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Canto
Guest
And whom does God intend to save?
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bookgirl32
Guest
What, exactly, is “lay Catholic propoganda”?
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bookgirl32
Guest
And how do you know you’re one of them? That’s the part that always gets me. Is there anyone who believes in a Calvinist view of predestination that thinks it’s true, and they are not one of those predestined?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Should we discuss and debate the 5 Points of Calvinism on the apologetics section? Start a thread over there and invite me to it.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Those whom the Father gave Him to save. Have you not read the Scriptures?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Lay Catholic apologetic without any substantial behind it. For instance, the world is flat because the Magestrium tells us it is.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Do you believe you are an elect, God’s chosen, saint, or a vessel of mercy? Do you believe that you are united to Christ by faith? Please answer.
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guanophore
Guest
I think he made it up, because he had no response for the scriptures I posted.
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guanophore
Guest
I sure hope we can do that, but why dont you start by responding to the scriptures I posted here? I think TULIP will be very relevant in this discussion.Should we discuss and debate the 5 Points of Calvinism on the apologetics section? Start a thread over there and invite me to it.
The differences between Catholic and Calvanistic thought on free will are based in the TULIP.
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bookgirl32
Guest
Why do you always answer questions with questions?
I believe that at Baptism the stain of original sin was washed away and I became a child of God, a member of the Church, a member of the communion of saints. I believe that I need to have a faith that works in love (good works) through the grace of Christ. I believe that I can cut myself off from this sanctifying grace by rejecting God through mortal sin, and if I die in that state, I will go to Hell. If I die in the state of sanctifying grace, I will go to Heaven (probably with a little detour to Purgatory along the way). In other words, my free will is the controlling factor in whether or not I am united to Christ. And by the truth handed down through the Church by both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, I can know for certain if something is, or isn’t, a sin.
Can you answer my question now? Do you know of anyone who believes in a Calvinistic predestination who also believes that they are not one of the elect?
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bookgirl32
Guest
So do you spout lay Protestant propoganda?
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guanophore
Guest
Actually, that is probably the most appropriate response to your fallacious expressions. If you create a false dichotomy, do you expect the Magesterium to publish an official document to refute the product of your imagination?
You claim that it is necessary to “juggle” Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture. It seems this way to you because you are separated from Sacred Tradition, and you interpret the scriptures in isolation from the beliefs of those who wrote them. Catholics see the two sources as threads woven together, so there is no “juggling” for us.
you still have not responded to the Scriptures I posted.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
What did God foreknow about the predestined?
Their works? Their faith? Their obedience? Their humility?
What didn’t he know?
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Canto
Guest
And who are those whom the Father gave Him to save?
Is every single one of them guaranteed a spot in heaven?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
You always run from the issues my brother. You have been bugging me for weeks to debate on the Apologetics section. Therefore, please start a friendly brotherly thread on TULIP on the Apologetics section and I will join you. It is much better for a Catholic Christian to start a TULIP thread on the apologetics sections. No more lay apologetics with lay Catholic methods of avoiding the issues at hand. It’s time to be humbled by the Word of God my brother. Like alll Calvinists, we have discussed and debated TULIP with our dear Arminian Protestant brothers in the Scriptures for years.
So, if we stay within the Scriptures, you will be humbled. If you keep appealing to the Catholic Magestrium over Scripture, then we won’t really be debating TULIP. Just because the Magestrium tells you the Earth is flat… does not mean the world is really flat. :knight2::knight1::grouphug: The strenght of Calvinism and TULIP is the Scriptures. Charles Spurgeon writes that Calvinism is but a nickname for Biblical Christianity.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
All Christians believe that they are united to Christ. Scripture calls those who are united to Christ to be Christians, the Elect, chosen ones, saints, vessels of mercy, sanctified (set apart ones), etc. I do not know of anyone who believes in Calvinistic predestination and do not believe they are not an elect (Christian). Peter tells us to make our calling and election sure in his 2nd Epistle. I would just say that you as my dear Catholic sister to “read the Bible more” and you will learn about a greater work of Jesus Christ on your behalf… to the praise and glory of His saving grace.
Do you believe that God is your Heavenly Father? Have you been adopted into the family of God based on the person and work of Christ alone? Or, do you see your adoption papers on hold, pending on how you perform in this life? Sounds like a works righteousness potential adoption to me. 
uch::doh2: How sufficent is the work of Christ for you in your adoption?Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Heirs with Christ
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Future Glory
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I’m not going to do your Bible homework for you. Search the Scriptures with a pure heart and you will find the answers to your questions, according to Sacred Scripture. Sometimes, I believe Catholics do not really see how great a work Jesus did for His people.
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crazzeto
Guest
Why don’t you answer the question? Do it in the spirit that I already did your bible study homework for you and posted how Justification works. So why don’t you go ahead and let us how you think justification works. Just answer the question.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think you need to search the Scriptures for yourself to find the answers to your questions. Here’s motivation from a Catholic brother in the Lord.
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0402fea3.asp
Here’s additional motivation for you from a Catholic college professor.
catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html
Don’t worry, if you study the Scriptures, you will not be turned into a Protestant Christian.
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crazzeto
Guest
I already gave you answers, I did my homework and I’m letting you cheat of my test paper. What’s your answer?
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