Justification by Faith?

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

Now, I don’t think it serves any use to tell people who don’t understand your position that they are being nefarious in that misunderstanding. You have to imagine that people would have to pretty silly and devious to go around pretending something that they know is not true for the sake of causing strive.

But I have had exchanges with some fundamentalists that fit the bill. (Have you ever been to a site called “Catholics for Christ”? That will open your eyes!) In particular, I recall a discussion I had (not on a religious forum, but with a fellow falconer) about this subject and NOTHING I said (and I said it in charity) made a dent. He was simply not going to let go of his hatred. I know it doesn’t make sense, but that’s where I really do see the hand of Satan; that desire to hate in spite of everything. In some ways, it makes me feel rather good about the Church, because when I see irrational hatred I know that Satan is behind it,and Satan hates Jesus’s Church. I also wonder if there isn’t a kernel of doubt inside these people; a recognition of truth. Because that truth is at odds with what they’ve come to believe, they perhaps use the misconceptions to bolster their beliefs, sort of a way to try and convince themselves and relieve the inner conflict. But that’s armchair psychology…

Kendy:

I was raised catholic and I was under the impression that that was the church’s position.

I was raised Catholic too, but actually I was under the impression that all I had to do was believe—I guess it depends upon who taught you, and when.

Kendy:

Yes, some people do want to stick it to the church, but only because they believe that the RCC teaches this. If it wasn’t for this, they would have no other reasons for sticking it to the church since for protestants this is the most important issue.

I agree. I think that sincere Protestants, if they are truly committed to truth, will be open to the correction of the usual misconceptions. That might explain why so many converts to Catholicsm come from the ranks of Protestant clergymen: they are looking for truth, well-versed in Scripture, and are committed to serving the Lord. Conversely, Protestantism gets many, many converts from the ranks of poorly taught and lukewarm Catholics.

Kendy:

Anyway, I spent the first sixteen years of my life in the church, including going to catholic elementary schools, and for the most part, I had no idea why I was doing the things I was being asked to do. Recently, I spoke to a bunch of catholic teenagers and I was surprised by how little they understood about the church. If people in the church don’t always understand what the church teaches, it should be no surprise that there are many outside of the church who don’t as well.

I hear ya. I was raised as a Catholic in an observant but not fervent home, and went to Catholic schools (apparently that’s how my parents chose to pass on the faith to us, by leaving it to the schools). Unfortunately, it was at a time when the catechesis was miserable. It’s not surprising, then, that I became an atheist for a time, and then a Protestant. But everyone is called to seek truth, and so we have to put aside the poor catechesis and approach the faith as adults. Just because it wasn’t passed on correctly doesn’t affect whether or not it’s true. Just because some Catholics don’t know much or act like they should does not negate the Church—truth is truth.

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

No big deal. Anyway, I really was hoping you would answer this question. What is the inheritance?

Well, I always thought it was just being part of God’s family and sharing the blessings of the father.

Kendy

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

Well, I always thought it was just being part of God’s family and sharing the blessings of the father.

Kendy

What are the “blessings of the father”? Sorry, I don’t mean to be picky, but I just want to clarify your position.

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

So, maybe it’s on Protestants to actually seek to understand what Catholics mean when they say that, rather than just condemning them. The Reformers were certainly not as far away in understanding from the Church as modern day Evangelicals.

Well, I also think it is fruitless to tell other people how they should love you. You only have controlover how you love them.

I used to say by “faith alone.” What I meant is I cannot earn my salvation. However, I realize that what catholics hear is a dismissal of James 2, which they interpret as sin like hell on your way to heaven. This creates confusion and strife. So, I have resolved to modify my language. It’s my way of trying to be loving, which is something I have control over.

Now the faith + works = salvation is something I told by a catholic last year. It’s possible that she did not mean that one earns one salvation or she misunderstood the church’s position.

Kendy

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

Well, I also think it is fruitless to tell other people how they should love you. You only have controlover how you love them.

