Justification - Catholics and Protestants

[guanophore]

I don’t believe any particular branch of Christianity has the fullness of truth, including the Reformed circles.

Right, but you know that Catholics do believe that. This is why we have an apologetics section. We don’t expect to make such claims and get off scot free. We do, as your signature says, need to be able to back ourselves up, especially when it comes to “bible christians”.

Do I believe that a forensic justification and penal subsitution is the truth which glorifies God? :yup::extrahappy: However, that is not just a Reformed distinctive.

It is considered a heresy.

If you don’t want to discuss our differences, you don’t have to respond to my postings.

You are right on 2nd! The main purpose of NC is to compare and contrast beliefs.

Please start a TULIP thread on the Apologetics section.  I would not be right for a Protestant do that on a Catholic Apologetics thread.

You are wrong 2nd. You don’t seem to understand Apologetics. I can understand this, after reading about your horrific experience in CA. However this is exactly what Apologetics is for.

 You can name it something like "TULIP is not true".

No, 2nd. This would be appropriate if I was on a Protestant forum, but not here. Apologetics is for people to post disagreements with the Catholic faith, and to come to an understanding (if willing) as to why Catholics believe diffferently. Someone like you might post, for example “Why don’t Catholics believe in TULIP”.

Somehow, it seems you are impying that Catholic Truth comes out clearer on the Apologetics section.

It might, especially given that many Catholics don’t come here to NC. Many Catholic posters have no interest in discussing matters with non-Christians. For example, there is a Mormon on your “Defending Catholicism” thread, defending the Catholic faith! It is quite comical, really. I think there is also a Bahai, and a few other people. Personally, I don’t get involved with Atheists. They don’t frequent Apologetics either.

You have been told what our differences are over and over again ,and you reject what is taught to you over and over again. So why do you aimlessly go on and on in your wordy posts.

I don’t think this is fair, Carlan. The purpose of NC religions is to compare and contrast beliefs. He may not want to be “taught” as much as he wants to clarify the differences, and that is a perfectly acceptable use of the threads.

What he said was true, if you think the posts are wordy or annoying, there is an “ignore” feature that will block them, so you don’t have to see them.

** You are not convincing any of us**. Are you still holding out for another mis guided Tweety to come along hoping to pull the wool over them also. I for one am exceedingly tired of you. and your prattle. You may call this post unchristian if you wish, however I think more and more of us here are beginning to feel about you as Jesus did the money changers in the Temple.Carlan

it is better, actually, if 2nd does not try to do this. Evangelism is strictly prohibited here.

As for Tweety, I think it is better if she refrains from posting as a Catholic anyhow, since she has made it clear she is not.

You are predestined to start that thread of “TULIP is not true” on the Catholic Apolgetics section. Please PM when you do what you are predetermined to do.

Adam, you are not making any sense. Why would I assert something is not true on CAF when the Early Church already defeated it as a heresy in the beginning centuries of the Church? It would be like posting "people who reject the Trinity are not Christians’. It is like stating the obvious!

You’ve already started discussing TULIP. You might as well continue on the Apologetics section. Augustine was a TULIP.

Any discussion about justification will eventually go there, I suppose.

I can see how people get TULIP from Augustine. If you do to his writings the same things you to do Scripture, and disregard large parts of it, you can extract the passages that support all kinds of heresies like SS and TULIP. This can be done with any Christian writings.

 

[guanophore]

Actually, I have changed in 10 years. I only posted that at the request of a poster. I consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. I’m more into ecumenicism such as ECT 1 and ECT II.

You might want to consider that Catholic apologists have matured as well.

Hmmm , so this is what you have been hoping for over here. Not had much luck, have you. You may do better going back to where you had all of your success.:yawn:Carlan

Carlan, you seem to be taunting 2nd, and this is a sensitive spot, since it sounds like his experience with Catholic Apologists was very unpleasant.

