justification by faith alone in Early Fathers

[Koineman]

Hey. Thanks for responding. Something’s to think about

At the moment however, do the question of whether one is justified is based off of something real and actual? Yes for the scripture says ‘‘we are justified by his blood’’ (rom 5:9) and his ‘‘sacrifice and resurrection’’ (rom 4:25)

Certainly the basis of justification is Christ’s blood shed on the cross. There’s no way around that. He alone is the meritorious cause of our justification. But the point I was trying to make was regarding the actual state of the person who is justified, since that was the issue you were discussing. What a person actually is on the inside, and the basis of that condition, are two separate things.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Well I would say that if we are ‘‘justified by his blood’’ (rom 5:9) then this means that the gift of innocence is justification. And by repentance and conversion, which is just another way of describing faith, we receive this ‘‘remission of sin’’ (Luke 24).

 

[Pax]

Erick in Christ,

Early on you seem to agree that we are justified not only by faith but by works per James 2. In your latest posts you now seem to disagree with that position and appear to be stating that justification is by faith alone. What are you really saying? Your position is becoming less clear to me.

God bless.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I do not think that what Paul means when he says ‘‘therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the law’’ (rom 3:28) that faith is a mere assent to truth, but a formula word that encapsules repentance, baptism, and conversion to Christ as Lord. He is avoiding the Judaism of his day pressed on the gentile converts.

However justification is still the state of innocence given through baptism by virtue of participating in Christs death.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Now entering the gates of heaven depend on our works done in faith

 

[Pax]

Erick in Christ,

Are we or are we not justified by faith and works, or are we justified by faith alone? You said in an earlier post that:

James does not speak of a justification of Abraham so as to bring him from damnation to salvation. Rather it was a test of faith that had been in Abraham for years and years. Therefore, we can conclude that it is Abraham’s faith which is justified, while the text says that Abraham himself was justified, for we know that he was already not condemned by God.

Actually, we can only agree with what James says…we cannot say that Abraham’s faith was justified. As you pointed out, the text itself says that it was Abraham that was justified and not his faith. That same chapter in James also says that Rahab was justified by her works. I don’t think James made an error in either case by the way he stated it, and he surely does not mean something else.

We have plenty of additional evidence that indicates that James is speaking of the person being justified as opposed to their faith. If you were right we would also have to conclude that it was Abraham’s faith that was justified when Paul speaks of Abraham rather than Abraham being justified. None of that works. Faith is completed by works per James 2 and thus a person is also justified by works.

Moreover, the book of Hebrews really brings this home for us in spades. it is important to point out that Hebrews 11 begins with the following:

“NOW FAITH is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.”(Heb 11:1-3)

The passage then goes on to mention the faith of all of the many holy patriarchs, prophets, and martyrs of the OT including Abraham and Rahab.

In Hebrews 11:4 it says:
“By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous…” Abraham and Rahab are in the group listed after the statement about Abel, and also received approval as righteous in the instances cited.

Now let’s take a look at something very important.

In Genesis 15:6 we are told that “Abraham believed God concerning his descendants being as numerous as the stars, and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

The apostle Paul makes reference to this instance in his epistle to the Romans. In this regard he says:

Romans 4:16-25
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants–not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”–in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told, “So shall your descendants be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.” But the words, “it was reckoned to him,” were written not for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Here is what we can learn from this:

Paul gives his explanation and narrative about Abraham and then says, "This is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.” Paul mentions this so that we will examine and understand what the reasons are for this faith to be reckoned as righteousness. The reasons are first of all based on grace, and the promise of “descendents that would be as numerous as the stars and that he would father many nations.” So what are the reasons that Abraham’s faith was reckoned as righteousness?

Paul tells us that:

1. “In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told,”
2. “He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb.”
3. “No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.”

These three points are significant in several ways. Each one of them contains an element of works on the part of Abraham that satisfied and pleased God. It is through these things in faith that Abraham receives divine approval.

The most telling part of this is in reason #2. We have to recognize that Abraham was, as Paul points out, “as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old.” Moreover, Sarah was by this time barren. This combination would normally mean that there would be no children. Yet God promised Abraham that he would be the father of nations and that his descendents would be as numerous as the stars.

cont.'d on next post

 

[Pax]

cont’d from prior post

By grace, faith, and the power of God Abraham and Sarah gave birth to Isaac. Thus the promise was fulfilled.

