justification by faith alone in Early Fathers

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Protestants do not believe in a break from those two things.

We are both declared righteous because of our sins being forgiven by the sacrifice of Jesus, and we are necessarily and simultaneously made righteous by the Holy Spirit.

To break these apart is to not have salvation.
 
Protestants do not believe in a break from those two things.

We are both declared righteous because of our sins being forgiven by the sacrifice of Jesus, and we are necessarily and simultaneously made righteous by the Holy Spirit.

To break these apart is to not have salvation.
Erick in Christ,

You are the first non-Catholic Christian, other than high church, that has ever said that to me. I hear just the opposite over and over when it comes to justification. This is virtually codified in Protestant circles using Protestant quotations such as those I posted earlier.

In fact most Protestants will contend that we are not made righteous even when reborn, but instead are only “covered” by the righteousness of Jesus.

God bless.
 
Well, though I am no Presbyterian, Anglican, baptist, or Lutheran, all their confessions concerning this matter teach clearly (maybe the exception to Lutherans) that justification is the declaration that one is just but it is always accompanied by the regeneration of the holy spirit which makes men righteous in preperation for the day of judgement
 
Well, though I am no Presbyterian, Anglican, baptist, or Lutheran, all their confessions concerning this matter teach clearly (maybe the exception to Lutherans) that justification is the declaration that one is just but it is always accompanied by the regeneration of the holy spirit which makes men righteous in preperation for the day of judgement
Those confessions do not include an ontological righteousness as described by scripture. They describe an alien righteousness, where the man remains polluted and is merely covered by the righteousness of Christ. That is the substance of Luther’s teaching/analogy of the Christian being a dung hill covered with snow.

I hope that helps and God bless.
 
I have all those confessions. With the exception of Augsburg, none deny the ontological righteousness.
 
I have all those confessions. With the exception of Augsburg, none deny the ontological righteousness.
Hmmm…this is one of the things I find interesting about modern Protestantism which generally quite flexible in integrating Calvinism and Lutheranism with whatever vision each denomination currently finds compelling. Calvinism in its purest form admits to regeneration as ontological, but I often find that this is still considered separate from justification which is not considered ontological but only juridical. IMHO, scripture does not allow for such a separation.

God bless.
 
The scripture does allow for this tradition. Even the justification of Abraham spoken aboutbin James is not ontological, but a declaration or a pronouncement that he was righteous AFTER he did the work of offering Isaac, not before and in and throughout
 
The scripture does allow for this tradition. Even the justification of Abraham spoken aboutbin James is not ontological, but a declaration or a pronouncement that he was righteous AFTER he did the work of offering Isaac, not before and in and throughout
Erick in Christ,

Really…how do you know that? Besides, Abraham was justified on three separate occasions. Was he or was he not justified throughout? I have my own views on this in that I have done an extensive study of Abraham in conjunction with Paul and James’ statements concerning justification. We may or may not agree, but I don’t have enough from you to know one way or the other.

Scripture does not allow for our “initial justification”, for lack of a better term, to be anything other than ontological; otherwise the passage from Eph 2:8-10, Romans 5:9, Gal 3:21, and Romans 8:10 as described in a previous post become meaningless. Moreover, there are numerous other passages that demonstrate that our being brought into a state of righteousness is indeed ontological.

God bless.
 
I understand your insight on the close relationship. I have seen what you have seen, as I’ve already stated.

James says that Abraham was ‘‘justified’’ not before, not because of his intention, but only WHEN he offered him up. In other words, he was justified only at that moment when his work was complete. This came after his works. Therefore the justification is not some internal power making him decide and actually do what is right. It was a statement concerning Abraham after his work was done.

The proof of this is ‘‘was not Abraham justified by works WHEN he offered up Isaac.’’
 
I understand your insight on the close relationship. I have seen what you have seen, as I’ve already stated.

James says that Abraham was ‘‘justified’’ not before, not because of his intention, but only WHEN he offered him up. In other words, he was justified only at that moment when his work was complete. This came after his works. Therefore the justification is not some internal power making him decide and actually do what is right. It was a statement concerning Abraham after his work was done.

The proof of this is ‘‘was not Abraham justified by works WHEN he offered up Isaac.’’
Erick in Christ,

Abraham did what he did by the grace of God, and yes…he was justified by works. Everything is the result of grace, and that includes our initial justification.

By the way…I believe that Calvinist teaching is the same as Luther concerning works. Neither believes that works justify us…at least before God. Yet you seem to agree that works do justify. Thoughts?

I would also ask how you look at 1 Cor 6:11 where it says:

“But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

I believe that the order of the things mentioned is significant…what is your take on it?

God bless.
 
Paul teaches that God saved us through our faith in the gospel.

Ephesians 2:8-10
"For by grace you have been SAVED (past tense), through faith (CHANNEL OF RECEPTION), not of works (MERIT FROM MAN), it is the gift of God (FREE), lest any man should boast (FOR if Abraham was justified/saved by works he would have reason to boast).