2nd is one of the main reasons CAF is here. The goal of CAF is to give people like 2nd Catholic Answers. There is no obligation that he accept them. Besides, we have to keep in mind that there are usually 10 times as many people reading the thread that are not posting (check the stats on the home page). Many of these people will benefit from what you and others contribute to the thread. Many of them may be teachable, and do want to grow in Catholic faith. People like 2nd are bold enough to actually post and dialogue about what many are thinking and wondering, but they may not have the temerity to say so. For this reason, we need to be grateful to persons such as 2nd who do bring these questions openly.

 

[guanophore]

Since monergism is a foreign concept with most Catholic siblings....

This is very true. Such a concept was unheard of in all of Christendom for 1500 years. It is a foreign concept because it had not been invented yet.

Catholics receive doctrine from Christ, through the Apostles, and this is not included in the Divine Deposit of Faith that was once for all delivered to the Church.

Monergism: In regeneration, the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ independent of any cooperation from our unregenerated human nature.

This concept is a modern innovation.

He quickens us through the outward call cast forth by the preaching of His Word, disarms our innate hostility, removes our blindness, illumines our mind, creates understanding, turns our heart of stone to a heart of flesh -- giving rise to a delight in His Word -- all that we might, with our renewed affections, willingly & gladly embrace Christ.

There are some elements of this that are included in what the Apostles termed “calling” or in Latin “prevenient” grace (drawing grace). However, there are other aspects that do not occur unless the individual responds to that grace. The differences are based on the nature of man and the effects of original sin (concept of depravity).

The Prophet Ezekiel inspired by the Holy Spirit asserted “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.” (Eze 11:19, also 36:26)

This is what the Apostles taught happens in baptism.

The Apostle Paul said, “For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.” (1 Thess 1, 4, 5). I.e. In regeneration the word does not work alone but must be accompanied by the “germination” of the Holy Spirit.

This much is Catholic.

. And again “…you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.” (1 Pet 1:23)

Catholics call this “initial justification”.

 

[2nd_Adam]

There are some elements of this that are included in what the Apostles termed “calling” or in Latin “prevenient” grace (drawing grace). However, there are other aspects that do not occur unless the individual responds to that grace. The differences are based on the nature of man and the effects of original sin (concept of depravity).

prevenient" grace (drawing grace)

As you well know, Arminian Protestant Christians believe in prevenient grace too. It’s the woo concept verse the quickening of the Spirit. I guess I can stay on this justification thread along with the TULIP thread and actually get some work done too.

 

[guanophore]

prevenient" grace (drawing grace)

As you well know, Arminian Protestant Christians believe in prevenient grace too. It’s the woo concept verse the quickening of the Spirit.

There are many Apostolic doctrines found in the theologies of our separated brethren.

Not all who are called (wooed) respond. Those that respond,and choose to place their faith in Him, receive the promised HS,and by that Spirit, are “quickened”.

Is this related to justification, though? the fact that Calvanists think we are justified apart from human participation is really part of the TULIP, is it not?

I will go back and look at the OP. Perhaps there is no longer a need for this thread?

Let's discuss the biblical doctrine of justification and see if we can understand the Catholic and Protestant view of this essential doctrine.

Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ’s righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight. - Wayne Grudem Systematic Theology (pg. 723)

The Catholic faith includes this, but does not limit it to this. The Apsotles taught that we are justified because we are made righteous, not just because God decides to "imagine’ or “think” of us this way when we really are not.

Scripture, when it treats of justification by faith, leads us in a very different direction.

I asked you this before, but did not get an answer. Different from what?

God of his mere gratuitous goodness is pleased to embrace the sinner, in whom he sees nothing that can move him to mercy but wretchedness,

If I understand this statement correctly, it describes the error of total depravity. Perhaps that belongs in the other thread?

because he sees him altogether naked and destitute of good works.

This is a frightening statement from a Calvanist, since it implies that our “worth” as human beings lies i our ability to do “good works”. It is actually closer to the concept of “works based salvation” than anything Catholic. It implies that, if God could find what He considered “good works” in man, that He would be moved to mercy by it.

