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Koineman
Guest
Correct. They were already righteous. How could they have been already righteous unless God had made them righteous?
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Koineman
Guest
You’re subtly moving the goalposts here, Erick. We’re not talking about the ground of justification, i.e., what it’s based on, even though that’s an important topic. We’re talking about whether justify means to make righteous or to declare righteous. So my point about Titus 3 stands. In that passage, Paul mentions having been justified in the immediate context of regeneration and renewing. If he meant merely a declaration, there is nothing in that passage that would indicate such a meaning.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
You admit that justified in Romans 2:13 cannot mean to make the people righteous when tthey stand before God right? It doesn’t matter what or who made them righteous, the final day of judgement is no place for a second chance to be changed. Therefore the word justiffied in 2:13 has a singular unique reference to being declared not guilty and worthy to pass the judging eyes of God. The process if being made righteous in their lives may sure form the ground for the future acceptance, but don’t pull this into the temporal word justified which has no reference to anything else than what is happening on the day of judgement.
With regard to regeneration, does not this signify the blotting out of sin by virtue of being made a new creation? In order to pass through the adamic race into the christic race, you must go through the crucifixion burial and resurrection of Jesus, does thatnot also include the cleansing of ones guilt?
With regard to regeneration, does not this signify the blotting out of sin by virtue of being made a new creation? In order to pass through the adamic race into the christic race, you must go through the crucifixion burial and resurrection of Jesus, does thatnot also include the cleansing of ones guilt?
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
And Titus 3:7 refers to justification as a past event.only showing the same thing taught in romansromans
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Koineman
Guest
Let me see if I understand your reasoning here: Since there will be no second chances for being made righteous on judgment day, Romans 2:13 must be referring to a declaration of being righteous, such that a person will stand before God not condemned on Judgment day, right?
I’m not pulling anything into anything. I’m going by what the text says. Even if this justification Paul spoke of in Rom. 2 happens on judgment day, my question remains unanswered. Here is the question again: The doers of the law shall be justified. How can they be doers of the law, though, if they are not made righteous? Please answer that.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
They are declared righteous on the day of judgement on the basis that they did what the law commanded. Were they made righteous? Of course by their constant seeking to do what is good and just(Romans 2:5-10). But the text doesn’t say that they are justified on the last day by virtue of a prior work and process of a previous justification. The theory might be correct but we are looking for the meaning of specific works. And we cannot work outside the datum of ancient historical writings and their specific usages.
Paul’s use of words for their life for ‘doing the law’. That’s his vocabulary for their lives on earth. His vocabularyvof being present at the judgement and being found to be righteous is justification. Nit a process but a judgement rendered about what they done and how they have ALREADY lived.
Paul’s use of words for their life for ‘doing the law’. That’s his vocabulary for their lives on earth. His vocabularyvof being present at the judgement and being found to be righteous is justification. Nit a process but a judgement rendered about what they done and how they have ALREADY lived.
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onemangang
Guest
First of all, very intedresting thread
Looking for a little clearification, do you place regeneration, before justification? I know some of the discussion has been on a grounds of justification, but what about the grounds of regeneration? Do you separate the two?
Interesting thread guys, keep up the good work
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Koineman
Guest
So their own works made them righteous? I don’t think so. The only possible conclusion is that God made them righteous and then they became doers of the law.
A person cannot be a doer of the law unless he if first put into a condition of being righteous. Those who are not in this condition, i.e., the unsaved, cannot be said to be doers of the law. There are only two options here: Either they made their condition one of righteousness, and because of that they were doers of the law; OR God made their condition righteous, and because of that they were doers of the law.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Grant that. Be that as it may, I have no problem with the notion that God made them righteous. But we are doing etymology, the study of words and their usage.the word ‘‘justified’’ here it is not written with the thought of what happens in these peoples lives on earth in their individual pilgrimages, rather it has a unique sole reference to the passing through of the final judgement. These people are being given a reward for their works, namely justification.
With regard to whether justification takes place before or after regeneration. I believe that justification is a major component of regeneration , for in the process of being united to Christs death and resurrection, we are simulataneously recreated and acquitted from our adamic sinful lifestyles
With regard to whether justification takes place before or after regeneration. I believe that justification is a major component of regeneration , for in the process of being united to Christs death and resurrection, we are simulataneously recreated and acquitted from our adamic sinful lifestyles
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thenobes
Guest
Very good. The exact point of Titus 3. Our justification is both our being placed into the state of innocence (baptised into Christ’s death) and our walking in the works that God has set before us (thus being declared justifiied on the Last Day by our works, that is on our being doers of the Law.)
We are “made righteous” in that we now have works before us that can actually prove our righteousness. Works that are done by Faith working in Love.
Erick’s point seems to be that “declared righteous” only refers to one past point in time when in fact the process of walking in the works as well is the basis of our justification at any given point in time.
We are justified by repenting (turning from our old works) and living by faith (turning to the works of God).
peace
steve
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
But this is not how the scripture speaks.