A crucial aspect of this is revealed to us by Paul when he says that Abraham was about a hundred years old and as good as dead and that Sarah was barren. Paul is delicately and courteously making it clear that Abraham was too old to sire children. Likewise, he states that Sarah was barren. In Genesis 18:12 we are told that Sarah laughs upon hearing that she and Abraham will bear children.

The passage says: "So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have grown old, and my husband is old, shall I have pleasure?”

This again is a delicately stated phrase describing the lack of a sex life of this couple at that stage of their lives. Nevertheless, these two people believed God. Moreover, they engaged in marital relations and God blessed them with Isaac and God fulfilled the promise.

The promise would not have been fulfilled had Abraham not had relations with Sarah. Abraham and Sarah were pretty much incapable of marital relations and most certainly child bearing at that stage in their lives, but they believed God and engaged in marital relations. The ability and power to do so were granted to them by way of God’s grace. By grace and faith they begat Isaac.

Without that work or activity on their part the promise would not have been fulfilled by God. If the promise was not fulfilled because of this work/action Abraham would not have been the father of many nations. Abraham would not have been justified because he would not have completed his faith by that action. Abraham’s faith would not have been reckoned to him as righteousness.

The same kind of thing is evident in reading Hebrews chapter 11. Each of the holy figures cited had faith and their faith was associated with something they did. Even Henry’s Concise Commentary, a non-Catholic source, recognizes that Hebrews Chapter 11 is talking about the justifying faith of the patriarchs, prophets, and martyrs of the Old Testament. Henry’s Commentary says:

“Text: - Ver. 1-3 Faith always has been the mark of God’s servants, from the beginning of the world. Where the principle is planted by the regenerating Spirit of God, it will cause the truth to be received, concerning justification by the sufferings and merits of Christ. And the same things that are the object of our hope, are the object of our faith. It is a firm persuasion and expectation, that God will perform all he has promised to us in Christ.”

Hebrews Chapter 11 tells us that:

Verse 4: By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous,

Verse 5: By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.

Verse 6: And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Verse 7: By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith.

Verses 8-10: By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Verses 11-12: By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.

Verse 13.: These all died in faith.

In verse 31, Rahab is also mentioned and we know from James that she was “justified” in that example.

This is righteousness and justification and every example includes faith and the works that completed it. This is made very explicit in Hebrews when the author talks about Abel as his initial example. It is also eminently clear that the faith of these individuals would be meaningless if they defied God and failed to live out their faith in the actions described above. None of them would have received divine approval. All of those mentioned are examples of OT justified saints.

Faith justifies and works also justify, and faith without works is dead and does not justify.

I hope that helps and God bless.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

This does not help.

‘‘For if Abraham was justified by works, he has reason to boast’’ Romans 2:1-17

‘’ was not Abraham justified by works when he offered up isaac’’? ( James 2)

James points to works which Abraham did, Paul points out faith

 

[Pax]

Erick in Christ,

In an earlier post you brought up the parable of the Prodigal Son as evidence of justification with the idea that it represents God bringing an unbeliever/sinner to belief and justification.

That parable actually contradicts the point you are attempting to make. In the parable the son is already a member of the father’s household just as Christians are sons and daughters in the Father’s household. The prodigal son chose, however, to leave the household and he squandered his inheritance. That is exactly what we do when we as Christians turn from God to live a life of sin. The really telling part of the parable is when the son returns home. His father says the following in Luke 15: 22-24:

Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet; and bring the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry; for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to make merry.

Clearly, the prodigal son was not in friendship with the father when he left and squandered his inheritance. He was considered dead but upon his return is alive again. He is restored again to the household and is in friendship with the father. That restoration is justification, but it is not the first time that the son was justified. He had already been a member of the household.

Justification is not a one time event and justification can be by works as well as by faith. Moreover, and once again, faith is completed by works per James, and it is those works that complete faith that can be said to justify a man. And make no mistake, it is the man that is justified and not his faith.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

This does not help.