I used to say by “faith alone.” What I meant is I cannot earn my salvation. However, I realize that what catholics hear is a dismissal of James 2, which they interpret as sin like hell on your way to heaven. This creates confusion and strife. So, I have resolved to modify my language. It’s my way of trying to be loving, which is something I have control over.

Now the faith + works = salvation is something I told by a catholic last year. It’s possible that she did not mean that one earns one salvation or she misunderstood the church’s position.

Kendy

I am a Christian counselor. I work with clients who have serious substance abuse disorders every day. I recite the serenity prayer daily: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change (other people, places and circumstances/situations), the courage to change the things I can (my thoughts, words and actions), and the wisdom to know the difference. I am very well aware that I cannot change anyone without their consent. I am not telling anyone how to love me. You threw out a problem. I threw out a potential solution. Take it or leave it. I won’t hate you if you choose to leave it, but I wouldn’t be doing my job if I didn’t point out the obvious.

I appreciate your open-mindedness Kendy. That’s awesome that you love like that. It’s very Christ-like in my opinion. It appears that you seek unity and love, and that leads you to attempt to understand other peoples’ positions.

Finally, after discussing these issues with people on this website, I hope that you can identify what Catholic teaching is. If this lady departed from it, she spoke for herself, not the Church (despite what she calls herself).

 

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

Well, I also think it is fruitless to tell other people how they should love you. You only have controlover how you love them.

But throughout the Old and New Testaments, God is doing precisely that—He’s telling us how we can love Him. That revelation is truth. The Church is the deposit and protector of that revelation. If it’s all “I worship my way, and you worship your way”, then you have relativism. As for me, I will worship God’s way.

 

[Kendy]

Sherlock:

I agree. I think that sincere Protestants, if they are truly committed to truth, will be open to the correction of the usual misconceptions. That might explain why so many converts to Catholicsm come from the ranks of Protestant clergymen: they are looking for truth, well-versed in Scripture, and are committed to serving the Lord. Conversely, Protestantism gets many, many converts from the ranks of poorly taught and lukewarm Catholics.

I have noticed this as well. Wheaten college, the best evangelical liberals school in the world, puts out a lot of catholics,which concerns many evangelicals. It is Wheaten College’s intention, but it happens a lot at Wheaten. However, I am not sure this is something to boast about. That people who already know the Lord decide to become catholics is fine with me. But keep in mind that usually this is someone who has been confessing Jesus Christ for years. As far as I am concern that person was not in danger of damnation. Perhaps, they decided that they needed more and the catholic church offered them that, but they still got their very important baby food at a protestant church.

On the other hand, evangelicals and pentacostals, especially pentacostals, are doing a pretty good job of bringing cultural catholics out of the church.They are doing a great job in Latin America. Demographers predict that if current trends continue Latin America will eventually become predominantly protestant. And they are converting people who don’t have serious faith or who have lost it completely. If it were not for that, these people might not be Christians at all!!! And that is very important.

A few weeks ago, I was reading a thread about someone who was considering leaving the church to become a wiccan, and I was stunned by how many times someone told him to study this or that history book. I was stunned that no one said, Jesus loves you and is the only person who died to redeem you.

The RCC insists that it possess the fullness of truth. Assuming that this is true, it doesn’t matter if the church fails to convey the most important truth, the truth of John 3:16.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

What are the “blessings of the father”? Sorry, I don’t mean to be picky, but I just want to clarify your position.

Oh, Red. I really you would be better off asking Jim since I don’t really know. It’s hard to clarify my position since I don’t think I have an accurate interpretation of the parable.Ok, how about eternal life?

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Sherlock:

But throughout the Old and New Testaments, God is doing precisely that—He’s telling us how we can love Him. That revelation is truth. The Church is the deposit and protector of that revelation. If it’s all “I worship my way, and you worship your way”, then you have relativism. As for me, I will worship God’s way.