Romans 2:13 says that this justification has sole reference to the acquittal they receive IN TURN for their good works, NOT the process of giving them good works. This should not be difficult to see. The justification in Romans 2:13 has a temporal reference to the ‘‘day’’ when God judges the world. To find an implicit fact that they are made righteous on here in and throughout their conversion is granted. But the wording dikaioo is not speaking about this. In fact the justification here is an examination of their works, not the instilling of them. Any other definition is illogically pit in.
Romans 2:13 says that this justification has sole reference to the acquittal they receive IN TURN for their good works, NOT the process of giving them good works. This should not be difficult to see. The justification in Romans 2:13 has a temporal reference to the ‘‘day’’ when God judges the world. To find an implicit fact that they are made righteous on here in and throughout their conversion is granted. But the wording dikaioo is not speaking about this. In fact the justification here is an examination of their works, not the instilling of them. Any other definition is illogically pit in.
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Erick_Ybarra
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Also, explain how Paul sees the imputation of righteousness from a verse that speaks of the remission of sins??? Romans 4:7-9
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Koineman
Guest
Now that I think of it, yes, justify here probably does refer to a future declaration/judgment. I’m not totally sure about it, but it seems likely.
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Koineman
Guest
Yes, the word “justified” in Titus 3 definitely seems to point to being made righteous.
That’s why this topic is so difficult, imo. Some verses seem to use the word as “to make righteous,” while others seem to use it only in a declarative sense. I’m starting to think that it’s both, but of course, unless I’m mistaken, that was what they said at Trent.
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Koineman
Guest
Erick, I’m still waiting to see a good harmonization of James 2 with Paul’s teaching on justification. I don’t think that has been dealt with yet, and in the interest of treating God’s word as a whole, rather than splitting it up, we need to harmonize those passages.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
If you fail to recognize the differences in James and Paul you will err.
In the first place, for Paul Abraham’s circumcision adds nothing to the righteousness he had while uncircumcised (rom 4:9-13, please read). The justification of Abraham in James is one by works. Abraham was not justified by works in genesisb15:6. He was justified by works years later when he offered up Isaac. Failure to see this will inevitably mess up the harmony.
James does not teach that Abraham was lost and condemned before offering up Isaac. However in Paul, before justification, which I before the washing of regeneration, one IS condemned. They are lost and guilty, then justified. (Titus 3:7).
Abraham’s justification is not one of the beginning of salvation it is one of later by obedience.
In the first place, for Paul Abraham’s circumcision adds nothing to the righteousness he had while uncircumcised (rom 4:9-13, please read). The justification of Abraham in James is one by works. Abraham was not justified by works in genesisb15:6. He was justified by works years later when he offered up Isaac. Failure to see this will inevitably mess up the harmony.
James does not teach that Abraham was lost and condemned before offering up Isaac. However in Paul, before justification, which I before the washing of regeneration, one IS condemned. They are lost and guilty, then justified. (Titus 3:7).
Abraham’s justification is not one of the beginning of salvation it is one of later by obedience.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
My whole family is catholic. None serve christ. They go to church, but the practice of sin is tolerated. I was catholic all my life, dead in my sin. My friends were catholic. Dead in sin.
The catholic I witness to on the street, on campus, door to door, I’ve not met one that has heard a deep call to a while hearted repentance, a zealous serving of our lord. Most of then I’ve met live in sin.
And theybstill call themselves catholic.
Grant it many protestants are the same.
But I find more serving christ.
The catholic I witness to on the street, on campus, door to door, I’ve not met one that has heard a deep call to a while hearted repentance, a zealous serving of our lord. Most of then I’ve met live in sin.
And theybstill call themselves catholic.
Grant it many protestants are the same.
But I find more serving christ.
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thenobes
Guest
But God says he will not acquit the wicked. Thus our walk in His good works allowsGod justly the right to declare us justified at any point in our lives just by being aware of what we are doing.
So you see, it is not just His giving us the good works, but the fact that we are walking in them. Since God sees our works, or rather His gift of works to us, and how we carried them our, as a whole, it is indeed justification he grants to us through those works. God gives us works, and a living faith to begin doing them.
I’ll check to see where Paul may be speaking of works justifying us somtime prior to the “Last Day”. Maybe Ephesians Chapter 5: “Live in the Light, for light produces Righteousness.” Is this personal righteousness, where our righteousness is increased?
peace
steve
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Koineman
Guest
That’s a good explanation, but it still doesn’t harmonize James and Paul because it doesn’t take into account the fact that James likely has initial salvation also in view when he speaks of Rahab. For all we know, Rahab’s justification was her initial justification event, when she first passed from condemnation into justification.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Actually Paul says quite the opposite. ‘‘but to him who does not work but believes in God who justifies the wicked, his faith is counted for righteousness’’ (rom 4:4). Some translations say godly or impious. God really does justify the ungodly and he is righteous in the process(rom 3:25) Becquerel of Christ being a propitiation by his blood.
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