For we are His workmanship, created (NEW CREATION/Regeneration) in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

Do you see the faith is the channel through which are “saved” (past tense). Now since we know that ultimate salvation is eschatological, we know that this is entering into the state of salvation, into a right-relationship with God, into the family of God.

What is this “Salvation”? It is a new creation in Christ Jesus, one in which makes us new men and women to walk in good works.
 
Paul teaches that God saved us through our faith in the gospel.

Ephesians 2:8-10
"For by grace you have been SAVED (past tense), through faith (CHANNEL OF RECEPTION), not of works (MERIT FROM MAN), it is the gift of God (FREE), lest any man should boast (FOR if Abraham was justified/saved by works he would have reason to boast).

For we are His workmanship, created (NEW CREATION/Regeneration) in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

Do you see the faith is the channel through which are “saved” (past tense). Now since we know that ultimate salvation is eschatological, we know that this is entering into the state of salvation, into a right-relationship with God, into the family of God.

What is this “Salvation”? It is a new creation in Christ Jesus, one in which makes us new men and women to walk in good works.
Erick in Christ,

Catholics would agree that faith is the root and you can find that in the CCC and other places.

Salvation is more than being made a new creation etc. Salvation is spoken of in scripture in the past, present, and future tenses.

I’m still unclear as to your think in regards to my questions.

God bless.
 
I do not believe that works other than repentance and faith, in the act of baptism, justify a person.

I do not see justification is an internal work of God that is definite and progressive from the moment of conversion onward until perfection. I think this is the Catholic version of justification. There is definitely the divine work of making the believers more righteous, and such could be called “justification”, the process of being made righteous, but the biblical authors fail to manage the word in this way. Rather, when the biblical authors wish to speak of our ongoing work of being made righteous, sometimes they are simply referring to faith or obedience or sanctification or being a slave to righteousness or sowing what one reaps, etc, etc.

If you look closely at the usage of the work (dikaioo) “justified” in the historical time period, the new testament documents itself, and particularly in Paul, you will see that it means a one-time definitive pronouncement or acceptance that someone or something is righteous or acceptable, innocent and freed from condemnation or accusation of wrong.

Matthew 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works.

Wisdom is not here to be understood as infused with right behavior which then later on after it is perfected comes to full justification. Rather, wisdom is being vindicated as right or praiseworthy because of something else, the works she produces.

What the Catholic wants to see from the text is the to be “justified” means to be internally given the holiness and goodness of behavior and obedience which once begun and finish, comprises the process of justification. But you will see that the word itself is never used this way. It is a very special term which is given to someone AFTER they have done something and are examined. Not before, in the means, and afterward, do you see?

Similarly, Romans 3:4 is of real importance for Paul uses the same word in reference to us just 20 verses later:
*
God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.*

Do you see when God is justified, it is not a process that begins before his speaks, in and throughout the process of his speaking, and finally then afterward. It is only AFTER his words are spoken, because they are righteous, that he is justified.

See Matthew 12:37, Luke 7:35, Luke 18:14, Acts 13:39, Romans 2:13, Romans 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 3:24, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:2, Romans 5:1, Romans 5:9, Romans 6:7, 1 Corinthians 4:4, James 2:21

That being said, justification is a gift of God’s grace which the NT authors define as being in a right-relationship with God (as Judge and law-giver) or the state of being accepted by God and in peace with Him. It is much more a state than a verdict, though it is a verdict.

I get this from Romans 5:1-5

Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;

2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness;

4 and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope:

5 and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us.

Do you see Paul expands this grace of justification to be something that we “enter”. And not just that but a place that we both “enter” and “stand on”. This is why I take the aspect of salvation, justification, to refer to the state of being in the family of God having peace with the Father. Justification is the prodigal son coming home to the Father and being embraced and accepted.

As to the role of our works in relationship to justification, well Paul finds no place for them. Justification is “free by the grace of God” (Rom 3:24) and “not by any deeds of righteousness which we have done” (Titus 3:7). However, justification is a pearl in the string of a necklace that God has done for us. Justification also denotes the freedom from sin’s enslavement. We are broken away from our Adamic human existence in Christ Jesus, and now reside in Christ the New Adam, and so live in the characteristics of this humanity- which is done by the Spirit- Love, joy, peace, patience, faithfulness, gentleness,etc,etc. This distinct “work” which comes out of the same cause (baptismal regeneration) is properly called sanctification, or if you want to call it justicfication, you can but without modifying the previous biblical definition of being right-with-God.

So when Paul says that the Corinthians have been “washed, justified, and sanctified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor 6:11) - he is recounting to them their baptismal graces which are all bound up in our participation with Christ in his death and resurrection. Out of this participation, we are cleanse, freed from sin’s guilt and power, and our souls have been purified to live holy.
 
We have to remember that the life of Abraham is not going to fully reveal what Paul is speaking about in Romans 3:21.

After all, Paul says “But now, the righteousness of God has been made manifest, apart from the Law, though testified by the Law and Prophets” (rom 3:21).