Sherlock,

I think this takes on into a slightly different territory then I intended. I just mean, instead of saying to someone else, you need to understand me, we are all better off taking upon ourselves to do the loving thing. This applies to protestants and catholics, but you only have control over how you love me and I only have control over how I love you.

Kendy

 

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

Sherlock,

I think this takes on into a slightly different territory then I intended. I just mean, instead of saying to someone else, you need to understand me, we are all better off taking upon ourselves to do the loving thing. This applies to protestants and catholics, but you only have control over how you love me and I only have control over how I love you.

Kendy

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

I have noticed this as well. Wheaten college, the best evangelical liberals school in the world, puts out a lot of catholics,which concerns many evangelicals. It is Wheaten College’s intention, but it happens a lot at Wheaten. However, I am not sure this is something to boast about. That people who already know the Lord decide to become catholics is fine with me. But keep in mind that usually this is someone who has been confessing Jesus Christ for years. As far as I am concern that person was not in danger of damnation. Perhaps, they decided that they needed more and the catholic church offered them that, but they still got their very important baby food at a protestant church.

On the other hand, evangelicals and pentacostals, especially pentacostals, are doing a pretty good job of bringing cultural catholics out of the church.They are doing a great job in Latin America. Demographers predict that if current trends continue Latin America will eventually become predominantly protestant. And they are converting people who don’t have serious faith or who have lost it completely. If it were not for that, these people might not be Christians at all!!! And that is very important.

A few weeks ago, I was reading a thread about someone who was considering leaving the church to become a wiccan, and I was stunned by how many times someone told him to study this or that history book. I was stunned that no one said, Jesus loves you and is the only person who died to redeem you.

The RCC insists that it possess the fullness of truth. Assuming that this is true, it doesn’t matter if the church fails to convey the most important truth, the truth of John 3:16.

Kendy

Kendy, I work with dozens of guys every month that have been “saved”. A lot of good that has done them as they continue to get high, have sex with hookers, commit crimes, etc. Being Christian is not just doing the bare minimum. Your experiences are subjective to you. The truth is objective. We must first find where the objective truth lies. Then, we must do our part to live that out. There is nothing intrisically flawed about the Catholic Church and it’s evangelization. We just need more people on fire, like you, to come evangelize with the fullness of truth.

 

[Stephen_Butler]

Kendy:

Who founded the catholic church? I think the catholic church as it today developed over the course of many years. I think when the Roman Empire became catholic, the church had evolved from the faith of poor and enslaved that it started to a powerful institution which was occasionally co-opted by the powers that be. I believe that during this time, the catholic church nurtured the gospel, but I believe that there was also a lot of corruption and that the church did not always reflect the light of Christ as it should have. For hundreds of years before the reformation, the church persecuted dissenters. The reformation was the movement it could not quelch. snip.

Redbandito:

That’s not historically accurate, but that’s for another thread. Maybe you should do some more research. I don’t mean that in a condescending way, but seriously the primary sources from history are readily available. Try reading Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Ireneaus, Origen, Tertullian, Polycarp, etc. See if these 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century writers would agree with your explanation of history.

Actually, I feel he is historically accurate; although, I would be open to evidence to the contrary. Kendy is referring to events in the Church History which occurred 200-1400 years after all of early writers Redbandito mentioned crossed into heaven. Also, it appears that his interpretation of those events is more of an opinion. I see nothing fundamentally invalid about that opinion. He is essentially stating that from the time of the Edict of Milan until roughly 1515 that the Roman Catholic Church underwent very significant changes and that there was a great deal of corruption that arose slowly in the Church. I feel those are very valid assertions, but academic points only, as I try not to judge those of the past nor do I wish to base relationships on the deeds or misdeeds done so long ago.

However, while I feel Kendy’s assertions are correct, perhaps he did not answer his question. Who founded the Catholic Church? Founded institutions do change over time, often drastically. This does not change their roots. Take the United States for example. This country is very different from the one founded more than 200 years ago. Nonetheless, we still speak of the same founding fathers, and if you wish to be a United States Citizen, there is only one legitimate government.

