Justification by Faith Alone

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Sirach14

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" The doctrine of justification by faith alone ( from which flows ’ once saved, always saved’) originated with Martin Luther in 1517. No one believed it before he proposed it. Why is it that the Holy Spirit led no one to the doctrine of justification by faith alone for nearly 1,500 years? Protestants interpret Jn 16:13 to mean Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would guide us individuallly to all truth ( Catholics believe Jesus made that promise to His apostles so they could lead His Church in truth). If that’s true, why did He let billions of people over 15 centuries be deceived? Either Jesus lied, didn’t know what He was talking about, or the 475-year-old doctrine of faith alone is false."
 
Sirach14 said:
" The doctrine of justification by faith alone ( from which flows ’ once saved, always saved’) originated with Martin Luther in 1517. No one believed it before he proposed it. Why is it that the Holy Spirit led no one to the doctrine of justification by faith alone for nearly 1,500 years? Protestants interpret Jn 16:13 to mean Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would guide us individuallly to all truth ( Catholics believe Jesus made that promise to His apostles so they could lead His Church in truth). If that’s true, why did He let billions of people over 15 centuries be deceived? Either Jesus lied, didn’t know what He was talking about, or the 475-year-old doctrine of faith alone is false."
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I think it’s possible that so far you’ve received 30 views and no answers because there IS no answer.
 
I can’t resist! I won’t make this long, but I will say a few things:

The Reformers doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone may be the starting grounds in some way of the “Eternal Security” opinion, or the “Carnal Christian” Heresy, but I’m not convinced that can be proven. “Once saved always saved” can be interpreted to mean something very glorious, with a proper understanding of the Calvinist Doctrine of Limited Atonement and Perseverance of the Saints.

I take it you are thoroughly knowledgeable with the “5 Points” of Calvinism and the grounds for believing Sola Fide, so I won’t give the standard arguments. But rather I will say, for someone who believes it, Trent’s anathemas will do nothing to phase their beliefs.

However, here are a few quotes from Church Fathers that you may find interesting:

Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
32:3 So all of them received honor and greatness, not through themselves or their own deeds or the right things they did, but through His will. And we, therefore, who by His will have been called in Jesus Christ, are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight or religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning.

Justin Martyr’s 1st Apology, Dialogue w/ Trypho
Abraham, indeed, was considered just, not by reason of his circumcision, but because of his faith. For before his circumcision it was said of him: Genesis 15:6

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Ch. 5, Sect. 5

The Lord, therefore, was not unknown to Abraham, whose day he desired to see;nor, again, was the Lord’s Father, for he had learned from the Word of the Lord, and believed Him; wherefore it was accounted to him by the Lord for righteousness. For faith towards God justifies a man; and therefore he said, “I will stretch forth my hand to the most high God, who made the heaven and the earth.” All these truths, however, do those holding perverse opinions endeavour to overthrow, because of one passage, which they certainly do not understand correctly.

Same, Chapter 9, Sect. 1

For the Lord is the good man of the house, who rules the entire house of His Father; and who delivers a law suited both for slaves and those who are as yet undisciplined; and gives fitting precepts to those that are free, and have been justified by faith, as well as throws His own inheritance open to those that are sons

And Scripturally, I would ask you this question that plagues me about the Catholic view of Justification:

Romans 4:9-11
Is this blessing then upon the circumcised, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign or the faith which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe without being circumcised…"

How could Abraham be righteous before he was circumcised, since circumcision is the OT type of Baptism. I say that he was righteous in the eyes of God (Justified) by his faith alone, before he did any works commanded by God in His Law, yea even before the command came! Circumcision was introduced in the Covenant given in Genesis 18! And Abraham obeyed, and that’s proof of his faith, that it is a true faith, as James speaks of, a living faith not a dead faith.
 
A couple of points to ponder:
  • St Paul’s Epistles, most notably to the Romans, makes the point. Luther just emphasized it. Paul is pretty good authority in the Catholic church.
  • It’s not just “faith alone” it’s “grace alone” / “Faith alone”. We hold that because of the grace given as a result of Christ’s death on the cross, we are saved.
  • If you consult the Joint Declaration by the Catholic and Lutheran churches, you’ll see that Catholic theology doesn’t differ that greatly from Lutheran. One of the disputes is around the effect of sanctifying grace, continuing to support one’s journey of salvation.
I’d suggest that anyone who understands the Catholic doctrine and dogma on “Grace alone” and “Faith alone” wouldn’t find too many big issues to debate with Lutherans. We’re closer than you think.

Peace,
John
 
Just an addendum to this before we get off target.

I, for one do not look to Luther’s teaching as very helpful in understanding Justification. Maybe I’m just dissuaded from him by certain fancies he held regarding certain books of Scripture, and the fact that he entertained the idea that a person could commit fornication a thousand times a day, yet if he had faith, he would still be saved (Luther’s Letter to Philip Melanchthon on August 1, 1521). But I’m not a Luther expert, so I could be misrepresenting him. However, I do think Calvin and later Reformers were more consistent with the effects of grace in a man’s life, and mortifying sin in the flesh. Quite consistent, like the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Colossians, ch. 3.

