necessity of good works for their own salvation because “they were spiritual by nature”. We all can read the evidence seeking to justify ourselves, but there’s a lot more in them the Puritans would absolutely cringe at. I’ll look for the passage in Clement and get back to you.
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Whenever I read the patristics I can read into them faith alone, I can read into them many doctrines. There are many times where the fathers speak of fiath as the great thing that saves us, but then on the very next page they will tell us that hte commandments are absolutely neccessary to keep (For example, the Philokalia, on no rightousness by works). The early church view was more dynamic than hte protestant view is, taking into account the greatness of faith and the keeping of the commandments, not one or the other. At least that is what I have seen in my reading of them.
F
ffg
Guest
'I believe in God and I believe Jesus is God became Man and suffered, died for my sins.
Now I have some sinning to do, if you’ll excuse me.’
That sounds great eh?
God is the one who saves and his mercy is obviously great as we are not, but a part of a good growing faith is to act in the way God instructs as much and best as possible.
This was not lost on the ECF’s no matter how much cherry picking you want to do.
I am still curious on your answer in the other thread. Your answer would really help in the understanding of your perception on faith.
Thanks.
Now I have some sinning to do, if you’ll excuse me.’
That sounds great eh?
God is the one who saves and his mercy is obviously great as we are not, but a part of a good growing faith is to act in the way God instructs as much and best as possible.
This was not lost on the ECF’s no matter how much cherry picking you want to do.
I am still curious on your answer in the other thread. Your answer would really help in the understanding of your perception on faith.
Thanks.
J
josephback
Guest
I’ve been looking and I seem to have remembered wrong. The quote from St. Clement is this:
“Let the wise man display his wisdom, not by [mere] words, but through good deeds.”
That said there are others who clearly teach the Catholic doctrine. From Ignatius’ epistle to the Ephesians:
“None of these things are hid from you if you perfectly possess that faith and love towards Christ Jesus which are the beginning and end of life. For the beginning is faith, and the end is love. Now these two, being inseperably connected together, are of God, while all other things which are requisite for a holy life follow after them.”
Again from Justin Martyr’s First Apology:
“And more than all other men are we your helpers and allies in promoting peace, seeing that we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions”
“Let the wise man display his wisdom, not by [mere] words, but through good deeds.”
That said there are others who clearly teach the Catholic doctrine. From Ignatius’ epistle to the Ephesians:
“None of these things are hid from you if you perfectly possess that faith and love towards Christ Jesus which are the beginning and end of life. For the beginning is faith, and the end is love. Now these two, being inseperably connected together, are of God, while all other things which are requisite for a holy life follow after them.”
Again from Justin Martyr’s First Apology:
“And more than all other men are we your helpers and allies in promoting peace, seeing that we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions”
Q
QNDNNDQDCE
Guest
Joseph, you need go only to the Bible to find that sort of expression.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:12-13.
When people talk about “justification by faith alone,” they usually have something more complicated in mind than “I can do whatever I want because I believe Jesus is Lord.” If you want to have meaningful dialogue, it’s probably best to sit down and draw up precise definitions of the words (“what does ‘justification’ mean to you?” etc.)
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:12-13.
When people talk about “justification by faith alone,” they usually have something more complicated in mind than “I can do whatever I want because I believe Jesus is Lord.” If you want to have meaningful dialogue, it’s probably best to sit down and draw up precise definitions of the words (“what does ‘justification’ mean to you?” etc.)
J
josephback
Guest
I never said others thought they could do whatever they wanted, and from my experience most people confuse faith alone with grace alone. They don’t intend to live hedonistic lives, but they’ve had it drilled into them that no works of any kind can play a role in salvation, and that the judgement of works so plainly taught refers to “rewards” rather than salvation. Our theology informs our Bible reading, so taking your cue what does ‘Justification’ mean to you?
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
“He who made you without your doing does not without your action justify you. Without your knowing He made you, with your willing He justifies you, but it is He who justifies, that the justice be not your own” (Serm. clxix, c. xi, n.13). St. Augustine
newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
1. Biblical Message of Justification
8.Our common way of listening to the word of God in Scripture has led to such new insights. Together we hear the gospel that “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life” (Jn 3:16). This good news is set forth in Holy Scripture in various ways. In the Old Testament we listen to God’s word about human sinfulness (Ps 51:1-5; Dan 9:5f; Eccl/Qo 8:9f; Ezra 9:6f) and human disobedience (Gen 3:1-19; Neh 9:16f,26) as well as of God’s “righteousness” (Isa 46:13; 51:5-8; 56:1 [cf. 53:11]; Jer 9:24) and “judgment” (Eccl/Qo 12:14; Ps 9:5f; 76:7-9).