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ. It is still run by Christ. That has not changed in 2000 years, nor will it change with another 2000. Christ asked Peter to run the Church, which he did. Peter and the apostles began the Church which grew and changed over centuries and millennia. Many noble works and many ignoble works have been done both by the Church and in the Church’s name as could be expected of any human institution. After all, we are all fallible humans, we all sin, and I feel safe in saying that when Christ told Peter that “and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” that this came with the ominous and inevitable warning that the gates of hell were going to give it a shot anyway… But, as Christ has promised us, those gates have not prevailed. Christ’s Church is still here, and is still full of love in spite of the fallible men who have been left to run it, in spite of all the time. Yes, it is old. Yes, it has changed greatly. But, Christ is still its founder and its master.

Directly to the topic of this thread. I feel, like many others, that we are having a 2 Timothy 2: 23-26 debate. We are arguing about nothing. It disappoints me that this topic is such a point of difference between Protestants and Catholics. We all agree that the first step is to believe what Jesus told us. None may come to the father except through Jesus. Once we are baptized and believe, we enter into a state of what the Catholic Church calls “grace.” Use whatever word you like, for a word is nothing more than a way to share an idea with another, but we are speaking of the same thing. We all agree that we are to love the Lord God and to love one another as Jesus loved us. We all agree that Jesus has told us that if we love him, we will keep his commandments. We all agree that when we are in a state of grace and love that we will seek with all our heart to please our King and our Lord. We all agree that we should seek to please him through our thoughts, our words and our deeds.

The only thing we are debating is whether or not the “deeds” portion of this is “mandatory.” I feel that we do not need to press this argument because anyone who has grace will seek to do good works irregardless of whether they are mandatory or not. I would encourage all of us, Catholic and Protestant, to set this matter behind us and not permit it to divide us further.

It was a Protestant minister whose name I cannot recall who said a great deal in very few words: “Faith without works is dead… But works without faith? That’s dead too.”

 

[Redbandito]

Kendy:

Oh, Red. I really you would be better off asking Jim since I don’t really know. It’s hard to clarify my position since I don’t think I have an accurate interpretation of the parable.Ok, how about eternal life?

Kendy

I think you are right. I think that the inheritance does represent eternal life in this parable. Now, take a little while and ponder the implications that has in this story if we are indeed correct.

 

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

I have noticed this as well. Wheaten college, the best evangelical liberals school in the world, puts out a lot of catholics,which concerns many evangelicals. It is Wheaten College’s intention, but it happens a lot at Wheaten. However, I am not sure this is something to boast about. That people who already know the Lord decide to become catholics is fine with me. But keep in mind that usually this is someone who has been confessing Jesus Christ for years. As far as I am concern that person was not in danger of damnation. Perhaps, they decided that they needed more and the catholic church offered them that, but they still got their very important baby food at a protestant church.

Absolutely. I think that the convert’s recognition of having learned to love the Lord in a different church is why you usually don’t see much vitriol directed at their former churches. (And so it is with me: I have no hard feelings for the Protestant churches I attended in my Protestant years. I’m home: what else matters? I heard some interesting and inspiring things, even if I eventually had problems with the relativism.) This is in contrast to some former Catholics (such as those on the “Catholics for Christ” site) who are just extremely hateful. Thankfully it’s just some!

Kendy:

On the other hand, evangelicals and pentacostals, especially pentacostals, are doing a pretty good job of bringing cultural catholics out of the church.They are doing a great job in Latin America. Demographers predict that if current trends continue Latin America will eventually become predominantly protestant. And they are converting people who don’t have serious faith or who have lost it completely. If it were not for that, these people might not be Christians at all!!! And that is very important…

I’m not so sure, as you are, that this is a good thing. And if they’ve been properly baptized, they are indeed Christians—just non-practicing ones. I see some positives; I see some negatives. But it does mean that Catholics will have to improve catechesis, as it’s typically the poorly catechized that leave.

