justification by faith alone in Early Fathers

[Jerry-Jet]

No we haven’t reached an agreement because faith does not ALWAYS and NECESSARILY result in “God willed works”

A justified saved person in Christ CAN after being saved and JUSTIFIED can MORTALLY sin.

In that case–though the INITIAL faith and justification in Christ did in fact occur–MORTAL sin cuts off the flow!

I maintain that since it does cut off the flow that you can’t say that faith alone ALWAYS and NECESSARILY is the only thing that justifies–if that were true then the justified would be incapable of mortal sin and FAITH ALONE would ALWAYS and NECESSARILY result in “God willed works”!

OR you would believe that no matter how much man sinned after his initial BRANDING and justification through faith that God would not MIND that he sins

like Luther you would believe that that man COULD enter heaven like dung clothed with Christ’s righteousness!

in other words the Almighty God would be IMPOTENT to give man grace enough to transform him enough to holiness and that the devil would always have the man depraved!

It never ceases to amaze me how Protestanst believe more in the devil and the DEPRAVITY that the devil can impart to them

Than how much grace God can give them and how he can transform them!

Do you believe that God gives man freedom of will to the point that He–since He is love and Paul writes of love–that “love does not demand it’s own way”-- will LET a justified person commit mortal sin?

If that is so then FAITH ALONE does not always and necessarily result in “God willed works” which we would both agree can not be pharasaical because God is willing them!

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

The simple matter is that faith is the beginning of our justification not the completion of it, therefore we are not justified by faith alone. If “love is the fulfillment of the law” and if we will be judged-which means we will either justified or condemned-by our works then how we love or fail to love determines our final justification.

So if justification comes from faith and love-“the obedience of faith”-then you have added something to faith.

Faith+“x” does not equal “faith alone”.

So you cannot be justified by faith alone; just as James says in his epistle.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Paul says we are justified from faith to faith.

It is faithfulness to God not ritual works

 

[Church_Militant]

Paul says we are justified from faith to faith.

Okay, so you can quote Romans 1:17, but the whole rest of the context of that chapter addresses non-believers and even those who may not hear the Gospel, so again I think you’re hoisted on your own petard.

It is faithfulness to God not ritual works

What “ritual works” would those be?
Can’t be condemning baptism since it’s mandated by Our Blessed Lord and the apostles right there in the New Testament. See How Is A Catholic Saved? & Baptism~ Necessary or Not? & “I Find No Sacraments In the Bible” he said.

So then, what are these supposed “ritual works”?

(Did you get those Catechisms yet?)

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I’ve had the catechism.

I understand it to teach that pagans and idolaters cab be saved through the grace of christ who don’t ever get a chance. But some here even say if they have heard the gospel that can be saved even if they refuse to believe.

The sin of the gentiles elicits gods wrath, no? (Rom 1:18), not grace or salvation. Jews as well are under the wrath of God.

Faith in Jesus delivers one from the wrath to come (1 these 1:9)

 

[Koineman]

I’ve had the catechism.

I understand it to teach that pagans and idolaters cab be saved through the grace of christ who don’t ever get a chance.

Can you quote that, along with the Catechism paragraph number?

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Can’t right now.

But I know it says that those who are of invincible ignorance will go to heaven by the grace of God

 

[Koineman]

Can’t right now.

But I know it says that those who are of invincible ignorance will go to heaven by the grace of God

Okay, but when you get a chance, please provide the text along with the paragraph number.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But in the time being

Consider how Paul prays for the Jews to be saved and that their lostness remains until the end. If Paul thought that Jews can get to heaven by loving their neighbor why would he call them blind and lost and broken off? They can only be put back in through faith

 

[Pax]

But I think that faith does include those things.

Faith also con notates faithfulness, no?

The perversion in James of people like Demons who believe in God but shudder, is not a true faith.

In other words, if we can understand “faith” to be assumed as a living faith which includes worship, service, perserverance, love, etc,etc then James would agree we are justified by faith alone.