9.In the New Testament diverse treatments of “righteousness” and “justification” are found in the writings of Matthew (5:10; 6:33; 21:32), John (16:8-11), Hebrews (5:3; 10:37f), and James (2:14-26).[10] In Paul’s letters also, the gift of salvation is described in various ways, among others: “for freedom Christ has set us free” (Gal 5:1-13; cf. Rom 6:7), “reconciled to God” (2 Cor 5:18-21; cf. Rom 5:11), “peace with God” (Rom 5:1), “new creation” (2 Cor 5:17), “alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Rom 6:11,23), or “sanctified in Christ Jesus” (cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 1:30; 2 Cor 1:1). Chief among these is the “justification” of sinful human beings by God’s grace through faith (Rom 3:23-25), which came into particular prominence in the Reformation period.
10.Paul sets forth the gospel as the power of God for salvation of the person who has fallen under the power of sin, as the message that proclaims that “the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith” (Rom 1:16f) and that grants “justification” (Rom 3:21-31). He proclaims Christ as “our righteousness” (1 Cor 1:30), applying to the risen Lord what Jeremiah proclaimed about God himself (Jer 23:6). In Christ’s death and resurrection all dimensions of his saving work have their roots for he is “our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification” (Rom 4:25). All human beings are in need of God’s righteousness, “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom 3:23; cf. Rom 1:18-3:20; 11:32; Gal 3:22). In Galatians (3:6) and Romans (4:3-9), Paul understands Abraham’s faith (Gen 15:6) as faith in the God who justifies the sinner (Rom 4:5) and calls upon the testimony of the Old Testament to undergird his gospel that this righteousness will be reckoned to all who, like Abraham, trust in God’s promise. "For the righteous will live by faith (Hab 2:4; cf. Gal 3:11; Rom 1:17). In Paul’s letters, God’s righteousness is also God’s power for those who have faith (Rom 1:16f; 2 Cor 5:21). In Christ he makes it our righteousness (2 Cor 5:21). Justification becomes ours through Christ Jesus “whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith” (Rom 3:25; see 3:21-28). “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - not the result of works” (Eph 2:8f).
11.Justification is the forgiveness of sins (cf. Rom 3:23-25; Acts 13:39; Lk 18:14), liberation from the dominating power of sin and death (Rom 5:12-21) and from the curse of the law (Gal 3:10-14). It is acceptance into communion with God: already now, but then fully in God’s coming kingdom (Rom 5:1f). It unites with Christ and with his death and resurrection (Rom 6:5). It occurs in the reception of the Holy Spirit in baptism and incorporation into the one body (Rom 8:1f, 9f; I Cor 12:12f). All this is from God alone, for Christ’s sake, by grace, through faith in “the gospel of God’s Son” (Rom 1:1-3).
12.The justified live by faith that comes from the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17) and is active through love (Gal 5:6), the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22f). But since the justified are assailed from within and without by powers and desires (Rom 8:35-39; Gal 5:16-21) and fall into sin (1 Jn 1:8,10), they must constantly hear God’s promises anew, confess their sins (1 Jn 1:9), participate in Christ’s body and blood, and be exhorted to live righteously in accord with the will of God. That is why the Apostle says to the justified: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil 2:12f). But the good news remains: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1), and in whom Christ lives (Gal 2:20). Christ’s “act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all” (Rom 5:18).
8.Our common way of listening to the word of God in Scripture has led to such new insights. Together we hear the gospel that “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life” (Jn 3:16). This good news is set forth in Holy Scripture in various ways. In the Old Testament we listen to God’s word about human sinfulness (Ps 51:1-5; Dan 9:5f; Eccl/Qo 8:9f; Ezra 9:6f) and human disobedience (Gen 3:1-19; Neh 9:16f,26) as well as of God’s “righteousness” (Isa 46:13; 51:5-8; 56:1 [cf. 53:11]; Jer 9:24) and “judgment” (Eccl/Qo 12:14; Ps 9:5f; 76:7-9).