Kendy:

A few weeks ago, I was reading a thread about someone who was considering leaving the church to become a wiccan, and I was stunned by how many times someone told him to study this or that history book. I was stunned that no one said, Jesus loves you and is the only person who died to redeem you…

Point taken, Kendy. But because we see poorly taught Catholics leave for what are essentially emotional reasons, appealing to intellect is often seen as a counter. I’m not saying it’s necessarily the best response in all cases, but I have to admit that I too try to appeal to reason, probably because I don’t see emotions as a reliable guide for determining what is and what is not truth.

Kendy:

The RCC insists that it possess the fullness of truth. Assuming that this is true, it doesn’t matter if the church fails to convey the most important truth, the truth of John 3:16.

I don’t understand quite what you’re saying here; it IS important. And I have a hard time believing that the wiccan wannabe never heard that in her years as a Catholic. I know I did, even if it didn’t sink in.

 

[Redbandito]

Stephen Butler:

Actually, I feel he is historically accurate; although, I would be open to evidence to the contrary. Kendy is referring to events in the Church History which occurred 200-1400 years after all of early writers Redbandito mentioned crossed into heaven. Also, it appears that his interpretation of those events is more of an opinion. I see nothing fundamentally invalid about that opinion. He is essentially stating that from the time of the Edict of Milan until roughly 1515 that the Roman Catholic Church underwent very significant changes and that there was a great deal of corruption that arose slowly in the Church. I feel those are very valid assertions, but academic points only, as I try not to judge those of the past nor do I wish to base relationships on the deeds or misdeeds done so long ago.

However, while I feel Kendy’s assertions are correct, perhaps he did not answer his question. Who founded the Catholic Church? Founded institutions do change over time, often drastically. This does not change their roots. Take the United States for example. This country is very different from the one founded more than 200 years ago. Nonetheless, we still speak of the same founding fathers, and if you wish to be a United States Citizen, there is only one legitimate government.

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ. It is still run by Christ. That has not changed in 2000 years, nor will it change with another 2000. Christ asked Peter to run the Church, which he did. Peter and the apostles began the Church which grew and changed over centuries and millennia. Many noble works and many ignoble works have been done both by the Church and in the Church’s name as could be expected of any human institution. After all, we are all fallible humans, we all sin, and I feel safe in saying that when Christ told Peter that “and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” that this came with the ominous and inevitable warning that the gates of hell were going to give it a shot anyway… But, as Christ has promised us, those gates have not prevailed. Christ’s Church is still here, and is still full of love in spite of the fallible men who have been left to run it, in spite of all the time. Yes, it is old. Yes, it has changed greatly. But, Christ is still its founder and its master.

Directly to the topic of this thread. I feel, like many others, that we are having a 2 Timothy 2: 23-26 debate. We are arguing about nothing. It disappoints me that this topic is such a point of difference between Protestants and Catholics. We all agree that the first step is to believe what Jesus told us. None may come to the father except through Jesus. Once we are baptized and believe, we enter into a state of what the Catholic Church calls “grace.” Use whatever word you like, for a word is nothing more than a way to share an idea with another, but we are speaking of the same thing. We all agree that we are to love the Lord God and to love one another as Jesus loved us. We all agree that Jesus has told us that if we love him, we will keep his commandments. We all agree that when we are in a state of grace and love that we will seek with all our heart to please our King and our Lord. We all agree that we should seek to please him through our thoughts, our words and our deeds.

The only thing we are debating is whether or not the “deeds” portion of this is “mandatory.” I feel that we do not need to press this argument because anyone who has grace will seek to do good works irregardless of whether they are mandatory or not. I would encourage all of us, Catholic and Protestant, to set this matter behind us and not permit it to divide us further.

It was a Protestant minister whose name I cannot recall who said a great deal in very few words: “Faith without works is dead… But works without faith? That’s dead too.”