However, if one wants to pervert this (which is what I think james is speaking against) understanding “faith” as just mere assent, then yes we are justified by this kind of mental assent plus works. .

I think we’ve reached an agreement.

Erick in Christ,

James says that the demons “believe.” There is nothing in that statement that suggests something other than “true” faith. The difference in the case of the demons is not their level of belief or the quality thereof. The problem is that they believe and yet remain at enmity with God and have no love for God. Think about that for awhile and then answer the following question for me:

Can a person be saved that has no love for God?

Thanks and God bless.

 

[Pax]

Erick in Christ,

You still deny that there is any justification by works. Please check out the following verse and let me know your take on this:

Then they attached themselves to the Baal of Peor, and ate sacrifices offered to the dead; they provoked the Lord to anger with their doings, and a plague broke out among them. Then Phinehas stood up and interposed, and the plague was stayed. And that has been reckoned to him as righteousness from generation to generation for ever[Psalm 106:28-31].

God bless.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yes a person must love God.

And with regard to ‘‘faith’’ I believe that James and Paul are nit referring to the same thing. In Paul, Romans 1:1-15 he says that the faith of the Romans is being spoken about throughout the whole world. That apostleship is for obedience of faith, referring to faith itself, not a difference between obedience and faith. Rather faith is obedience in this sense

 

[Pax]

Yes a person must love God.

And with regard to ‘‘faith’’ I believe that James and Paul are nit referring to the same thing. In Paul, Romans 1:1-15 he says that the faith of the Romans is being spoken about throughout the whole world. That apostleship is for obedience of faith, referring to faith itself, not a difference between obedience and faith. Rather faith is obedience in this sense

Erick in Christ,

If one must love God then we are not saved by faith alone.

The obedience of faith is not a reference to faith itself. Faith demands obedience and obedience is necessary for salvation. Once again, we are not saved by faith alone.

God bless.

 

[ConstantineTG]

apuritansmind.com/justification/the-early-church-and-justification-compiled-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

Even Clement taught that we are justified by faith alone. The ‘‘3rd pope’’

Note that context is everything. For the Church Fathers, faith and works always come together. They don’t go into the lengths of inserting “and works” back then because it was a non-issue. They cannot address an issue that did not exist during their time, it is not like St. Clement was thinking, “oh, I better make sure people know I mean faith AND works because 1400 years from now a heretical monk will lead people astray.”

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

If faith alone does not justify a man, then why does Paul say that Abraham was justified by faith apart from works? (Rom 3:27; 4
:1-2)???

Even Robert sungenis recognizes that this is referring to all components of the law. Read his book not by faith alone.

Augustine and catholic teaching do not teach that ‘‘works of law’’ are exclusivley ritual ceremonial works.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If faith alone does not justify a man, then why does Paul say that Abraham was justified by faith apart from works? (Rom 3:27; 4
:1-2)???

Even Robert sungenis recognizes that this is referring to all components of the law. Read his book not by faith alone.

Augustine and catholic teaching do not teach that ‘‘works of law’’ are exclusivley ritual ceremonial works.

Didn’t God test Abraham? Did Abraham acted on this test?

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But Abraham was justified by faith apart from works, on the principles of free grace (Romans 3:24).

I am honestly trying to understand the truth of this, so please don’t put it past me.

How are we to understand Paul’s insistence that we are 1) justified by faith apart from works as a free gift and 2) Paul’s constant grounding our justification in the blood if Jesus.

There are a total of 5 times that Paul locates the cause of our justification in the death of Jesus for our sin. (Romans 3:24-25; 4:7-9; 4:25; 5:9, 18)

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Because Faith is never alone brother.

It is a gift given to us by God’s Grace. You can’t have Faith without God’s Grace.

Faith is the response to the calling of that Grace. It is not by ourselves but by His Grace. However, we must act. Faith without works is dead, like James explained. So that Faith is never alone.

If you read the next 2 chapters in I Clement, you’ll see that he immediately stresses the need for the Faith to reflect good works.