‘‘For if Abraham was justified by works, he has reason to boast’’ Romans 2:1-17

‘’ was not Abraham justified by works when he offered up isaac’’? ( James 2)

James points to works which Abraham did, Paul points out faith

Erick in Christ,

It should help a great deal. Remember, Paul is making a point about justification by faith, and it is certainly true. He is not, however, saying that we are justified by faith alone. Remember, he never once says that. James and Peter’s letters both follow the letters of Paul in the order of the bible. This is no accident, and I firmly believe that their letters contain correctives that arose from misunderstandings concerning Paul’s teaching. James so much so that he gets very sarcastic in verse 2:20 and says:

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?

Other translations use the following in lieu of “shallow man”:

vain man, fool, empty person, and even idle boaster.

Peter points out in his second letter chapter 3 verse 16 that:

,there are some things in them[Paul’s letters] hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

Paul, himself, even says in Romans 3 that some people actually slander his teaching saying that it suggests something other than taught.

Here’s the deal. Yes, we are saved by faith when initially justified. That is by grace and has nothing to do with anything we’ve done and we have no reason to boast. Likewise, per Eph 2:8-10 we are made by God a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works which the Father prepared in advance. Those works also justify. Nevertheless, they are the Father’s work. We do not make ourselves a new creation, we did not prepare the works that we are to do. Moreover, we do not do the works on our own. Every good thing done by the Christian in Christ is by way of grace and we have no reason to boast in ourselves.

Please think about Mother Therese of Calcutta. No one, and I mean no one, could do what she did over her life time on their own. No one, and she certainly didn’t, can take credit for what she accomplished. It was all by the grace of God. Grace enables and empowers us to do God’s will. All of the credit and glory go to God.

So, Abraham clearly has no reason to boast about his faith or his works as if he earned something. That is simply the wrong way to look at works versus faith when the source for both is God.

God bless.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But Paul’s argument is that if Abraham had been justified by works, he would have reason to boast. He is not qualifying these “works” as those done in pride and self-righteous boasting, but simply points to the logic of wages and labor. If Abraham had done some work which then made him righteous before God, then the logic is that Abraham was justified by this work (no matter how much faith he had prior to or in the means).

At some level, works and faith do not work together. I understand James says that Abraham’s faith was working together with his works to bring faith to it’s intended goal. But as St. Paul says “For by grace you have been saved, through faith, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8-10). Works and faith are not partners in this statement. Why is this not understood? Saved through faith, and not of works. Does this mean that the saved person by faith doesn’t have to do good works? Of course not, but it does mean that “salvation” bestowed was not of works, it was of faith.

Now, if you are trying to say that being made alive (Eph 2) and justification are two of the same species… I can take some time for agreeing to this…

For I know that in Colossians 2:11-15

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also*** raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God***, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were ***dead *in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

You see I confess the truth that “faith” alone is the means of salvation here, since the putting off the body of the flesh, buried with him in baptism, and being raised with Him, and being made alive together with Christ are NOT accomplished by faith AND works, but St. Paul says only faith.

Now this “faith” is not just belief in the facts, but it is a special word in Paul that refers to the repentance and conversion of a person upon hearing the message of the gospel and undergoing baptism. Yes, there is human volition which is at work making decisions which are conditional for salvation, but such are not “works” in the meritorious Pauline sense (Rom 9:5-10), that are diametric to grace.

But notice how in the midst of this “being made alive” there is a legal consequence of being “forgiven”?? This, at the moment, is what I believe is justification.**

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Was Abraham justified in Genesis 15:6?

Was this justification based on his faith? Or was it his works? Or was it both?

Abraham’s faith was considered to God as “righteousness”, which means that Abraham’s faith was what justified himself, not something other than faith…which is just another way of saying “faith alone”.

When Abraham was justified at the offering of Isaac, this was a work which Abraham did, and by it he was justified.

We have to understand here that if Abraham does a work before God, it is assumed that he also has faith. I see many catholics insisting that they do not teach a justification by works, but the thing is, faith is already at work in someone who is working for God. Therefore to add “and faith” makes no difference.

 

[Pax]

Was Abraham justified in Genesis 15:6?

Was this justification based on his faith? Or was it his works? Or was it both?

Abraham’s faith was considered to God as “righteousness”, which means that Abraham’s faith was what justified himself, not something other than faith…which is just another way of saying “faith alone”.

When Abraham was justified at the offering of Isaac, this was a work which Abraham did, and by it he was justified.