He, therefore, seeks the cause of kindness in himself, that thus he may affect the sinner by a sense of his goodness, and induce him, in distrust of his own works, to cast himself entirely upon his mercy for salvation. This is the meaning of faith by which the sinner comes into the possession of salvation, when, according to the doctrine of the Gospel, he perceives that he is reconciled by God; when, by the intercession of Christ, he obtains the pardon of his sins, and is justified; and, though renewed by the Spirit of God, considers that, instead of leaning on his own works, he must look solely to the righteousness which is treasured up for him in Christ.
**John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion (3.11.16) **

This still seems to imply that the sinner “receives” God’s grace in order to be born again. Maybe I misunderstand Calvin, and he is saying that the sinner receives the grace because he was already regenerated?

he makes us share with him in everything that he has received from the Father.
John Calvin Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:5

Except, apparently, the ability to reject Him. This is a quality that God apparently created in man, yet “uncreated” when man fell?

Those whom, God effectually calls he also freely justifies, not by infusing righteousness into them,

And why not? Both things happen. Forensic justification does not preclude the infusion of grace.

not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing,

So Calvin agrees placing faith in God is a 'work"?

, which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God - **Westminster Confession of Faith (11.1) **

This seems to imply that God did not create mankind with the capacity for faith, which is false.

Justification is a judicial act of God, in which He declares, on the basis of the righteousness of Jesus Christ, that all the claims of the law are satisfied with respect to the sinner.  - . **Berkhof Systematic Theology (pg. 513) **

A true statement that does not preclude actual righteousness. He in fact declares what He has made to be true.

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. - Paul

The Apostles taught this is happens in baptism, where we are joined to Christ’s death on the cross as we are buried in water.

 

[2nd_Adam]

There are many Apostolic doctrines found in the theologies of our separated brethren.

Not all who are called (wooed) respond. Those that respond,and choose to place their faith in Him, receive the promised HS,and by that Spirit, are “quickened”.

Is this related to justification, though? the fact that Calvanists think we are justified apart from human participation is really part of the TULIP, is it not?

I will go back and look at the OP. Perhaps there is no longer a need for this thread?

I think this is the most important thread for Catholics and Protestants coming together. It is the doctrine of justification which really divides us. From the historic Protestant perspective, justification is the central issue (see my links). I think the TULIP thread will cause too many to stumble and sin. I am really here to help all of us to grow in our love and affection for God.

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

St. Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008

Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes?

 

[tweetymom]

Glad that some here have not forgotten to continually bash me but its ok! Romans 8:28

 

[crazzeto]

Glad that some here have not forgotten to continually bash me but its ok! Romans 8:28

Who here, ever “bashed” you? Who here, ever “bashed” anyone else in this thread?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Glad that some here have not forgotten to continually bash me but its ok! Romans 8:28

Hi sister,

I think the moderators closed the thread in which you seemed to be bashed. I’m glad you are still here!

http://www.accd.edu/sac/business/emcauliffe/lgla1345/sylvester2.gif

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Hi sister,

I think the moderators closed the thread in which you seemed to be bashed. I’m glad you are still here!

http://www.accd.edu/sac/business/emcauliffe/lgla1345/sylvester2.gif

If it is the thread I am thinking of it was closed because it was over its 1000 post limit.

God bless you

 

[guanophore]

I think this is the most important thread for Catholics and Protestants coming together. It is the doctrine of justification which really divides us.

Well, it is your thread, so it is your call. You are making a false statement here, though. Catholics and Protestants are not divided on this docrine, We both agree that we are justified by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast. We both agree that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We both agree that not by any works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy he has saved us.

I think what divides are people’s misunderstandings, not the doctrine.

From the historic Protestant perspective, justification is the central issue (see my links). I think the TULIP thread will cause too many to stumble and sin. I am really here to help all of us to grow in our love and affection for God.

Well, if you think you will stumble into sin trying to defend the TULIP, it would be better not to try.