9.In the New Testament diverse treatments of “righteousness” and “justification” are found in the writings of Matthew (5:10; 6:33; 21:32), John (16:8-11), Hebrews (5:3; 10:37f), and James (2:14-26).[10] In Paul’s letters also, the gift of salvation is described in various ways, among others: “for freedom Christ has set us free” (Gal 5:1-13; cf. Rom 6:7), “reconciled to God” (2 Cor 5:18-21; cf. Rom 5:11), “peace with God” (Rom 5:1), “new creation” (2 Cor 5:17), “alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Rom 6:11,23), or “sanctified in Christ Jesus” (cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 1:30; 2 Cor 1:1). Chief among these is the “justification” of sinful human beings by God’s grace through faith (Rom 3:23-25), which came into particular prominence in the Reformation period.
10.Paul sets forth the gospel as the power of God for salvation of the person who has fallen under the power of sin, as the message that proclaims that “the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith” (Rom 1:16f) and that grants “justification” (Rom 3:21-31). He proclaims Christ as “our righteousness” (1 Cor 1:30), applying to the risen Lord what Jeremiah proclaimed about God himself (Jer 23:6). In Christ’s death and resurrection all dimensions of his saving work have their roots for he is “our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification” (Rom 4:25). All human beings are in need of God’s righteousness, “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom 3:23; cf. Rom 1:18-3:20; 11:32; Gal 3:22). In Galatians (3:6) and Romans (4:3-9), Paul understands Abraham’s faith (Gen 15:6) as faith in the God who justifies the sinner (Rom 4:5) and calls upon the testimony of the Old Testament to undergird his gospel that this righteousness will be reckoned to all who, like Abraham, trust in God’s promise. "For the righteous will live by faith (Hab 2:4; cf. Gal 3:11; Rom 1:17). In Paul’s letters, God’s righteousness is also God’s power for those who have faith (Rom 1:16f; 2 Cor 5:21). In Christ he makes it our righteousness (2 Cor 5:21). Justification becomes ours through Christ Jesus “whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith” (Rom 3:25; see 3:21-28). “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - not the result of works” (Eph 2:8f).
11.Justification is the forgiveness of sins (cf. Rom 3:23-25; Acts 13:39; Lk 18:14), liberation from the dominating power of sin and death (Rom 5:12-21) and from the curse of the law (Gal 3:10-14). It is acceptance into communion with God: already now, but then fully in God’s coming kingdom (Rom 5:1f). It unites with Christ and with his death and resurrection (Rom 6:5). It occurs in the reception of the Holy Spirit in baptism and incorporation into the one body (Rom 8:1f, 9f; I Cor 12:12f). All this is from God alone, for Christ’s sake, by grace, through faith in “the gospel of God’s Son” (Rom 1:1-3).
12.The justified live by faith that comes from the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17) and is active through love (Gal 5:6), the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22f). But since the justified are assailed from within and without by powers and desires (Rom 8:35-39; Gal 5:16-21) and fall into sin (1 Jn 1:8,10), they must constantly hear God’s promises anew, confess their sins (1 Jn 1:9), participate in Christ’s body and blood, and be exhorted to live righteously in accord with the will of God. That is why the Apostle says to the justified: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil 2:12f). But the good news remains: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1), and in whom Christ lives (Gal 2:20). Christ’s “act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all” (Rom 5:18).
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
- Explicating the Common Understanding of Justification
19.We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
20.When Catholics say that persons “cooperate” in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.
4.2 Justification as Forgiveness of Sins and Making Righteous
22.We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin’s enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God’s gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30): both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
4.3 Justification by Faith and through Grace
25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.
27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it. The justification of sinners is forgiveness of sins and being made righteous by justifying grace, which makes us children of God. In justification the righteous receive from Christ faith, hope, and love and are thereby taken into communion with him.[14] This new personal relation to God is grounded totally on God’s graciousness and remains constantly dependent on the salvific and creative working of this gracious God, who remains true to himself, so that one can rely upon him. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession to which one could appeal over against God. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this renewal in faith, hope, and love is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes nothing to justification about which one could boast before God (Rom 3:27). [See Sources for section 4.3].
25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.
27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it. The justification of sinners is forgiveness of sins and being made righteous by justifying grace, which makes us children of God. In justification the righteous receive from Christ faith, hope, and love and are thereby taken into communion with him.[14] This new personal relation to God is grounded totally on God’s graciousness and remains constantly dependent on the salvific and creative working of this gracious God, who remains true to himself, so that one can rely upon him. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession to which one could appeal over against God. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this renewal in faith, hope, and love is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes nothing to justification about which one could boast before God (Rom 3:27). [See Sources for section 4.3].
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