For starters, Kendy is a she. Secondly, what I said was not historically accurate was the origin of the Church that she asserted, which you just acknowledged. So, I don’t really understand the point of your post. Secondly, Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch both lived in the first century. The 200-1400 years you proposed is a little misleading. Anyway, I think you missed the point I was making.

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

There is nothing intrisically flawed about the Catholic Church and it’s evangelization. We just need more people on fire, like you, to come evangelize with the fullness of truth.

Oh, I must disagree. Yeah, you need more more on fire people! There is a great priest who has a television show, Father Manning, and he is particularly concerned about losing catholics,and does a really job.I think he has taken a few pointers from protestants. And I think the church would do well to consider learning a few pointers. I am not talking about changing your message (that’s another discussion), but about communicating. Every now and again, I go to catholic church (once or twice a year).I went to night mass on the 24th, and I must say, the chuch needs to do better job in seminaries on the art of a good sermon. I spent the whole time trying to figure out what this homily had to do with the readings; the teenagers sitting in front of me looked pretty bored and had to be hushed several times.

Ironically, the next morning I went to my parents baptist church and they were preaching from the same passage from Isaih (sp), which was the first reading, and the sermon was interesting. What Isaih was telling came alive. He made “unto us a child is born” was made relevant.

Now, as for the people drunkards you described earlier. They are not saved,and I am sorry that they think that they are. You should tell them that Jesus Christ came to transform their lives, and that unless He is the Lord of your life, you are not one of His.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

I think you are right. I think that the inheritance does represent eternal life in this parable. Now, take a little while and ponder the implications that has in this story if we are indeed correct.

Yes, it would imply that you can throw away eternal life and then gain it back. So, now this brings us to regeneration. I think it might be worthwhile to start another thread to define what it is? How it happens? And can it be undone?

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

**I’m not so sure, as you are, that this is a good thing. And if they’ve been properly baptized, they are indeed Christians—just non-practicing ones. I see some positives; I see some negatives. But it does mean that Catholics will have to improve catechesis, as it’s typically the poorly catechized that leave. **

Well, I am not always sure it’s a good thing either since there are pretty since there are some pretty silly pentacostals out there preaching things like the “prosperity gospel.” I am not insensitive to the pitfalls that of having so many competiting version of Christianity floating out there. Nevertheless, baptized or not, people who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ and the redemptive work of the cross are in real danger and I would rather they believed in that than not at all. There are also many pretty solid protestant churches out there.

**Point taken, Kendy. But because we see poorly taught Catholics leave for what are essentially emotional reasons, appealing to intellect is often seen as a counter. I’m not saying it’s necessarily the best response in all cases, but I have to admit that I too try to appeal to reason, probably because I don’t see emotions as a reliable guide for determining what is and what is not truth. **

Perhaps, but it might just mean that their emotions are not being properly fed. You possess the ultimate emotional high, the love God, use it.

I don’t understand quite what you’re saying here; it IS important. And I have a hard time believing that the wiccan wannabe never heard that in her years as a Catholic. I know I did, even if it didn’t sink in.

I am not saying truth is not important. I am saying theology without the love of God is pretty useless. As you know, there is a difference between hearing and hearing. If you are not convinced of the love of God, you will always look for something else to fill you god-given, god-shaped emotional void.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Redbandito:

For starters, Kendy is a she. Secondly, what I said was not historically accurate was the origin of the Church that she asserted, which you just acknowledged. So, I don’t really understand the point of your post. Secondly, Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch both lived in the first century. The 200-1400 years you proposed is a little misleading. Anyway, I think you missed the point I was making.

Well, I think he’s saying we need to stop arguing, but if he reads further,he will see, despite a few disappointments moments here and there, we have made great strides.

Kendy

 

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

Well, I think he’s saying we need to stop arguing, but if he reads further,he will see, despite a few disappointments moments here and there, we have made great strides.

Kendy

I agree. (See, we can agree!)