There is something “new” about this “righteousness of God” since it is only “now” being “manifested”. And so the testimony of Abraham’s faith being accounted for righteousness, rather than any work He did, was just a small typology of what would be so openly revealed so as to be normative later in the course of salvation history. Abraham was justified by faith, and not by any works of the Law. Abraham had simple faith in God’s promises and the obedience that came with it. These justify a man, no religious works in the flesh.

James does not speak of a justification of Abraham so as to bring him from damnation to salvation. Rather it was a test of faith that had been in Abraham for years and years. Therefore, we can conclude that it is Abraham’s faith which is justified, while the text says that Abraham himself was justified, for we know that he was already not condemned by God.
 
Faith and works can never be separated.

The only one that wants to do that is the devil so that people will stop at faith only by mortal sin and then he can take them to Hell!

Salvation being a branding is a lie!

Salvation being a one time discrete only event is a lie!

“BEING in the family of God” is not a one time discrete only event because the very meaning of the word BEING conotes CONTINUANCE.

CONTINUANCE can never be ONLY anything!

It can never be FAITH ONLY because faith CANNOT be discrete!

How can Paul have no use for WORKS when he says to “WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling”?

How do you WORK it out without WORKS?

And why would you FEAR and TREMBLE if the state of being in God’s grace was discrete and there was no chance that it would not change?

And why are there no ANSWERS to my questions?

Is the FAITH ALONE mind capable of an does it have the intellectual capacity to understand the concept of CONTINUANCE?

Is that too advanced a concept such that only a DISCRETE branding type salvation or justification can be comprehended?
 
Who said anything about salvation by faith alone?

Justification is by faith, and this is the act of the Father forgiving the sins of his prodigal son…the man who beat his breasts in the temple who cried out “God be merciful to me a sinner” (Luke) went home justified before God.

It is repentance, conversion, turning from sin, and faith in God which justifies a man, not outward physical rituals or ceremonies.

Those who do not persevere do not attain salvation…I am not sure what your questions are here.

Can Faith and Works be Separated? Not in practice, but in definition they can.
 
Erick,

Let talk about faith and not works, faith only, i would say that in the bible, faith is not the greatest factor for Justification, in fact, Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthian 13:13 Love is greater than Faith, so why do you boast about Faith when you should be boasting about Love? Since God is Love, i would say that there is Justification by Love and not Faith, I would say that you can err in Faith, that’s why there is a lot of denominations in the World but you cannot err on Love.

St. Paul even said that even if he has faith but no love he is nothing, so how come you can be justified by Faith when St. Paul said Faith is nothing without Love? Love is not a fruit of Faith since Love is greater than Faith.
Who said anything about salvation by faith alone?

Justification is by faith, and this is the act of the Father forgiving the sins of his prodigal son…the man who beat his breasts in the temple who cried out “God be merciful to me a sinner” (Luke) went home justified before God.

It is repentance, conversion, turning from sin, and faith in God which justifies a man, not outward physical rituals or ceremonies.

Those who do not persevere do not attain salvation…I am not sure what your questions are here.

Can Faith and Works be Separated? Not in practice, but in definition they can.
 
Yes and amen. faith that ha no love is not a saving faith but might even be demonic faith. But the problem is Paul always speaks of faith in terms of justifiication. Despitte love being better
 
If you look closely at the usage of the work (dikaioo) “justified” in the historical time period, the new testament documents itself, and particularly in Paul, you will see that it means a **one-time definitive pronouncement or acceptance **that someone or something is righteous or acceptable, innocent and freed from condemnation or accusation of wrong.
But is that pronouncement based on reality or merely a declaration? If it is based on reality, then the pronouncement that one is righteous is because that person really is internally righteous. The Protestant view of imputed righteousness denies this, saying that when God declares the sinner righteous, it is because of the alien righteousness, i.e., the righteousness of God credited to their account, whereas the Catholic says that when God declares the person righteous, it is because that person actually is righteous.

To get a fuller understanding of this, it helps to consider some uses of the other word that is tied closely to the justification question: logizomai. It’s the word translated “reckoned” in Galatians 3:6: “Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

But does that word, logizomai, refer merely to a declaration that is not intrinsically present in the subject, or does it refer to something that is real?

For example:

Romans 8:18: “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.”

The word “consider” is from logizomai. Paul was not declaring something that was not true; he was declaring reality: the sufferings of this present time really, truly are not worthy to be compared with the glory that will be revealed.

Hebrews 11:19: “He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.”

Abraham was considering (logizomai) the reality that God can raise people from the dead.

So, going back to Gal. 3:6, we can say that when God reckoned Abraham’s faith as righteousness, it really was righteousness in Abraham.
 
Hey. Thanks for responding. Something’s to think about

At the moment however, do the question of whether one is justified is based off of something real and actual? Yes for the scripture says ‘‘we are justified by his blood’’ (rom 5:9) and his ‘‘sacrifice and resurrection’’ (rom 4:25)
 
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