If yoru purpose here is to help Cathlics to grow in their love and affection for God, and it is true what you have posted, that those who read their bible more will drift further and further from Catholicism, this constitutes a personal agenda of evangelization.

Catholic answers is not provided as a venue for you to pull Catholics away from their faith. we are here to provide Catholic answers to sincere questions. If your goal is to provide pastoring for “bible christians” you have come to the wrong place.

 

[Carlan]

You might want to consider that Catholic apologists have matured as well.

Carlan, you seem to be taunting 2nd, and this is a sensitive spot, since it sounds like his experience with Catholic Apologists was very unpleasant.

2nd is one of the main reasons CAF is here. The goal of CAF is to give people like 2nd Catholic Answers. There is no obligation that he accept them. Besides, we have to keep in mind that there are usually 10 times as many people reading the thread that are not posting (check the stats on the home page). Many of these people will benefit from what you and others contribute to the thread. Many of them may be teachable, and do want to grow in Catholic faith. People like 2nd are bold enough to actually post and dialogue about what many are thinking and wondering, but they may not have the temerity to say so. For this reason, we need to be grateful to persons such as 2nd who do bring these questions openly.

Yes, Guan it is so,but his closed mind to much of what you and others are trying to teach, does cause me to want to jump off my bike with fisty cuffs ready. That is uncharitable I know. I get frustrated with myself for not being able to get in there good and proper amongst the fray as you and others do with so much expertise. Anyway, I’ll try harder to stand clear, and continue to learn as the debates go on. Your friend in Christ Jesus.Carlan

 

[guanophore]

Glad that some here have not forgotten to continually bash me but its ok! Romans 8:28

No one has forgotten you Tweety, on the contrary, there is a group of us praying for you everyday.

Every day you don’t post something uncatholic under the guise of being Catholic is another day I don’t need to draw any attention to the discrepancy between what you post, and what you claim to believe.

You might want to check out the TULIP thread in Apologetics though, because I managed to find a way to bring you up over there!

 

[guanophore]

If it is the thread I am thinking of it was closed because it was over its 1000 post limit.

God bless you

I wrote the mods to remind them it was over, and to point out that the posts were off topic, just in case they missed it.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, Guan it is so,but his closed mind to much of what you and others are trying to teach…

This is very important, too. 2nd has made it clear from the beginning that he is not here to learn, but to evangelize. He believes, as he has said, that the “theological distinctives” are not important. He believes that Catholicism really has nothing to do with people getting saved, that God has a “remnant” in all congregations. He is here to "connect’ to the remnant and “stir the flame” of faith in those who are Elect. He does not believe that all people are supposed to be saved, and that God is going to save those He plans to save, no matter what.

In spite of all that, I do think he has learned a lot since he came here. He asks a lot of good questions (most of them off topic) and if he is not too anxious, really does read the answers. What is most important in a case like this are the lurkers. Others have his same questions, and will benefit from reading, even if he does not. All we can do is plant seeds.

 

[2nd_Adam]

If it is the thread I am thinking of it was closed because it was over its 1000 post limit.

God bless you

Okay, I think you are right. Would it be okay to start a follow up thread called “Catholics need to read their Bibles - part 2”?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Well, it is your thread, so it is your call. You are making a false statement here, though. Catholics and Protestants are not divided on this docrine, We both agree that we are justified by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast. We both agree that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We both agree that not by any works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy he has saved us.

I think what divides are people’s misunderstandings, not the doctrine.

I would have to disagree with your conclusion brother. Please read the end of the Cambridge Declaration which is signed by Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, and other Evangelical leaders. You will find what divides us from our perspective is the doctrine of justification.

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html

The faithfulness of the evangelical church in the past contrasts sharply with its unfaithfulness in the present. Earlier in this century, evangelical churches sustained a remarkable missionary endeavor, and built many religious institutions to serve the cause of biblical truth and Christ’s kingdom. That was a time when Christian behavior and expectations were markedly different from those in the culture. Today they often are not. The evangelical world today is losing its biblical fidelity, moral compass and missionary zeal.