We have to understand here that if Abraham does a work before God, it is assumed that he also has faith. I see many catholics insisting that they do not teach a justification by works, but the thing is, faith is already at work in someone who is working for God. Therefore to add “and faith” makes no difference.

Erick in Christ,

Maybe I’m not making myself clear, so I will repeat myself again. Refer once again to Eph 2:8-10. That verse makes it clear that our initial justification is soley the work of God’s grace and that nothing we did in advance had anything to do with it. That is what Paul is speaking of in using Abraham as an example. On that score we agree with all non-Catholics.

That, however, does not mean that there is never any justification at other times by works. I gave plenty of scripture and examples to demonstrate that. Moreover, scripture indicates that Abraham was justified on three separate occasions. One of them is clearly by faith while the others are by works done in faith. Likewise, faith is completed by works and that also justifies.

The non-Catholic view can only be correct if Abraham was justified only once, but that clearly is not the case. Moreover, I supplied an abundance of scripture to show that justification is also by works. I never claimed, however, that our initial entry into the household of God was by works. Are you starting to get the gist of this?

God bless.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But the argument in romans is not that “salvation” in the new covenant is supposed to copy what was characteristic of Abraham.

For Paul, there is only 1 justification unless there is apostacy.

Going by that rule, Abraham was justified 6 times.

But you see in Paul, to not be justified is to be condemned (Rom 8:34)

Those statuses before each justification of Abraham is not one of condemnation, but of justification. Therefore this is why Paul’s understanding of the present day covenant differs from the way in which things were dealt with back when.

In other words, Romans 3:21 signifies a newness to the “righteousness” revealed in the gospel. And this newness consists in the once-for-all nature of it. Of course, the condition of staying within the state of justification is perserverance.

But in the NT, there is no statement or indication that a believer continues to go from condemnation to justification on and on and on.

If Abraham was justified 6 times, this is a growth in his righteousness, not in his meriting a relationship with God.

 

[marlo]

Paul meant that Justification by Faith should be complete, he states that we need to add a lot of things to faith. Paul enumerated these things in 2Peter 1:5 - 9

And beside this, giving all diligence, **add to your faith **virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

See, you cannot be justified by faith alone, you need to add a lot to Faith, and with all of these combined, Faith and Works then you will be justified, since Faith without Work is dead.

Yes and amen. faith that ha no love is not a saving faith but might even be demonic faith. But the problem is Paul always speaks of faith in terms of justifiication. Despitte love being better

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Just for the record–we are not justified by faith alone OR by faith AND works!

We are justified by faith THROUGH works!

It is certainly true that Abraham couldn’t be justified by faith AND works if one were talking about FAITH being what God would do for Abraham and works–if by works you mean something that Abraham would INITIATE and would merit for himself.

But the truth is is that “God willed works” as opposed to any works that Abraham would INITIATE and could boast of and would merit for himself–those “God willed works” are done by Abraham NOT on his INITIATION by his COOPERATING with God’s grace.

But SEE–faith ALONE is not what saves–and it is not faith AND works–if that was the case then man could boast–but FAITH THROUGH “God willed works” does justify.

And that justification DOES NOT NECESSARILY always follow from INITIAL faith.

It can result from INITIAL faith but does not ALWAYS NECESSARILY follow from it.

Say a man immediately after baptism leaves Church and runs into a homeless man on the way to the parking lot where his car is–it is God’s will that he give the homeless man some money!

The man KNOWS that God WILLS that he–a JUSTIFIED man in Christ–should give the man money.

The man REFUSES to help the man.

The man has MORTALLY sinned by OPPOSING God.

His first JUSTIFICATION of an hour before at his baptism means nothing because he won’t “Feed the hungry” as Christ commanded in the beatitudes.

Then a drunk person runs off the road into the parking lot and kills the man who was JUSTIFIED in baptism and then MORTALLY sinned by not helping the poor!

The man goes to Hell!

WHO CARES that he was justified at baptism–he goes to Hell because he dies in a state of MORTAL sin!

Grace that JUSTIFIES FLOWS from INITIAL faith–which is a gift of God–THROUGH “God willed works” that he wants done.

Now is it just the START of the flow that counts? Is it is just the end that counts? Or Is it both ends of the process that counts?