I think that it may be helpful, in discussing this, to clarify what we actually mean by “Justification.” I will use the definition in the Westminster Larger Catechism Question #71
What is Justification?
- Justification is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners, in which He pardons all their sins, accepteth and accounteth their persons righteous in His sight; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them, and received by faith alone.

And as a Presbyterian, I should add that faith justifies a sinner in the eyes of God by being the alone instrument, from God, by which God applies Christ and His righteousness to a person. Justification is imputed to a person when God gives that person faith. Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. True faith requires knowledge, to know that one must earnestly repent of their sinful life and submit to Christ as King and Saviour.

** John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His Name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So, what do you Catholics mean when you say “Justification.”?? Please define it for us Protestants.

I plan to pursue this topic if others keep it going.
 
Also keep in mind that when a Catholic and a Protestant talk about faith, they are frequently talking about two different things. The protest view is frequently referring to a fully developed faith that produces good works.
 
Steve M:
Also keep in mind that when a Catholic and a Protestant talk about faith, they are frequently talking about two different things. The protest view is frequently referring to a fully developed faith that produces good works.
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…whereas Catholics speak of a fully developed faith which is active. Or as Paul states it "faith working through love (Gal 5:6).

The “produces good works” one seems to take free will out of the equation.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
James Buchanan states that justification by faith is a legal or forensic term used in scripture to denote the acceptance of anyone as righteous in the sight of God.

The Westminster statement on justification says:
“Justification is altogether a legal declarative act on God’s part as the supreme judge. We deny that justification is any sense a moral transformation or inner renewal. In justification, God legally declares the sinner who in himself is still guilty and polluted to be righteous in Christ. Justification involves only the legal imputation or legal account of the perfect righteousness of Christ to the sinner. We deny that justification is by a grace at conversion that enables sinners to do the law unto their justification.”

Some of the above posts sounded much like this in that they included the word “imputed.” Catholics believe that justification is something much more than imputed righteousness. In Isaiah 55:11 the Lord tells us, “so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.” So when God declares us “justified by his grace through Jesus Christ”, then we are indeed justified. When he says we are a “new creation,” we are indeed a new creation. When he calls us “his children” his word has gone out in power and that is why the apostle John says, “See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are” (see 1 John 3:1). By God calling us children, we become his children.

Over and over, in both the Old and New Testaments, we see the power of God acting upon man and the world. God maintains everything in existence by his divine power. What God wills is accomplished. When we are justified by grace we are a “new creation” and we do not remain polluted. To suggest anything less is a serious error on the nature and power of God’s grace. This does not mean that man loses his free will when justified. A man can choose freely and certainly fall back into sin. In spite of failures, however, God is always ready to forgive those that ask for His mercy and forgiveness.

This is a beginning point for understanding how the Catholic view of justification differs from the Reformed view.
 
Reformed Rob:
I can’t resist! I won’t make this long, but I will say a few things:

I take it you are thoroughly knowledgeable with the “5 Points” of Calvinism and the grounds for believing Sola Fide, so I won’t give the standard arguments. But rather I will say, for someone who believes it, Trent’s anathemas will do nothing to phase their beliefs.

However, here are a few quotes from Church Fathers that you may find interesting:
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I guess I just can’t resist either! We should probably discuss the five points of Calvinism and while doing so we can skip the anathemas of Trent. We also need to mention something about the writings of the early church fathers. Please note that just like Paul, none of the early church fathers ever made the statement that “we are saved by faith alone.” Like Paul, the early church fathers are talking about our initial justification which is a free gift of God’s grace. The Catholic view of justification embraces the teachings of both Paul and James in the most complete and consistent fashion indicated by scripture.

We should also make a point about “grace alone” and “faith alone.” These are not interchangeable terms. Faith is a term that can be fully encompassed by the term grace, but the term grace cannot be fully encompassed by the term faith. Faith is a particular gift of grace.
 
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PXseeker:
A couple of points to ponder:
  • St Paul’s Epistles, most notably to the Romans, makes the point. Luther just emphasized it. Paul is pretty good authority in the Catholic church. Peace,
John
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Read or study what was going on between St. Paul and St. Peter the uncircumcized, eating meat etc. Peter has a dream, God shows him that they too can become followers of Christ.

Problem number 2 does your bible contain the book of St. James I was sure that it did the last time I looked the King James version does have these very same words in the book of James.“Faith without works is dead”
 
Reformed Bob,

Just a point to ponder. St. Paul lists so many accounts (in the book of Hebrews) from Adam to Moses where they showed their faith to God. True enough they have faith, but they followed it up with works. For how can they have faith and not do the work that was prompted by their faith? It would have mean to nothing. That’s why the Apostle James exhorted that “Faith without works is dead.”

If Abraham just had faith that he will have a son thru Sarah in their old age and didn’t have relations with his wife, they wouldn’t have Isaac. God tested him and he believed that even if he was old he will still have a son thru Sarah, though barren and was 80 years old, can still conceive.