We repent of our worldliness. We have been influenced by the “gospels” of our secular culture, which are no gospels. We have weakened the church by our own lack of serious repentance, our blindness to the sins in ourselves which we see so clearly in others, and our inexcusable failure adequately to tell others about God’s saving work in Jesus Christ.

We also earnestly call back erring professing evangelicals who have deviated from God’s Word in the matters discussed in this Declaration. This includes those who declare that there is hope of eternal life apart from explicit faith in Jesus Christ, who claim that those who reject Christ in this life will be annihilated rather than endure the just judgment of God through eternal suffering, or who claim that evangelicals and Roman Catholics are one in Jesus Christ even where the biblical doctrine of justification is not believed.

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals asks all Christians to give consideration to implementing this Declaration in the church’s worship, ministry, policies, life and evangelism. For Christ’s sake. Amen.​

ACE Council Members:
Dr. John Armstrong
Rev. Alistair Begg
Dr. James M. Boice
Dr. W. Robert Godfrey
Dr. John D. Hannah
Dr. Michael S. Horton
Mrs. Rosemary Jensen
Dr. R. Albert Mohler Jr.
Dr. Robert M. Norris
Dr. R. C. Sproul
Dr. G. Edward Veith
Dr. David Wells
Dr. Luder Whitlock
Dr. J. A. O. Preus, III

The Cambridge Declaration is a response to ECT 1 and ECT II. In addition, from the Cambridge Declaration came the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

alliancenet.org/

Who We Are

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is a broad coalition of evangelical Christians from various denominations, including Baptist, Congregational (Independent), Anglican (Episcopal), Presbyterian, Reformed, and Lutheran. The purpose of the Alliance’s existence is to call the Church, amidst a dying culture, to repent of its worldliness, to recover and confess the truth of God’s Word as did the reformers, and to see that truth embodied in doctrine, worship, and life.

Remember, I believe in a forensic justification in which you called heresy. So, since you posted that we are not divided over the doctrine of justification, do you believe in heresy too?

:juggle::knight2::grouphug:

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Okay, I think you are right. Would it be okay to start a follow up thread called “Catholics need to read their Bibles - part 2”?

Do you really think that topic needs a second thread? I thought it was out of steam after the first couple of pages and conversation went into other directions.

To your question, I have seen other threads followed up with a part 2 but you may want to ask a mod to be sure before you start the thread.

God bless

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I would have to disagree with your conclusion brother…

We also earnestly call back erring professing evangelicals who have deviated from God’s Word in the matters discussed in this Declaration. This includes those who declare that there is hope of eternal life apart from explicit faith in Jesus Christ, who claim that those who reject Christ in this life will be annihilated rather than endure the just judgment of God through eternal suffering, **or who claim that evangelicals and Roman Catholics are one in Jesus Christ **even where the biblical doctrine of justification is not believed.

.

But even you have said that you consider Catholics as brothers and sisters to you in Christ, so even you are at odds with the above declaration which states Catholic and Protestants are not one in Christ.

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is very important, too. 2nd has made it clear from the beginning that he is not here to learn, but to evangelize. He believes, as he has said, that the “theological distinctives” are not important. He believes that Catholicism really has nothing to do with people getting saved, that God has a “remnant” in all congregations. He is here to "connect’ to the remnant and “stir the flame” of faith in those who are Elect. He does not believe that all people are supposed to be saved, and that God is going to save those He plans to save, no matter what.

In spite of all that, I do think he has learned a lot since he came here. He asks a lot of good questions (most of them off topic) and if he is not too anxious, really does read the answers. What is most important in a case like this are the lurkers. Others have his same questions, and will benefit from reading, even if he does not. All we can do is plant seeds.

Hey brother,

That’s a slanderous statement and a lie. That’s the second low blow from you within 24 hours. I would appreciate it if you did not speak for me, or put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by guanophore
Go easy, EENS. I think he is just a bundle of nerves and missed it. He has post traumatic stress disorder from Catholic Apologists.