OR–is it the whole PROCESS that counts?

The WHOLE PROCESS of grace–the faith THROUGH God willed works" that is what counts!

Justification and sanctification are not two separate events–they are two linked events.

Paul doesn’t speak AGAINST the linkage–when he speaks of WORKS not justifying he is speaking of works SEPARATE from initial faith justifying.

See Catholics would say that WORKS separate from INITIAL faith do not justify–they would though say that WORKS that come form INITIAL faith andf though “Gow willed works” DO JUSTIFY!

The reason why Satan INSISTS on definitions that SEPARATE faith and works in the PROCESS of faith through “God willed works” is because that is the way that Satan can bring people to hell!

All he has to do is have people not worry about doing “God willed works”.

When they don’t MORTAL sin separates initial faith from “God willed works”–the person is in a state of mortal sin–and if they die they go to Hell!

What is the value of GLORIFYING initial justifying faith from God as a free gift IF you denigrate the entire process of that faith flowing THOUGH “God willed works”–one dies-and then one goes to Hell!

WHO CARES about initial faith if the result is that it is lost and one winds up in Hell?!

it must never be forgotten that man must COOPERATE with God by not getting in the way of God–in other words COOPERATE by LETTING God’s grace continue to FLOW!

But that is not as EASY as FAITH ALONE!

Faith isn’t alone–faith flows–the ENTIRE FLOW–not parts of the flow is what JUSTIFIES–the entire FLOW is a gift of God–no one can boast of anything they do–but it still requires that man COOPERATE with that FLOW of God’s grace by doing NOTHING to get in its way!

that IS what man does in salvation with his gift of free will from God!

Show me a person who believes in EITHER justification by faith or justification by faith alone and does not believe in MORTAL sin or that the ENTIRE process of faith flowing through “God willed works” by cooperation of the free will of man and I WILL show you a person who at any point that they mortally sin is:

in danger of Hell by dying in a state of mortal sin!

Does the faith alone crowd revel in initial justification SO MUCH that they are more concerned with IT than by MORTAL sin which can damn a person to hell?

Let’s get REAL–the REAL reason the “faith alone” crowd exists is not that they’re CONCERNED about another group of people that can go to Hell because they believe that they are justified by their man initiated works–

The REAL REASON they exist is because it is EASIER to attain salvation if you could care less about MORTAL SIN and the ENTIRE process of salvation from initial faith THROUGH “God willed works” unto death!

And the main person that WANTS people to have this attitude is the devil!

Singing “Blessed Assurance”–slapping one another on the back with joy–and looking disdainfully at others who are thought to be trying to gain their salvation by man initiated works will not save those people when the REALITY of MORTAL sin happens and death comes unexpectedly Preaching that people can’t get to heaven by their own “man initiated works” is LAUDABLE

BUT

What is more LAUDABLE is telling all of those who are saved by God’s free gift that they can LOSE that free gift through MORTAL sin!

the GOOD NEW is not just about INITIAL faith saving it is about PERSEVERING in that free gift by not mortally sinning!

how does one not MORTALLY sin–the same way as they are first saved–by COOPERATING with God by not opposing Cim!

Catholics like Protestants believe that FAITH SAVES and that God does all the saving!

Catholics however believe in the WHOLE truth of salvation–the cooperating of man part and the persevering part!

Satan uses the smallest deviation from the Fullness of truth to lead souls to Hell!

that was how “faith alone” during the reformation came to be!

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yes, your brightness but when I say faith alone, I believe it includes these other things. It excludes pharasaic righteousness.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

But it doesn’t ALWAYS and necessarily include those things!

And since it doesn’t always and necessarily include those things you CAN’T say that FAITH ALONE is always and NECESSARILY the ONLY thing that JUSTIFIES!

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But I think that faith does include those things.

Faith also con notates faithfulness, no?

The perversion in James of people like Demons who believe in God but shudder, is not a true faith.

In other words, if we can understand “faith” to be assumed as a living faith which includes worship, service, perserverance, love, etc,etc then James would agree we are justified by faith alone.

However, if one wants to pervert this (which is what I think james is speaking against) understanding “faith” as just mere assent, then yes we are justified by this kind of mental assent plus works. .

I think we’ve reached an agreement.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

BTW I meant to say “your right” not “Your brightness”