Here’s Clement’s letter to the Corinthians:

I Clement

Here’s from the letter:

CHAPTER 32 – WE ARE JUSTIFIED NOT BY OUR OWN WORKS, BUT BY FAITH.

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven.” All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

CHAPTER 33 – BUT LET US NOT OWE UP THE PRACTICE OF GOOD WORKS AND LOVE. GOD HIMSELF IS AN EXAMPLE TO US OF GOOD WORKS.

What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them. He also divided the earth from the water which surrounds it, and fixed it upon the immoveable foundation of His own will. The animals also which are upon it He commanded by His own word into existence. So likewise, when He had formed the sea, and the living creatures which are in it, He enclosed them [within their proper bounds] by His own power. Above all, with His holy and undefiled hands He formed man, the most excellent [of His creatures], and truly great through the understanding given him – the express likeness of His own image. For thus says God: “Let us make man in Our image, and after Our likeness. So God made man; male and female He created them.” Having thus finished all these things, He approved them, and blessed them, and said, “Increase and multiply.” We see, then, how all righteous men have been adorned with good works, and how the Lord Himself, adorning Himself with His works, rejoiced. Having therefore such an example, let us without delay accede to His will, and let us work the work of righteousness with our whole strength.

CHAPTER 34 – GREAT IS THE REWARD OF GOOD WORKS WITH GOD. JOINED TOGETHER IN HARMONY, LET US IMPLORE THAT REWARD FROM HIM.

The good servant receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is requisite, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well-doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: “Behold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his work.” He exhorts us, therefore, with our whole heart to attend to this, that we be not lazy or slothful in any good work. Let our boasting and our confidence be in Him. Let us submit ourselves to His will. Let us consider the whole multitude of His angels, how they stand ever ready to minister to His will. For the Scripture says, “Ten thousand times ten thousand stood around Him, and thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and cried, Holy, holy, holy, the Lord of Sabaoth; the whole creation is full of His glory.” And let us therefore, conscientiously gathering together in harmony, cry to Him earnestly, as with one mouth, that we may be made partakers of His great and glorious promises. For [the Scripture] says, “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man, the things which He has prepared for those who wait for Him.”

Justification is not achieved by works without Faith. This is why it leads to believe that it is Faith alone. When in fact, it is a succession of events initiated by God’s Grace.

In Christ Alone ,

Jose

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But again, Paul says that Abraham was justified by faith, right? Apart from works? Yes. And we know the works here are moral and ceremonial, and we know that faith is distinct from works since it is possible to have it like a demon with no work.

How then do we not understand Abraham being justified by faith alone?

Of course works flow from faith when it is saving and alive. But justification cokes apart from works, by faith without anything else

 

[Odell]

But Abraham was justified by faith apart from works, on the principles of free grace (Romans 3:24).

I am honestly trying to understand the truth of this, so please don’t put it past me.

How are we to understand Paul’s insistence that we are 1) justified by faith apart from works as a free gift and 2) Paul’s constant grounding our justification in the blood if Jesus.

There are a total of 5 times that Paul locates the cause of our justification in the death of Jesus for our sin. (Romans 3:24-25; 4:7-9; 4:25; 5:9, 18)

I realize I’m coming at this a little late so bare with me if I repeat anything already mentioned.

You must realize when Paul is talking about works or the law he is either condemning or it saves Rom 2:13.

In Rom 8:14 we have Paul saing that the righteous requirements of the law are fully met in us by not living according to sin.

The works that justify and the faith that justifies is only possible because God looks at us through the eyes of grace. This is only possible because it is grounded in the blood of Christ. We must not picture God as an unemotional courtroom judge who is personally unharmed by our sin. God is personally offended by sin and thus he needs to be personally APPEASED in order to offer a personal forgiveness in so doing looking at both our faith and works graciously accepting them.

If this is not so then your faith would not even be acceptable to him. Surely no ones faith including yours is sufficient enough to satify God. God accepts our faith by his grace. He also does the same for our works this is all done by the same principles of free grace.

I have more but am limited on time.