Pio
 
A question, just to look at a fascinating discussion from a slightly different perspective, before we wade back in.

Is it the fact that these notorious controversies are second-hand that keeps them alive in the way we’re all familiar with?

What I mean is that, if we were in the company of St Paul himself - supposing the centuries had fallen away - would we talk to him in the way we talk to each other?

Telling him exactly what the Letter to the Romans means. What he means by Grace. How justification works. Who is saved. What he understands by the Church.

In the usual highly assertive tone of voice, with the usual air of finality, and with the inevitable sense that - on this particular point at least - we can’t be wrong for one reason or another.

Easy enough to do in the third person. Paul said this. Scripture says this. But in the second person, wouldn’t we be more inclined towards humility?

Even if the Pope, or Calvin, or Cranmer were present - again, hypothetically - wouldn’t we be astonished if they addressed Paul in the way they are or were accustomed to address each other, or the rest of us?

Great thread everyone!
 
Martin Luther did this for political reasons. After being excommunicated he had to think of a major reason for starting a new Christian religion. He really just took St. Paul’s words out of context. Did he forget what St. James said about this issue?

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? (James 2:14)
 
holdencaulfield said:
Martin Luther did this for political reasons. After being excommunicated he had to think of a major reason for starting a new Christian religion. He really just took St. Paul’s words out of context. Did he forget what St. James said about this issue?

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? (James 2:14)
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Not a single reformer taught that a dead faith was a saving faith.
 
Reformed Rob,

in the below statement

Justification is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners, in which He pardons all their sins, accepteth and accounteth their persons righteous in His sight; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them, and received by faith alone.

Now by this definition must one be obedient as to do good deed as Christ has done and even greater ones in conjunction with the gift of faith.

Now the main question here are the words “faith alone” are they together anywhere in the bible and where are they.

It is done once in the bible and may surprise you where.

I ask this question repeatably on the Catholic Answeres forums and have yet had a faith alone advocate step up to the plate in answering this question. It is simple and basic for anyone with any knowledge of the bible.

Rather I get definitions or part verses or chapters from Paul in the bible completely taken out of context.

Paul was speaking concerning deeds of those of the Jewish High Priests who refused to believe in Christ.

Paul was also speaking of matters that would be necessary for the Gentiles to be accepted into the new founded Jewish sect. later known as Christianity.

Jesus never doubted Peter’s faith but left Peter in the end with 3 things to do and what they were are deeds.
 
c659smith said:
Reformed Rob,

in the below statement

Justification is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners, in which He pardons all their sins, accepteth and accounteth their persons righteous in His sight; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them, and received by faith alone.

Now by this definition must one be obedient as to do good deed as Christ has done and even greater ones in conjunction with the gift of faith.

Now the main question here are the words “faith alone” are they together anywhere in the bible and where are they.

It is done once in the bible and may surprise you where.

I ask this question repeatably on the Catholic Answeres forums and have yet had a faith alone advocate step up to the plate in answering this question. It is simple and basic for anyone with any knowledge of the bible.

Rather I get definitions or part verses or chapters from Paul in the bible completely taken out of context.

Paul was speaking concerning deeds of those of the Jewish High Priests who refused to believe in Christ.

Paul was also speaking of matters that would be necessary for the Gentiles to be accepted into the new founded Jewish sect. later known as Christianity.

Jesus never doubted Peter’s faith but left Peter in the end with 3 things to do and what they were are deeds.
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I’m glad you asked that. I was having a friendly argument about that just the other day. I think this is that passage you were talking about:

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Now, from this quote one would believe that salvation is gained by faith alone. This seems quite accurate. However lets look to other places as well.

“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?” (James 2:14)

No this institutes a problem. Can we say that St. Paul and St. James are contradicting each other? If we go with the Protestant definition of the afterlife then the answer is yes. However on the other hand lets look at something that helps. The belief in Purgatory. If one goes to Purgatory they are saved. However they do not immediately go to Heaven. Now Purgatory is different from Hell, but it is still being saved from eternal damnation. And as well one still well get to go to Heaven.

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification” (CCC 1030)

This would agree with my statement. The Catholic belief introduces no contradiction, however the Protestant one does. If you have any other arguments or questions I would love to continue this debate.
 
Holdencaulfeld,

The question is where does the words (faith alone) appear in the bible side by side together just as the the title of this thread.

Give up yet? *********** Faith Alone***************
Faith Alone
Faith Alone
 
c659smith said:
Holdencaulfeld,

The question is where does the words (faith alone) appear in the bible side by side together just as the the title of this thread.

Give up yet? *********** Faith Alone***************
Faith Alone
Code: 
                                 Faith Alone
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Ok show me.

“What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!” (Romans 6:1-2)

Obviously St. Paul does not agree that sin doesn’t keep you out of Heaven. And what about this.

“Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful” (Revelation 21:27)
 
I thought James 2:14-26 was written to clear up this misconception about justification:
14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food: 16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.
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