Justification - Catholics and Protestants

[guanophore]

What context did I take it out of? He listed what he thought you believed. How hard is it to state that you do or don’t?

You want me to go to the thread on TULIP? You just stated, on the thread on Tulip, that you didn’t think it was a good place for the discussion on TULIP and you hoped the moderators would move it back here.

Maybe if he can get you ping ponging back and forth he won’t have to answer your question here or there.

Maybe he is in over his head here…

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure how much you understand the history of the Protestant Reformation and the doctrine of justification. IMO… it appears the Catholic Church has moved toward a more Protestant friendly position of justification…

I am sure it seems this way to you. The doctrine of justification being misrepresented in Europe (especially Germany) is, in large part, what spurred the Reformation in the first place. It is only naturaly that the Reformers never understood the Catholic teahing, being separated from it by rebellion and corruption.

The Pope is stating what has always been held by the Church, but was not being properly taught and lived at the time of the Reformation.

 

[guanophore]

just like TULIP, this is some pretty tough stuff. This is not fast food theology.

No, 2nd, what the Pope is teaching IS Catholic theology and teaching on Justification. It is not “tough”. On the contrary, it is quite simple.

I do agree, though that TULIP is convoluted. then again, wasn’t Calvin a lawyer?

 

[guanophore]

Why can’t Catholics simply be happy that many Evangelicals rejoice in what the Pope taught on the doctrine of justification by faith? Do you prefer that we didn’t like his teaching?

Love rejoices only in the Truth, 2nd. If you are implying that the topic of justification is too difficult for us, or that the Pope teaches something other that Catholic Doctrine (both of which you seem to have implied) then you are stating falsehoods, and this is not an occasion to rejoice with you,.

 

[guanophore]

That’s a very good assessment of the issue at hand. Sanctification does not play a role in our justification before God, because we are declared just upon conversion, based on the righteousness of Christ alone.

On the contrary, it is BECAUSE we are justified by His blood at conversion that sanctification can take place. In baptism, we are “washed, sanctified”. Made Holy. this is the act of grace. We are declared Holy because we are MADE holy,

How can you add to perfection found in Christ?

We can, and must, add ourselves. Christ died for all. Those that do not add themselves will not benefit from HIs sacrifice for themselves.

I think we have to understand that historic Protestants do not believe all who profess Christ actually possess Christ's righteousness through imputation.

Right.

Just like not all persons claiming they are Catholic really are.

A growing affection and love for God are assurance that a sinner has been truly been justified.

What is curious to me is that this happens with many people, but later they fall away.

Since a Catholics justification is not based on the alien righteousness of Christ alone,

Could you please show where in Catholic teaching you got this?

I don’t think you will find the word alien, as it is a modern invention in Reformed theology, but the concept, perhaps?

it appears to many Protestants that Catholic believe in a works righteousness gospel, based on your obedience or cooperation with God, to be made just.

Yes, I can see how it does appear that way.

That’s a tough way to go, since the Christian life is quite the struggle. Christ is sufficient for us because His perfect life and sacrificial death merited our justification on our behalf; therefore, we are able to enter the sabbath rest found in Christ alone.

Yes.

It is within that rest that we work our butts off.

Paul is a good example.

 

[guanophore]

Why do you guys make this so personal? Here’s an article from Christianity Today basically rejoicing on Pope Benedict’s teaching on justification. I know it is a Protestant perspective, but my belief is the same as many other Evangelicals.

It is personal to the extent that your behavior belongs to you. You are the one obfuscating ( I call it blowing smoke), therefore, it pertains to you as a person.

It is like being disingenuous applies to Tweety. She is the one acting that way, so to that extent it applies to her behaviors. All we are asking for here is integrity. Walk your talk.

 

[guanophore]

I understand that this is the Catholic position on justification. But does that mean that Protestants and Catholics cannot unite since our understanding of justification are different?

It means that, to the extent that our separated brethren have DEPARTED from the Catholic (Apostolic) teaching on justification we are NOT united. Unity comes from adherance to the Truth. When people drift from the Truth, unity is broken.

The signers of ECT are trying to cling to that which has been handed to us from the Aposltes, and has been retained among our separated brethren.

 

[tweetymom]

this is great! that is the purpose of CAF.

I like reading your posts, Tweety. It is clear to me that you have a very strong and fervent faith in God. What I mind is when you post anti-Catholic stuff, when your affiliation says you are Catholic. I think it is disingenuous and misleading.

This being the case, why on earth would you want to put me on “ignore”?!

I have changed my mind, you make me laugh too much And keep on minding when I don’t agree I certainly will post my feelings:thumbsup:

 

[bookgirl32]

Maybe if he can get you ping ponging back and forth he won’t have to answer your question here or there.

Maybe he is in over his head here…

:coolinoff:
It is getting quite tiring .

 

[2nd_Adam]

It means that, to the extent that our separated brethren have DEPARTED from the Catholic (Apostolic) teaching on justification we are NOT united. Unity comes from adherance to the Truth. When people drift from the Truth, unity is broken.

The signers of ECT are trying to cling to that which has been handed to us from the Aposltes, and has been retained among our separated brethren.

ECT is quite the juggling act for both sides. :juggle: .But, I personally think it is a good thing. :flowers: What kind of flowers does your wife prefer? My wife loves TULIPS.:flowers:

 

[guanophore]

I have changed my mind, you make me laugh too much And keep on minding when I don’t agree I certainly will post my feelings:thumbsup:

One of the mission of CAF is to provide a venue for people to express theri thoughts and feelings. There is no expectation that there will be agreement, especially here in NC religions.

However, whether or not a person is "Catholic’ is not based on personal opinions or feelings. It is based upon whether one adheres to the doctrines of the Church, which you have stated you do not. You wish to publicly affiliate yourself with a faith that you have also publicly repudiated. It is very curious.

It is like something a double minded person might do.

 

[guanophore]

ECT is quite the juggling act for both sides. :juggle: .But, I personally think it is a good thing. :flowers:

Yes, finding where we can agree is always good. However, it was not ECT you were asking us to rejoice about, You wanted to know why we couldn’t just “be happy” about the Pope’s encyclical on justification by faith. When we told you that this has always been the teaching of the Church, you changed the subject. This is why you have been described as obfuscating.

 

[tweetymom]

One of the mission of CAF is to provide a venue for people to express theri thoughts and feelings. There is no expectation that there will be agreement, especially here in NC religions.

However, whether or not a person is "Catholic’ is not based on personal opinions or feelings. It is based upon whether one adheres to the doctrines of the Church, which you have stated you do not. You wish to publicly affiliate yourself with a faith that you have also publicly repudiated. It is very curious.

It is like something a double minded person might do.

you must know

 

[tweetymom]

One of the mission of CAF is to provide a venue for people to express theri thoughts and feelings. There is no expectation that there will be agreement, especially here in NC religions.

However, whether or not a person is "Catholic’ is not based on personal opinions or feelings. It is based upon whether one adheres to the doctrines of the Church, which you have stated you do not. You wish to publicly affiliate yourself with a faith that you have also publicly repudiated. It is very curious.

It is like something a double minded person might do.

You are the one who continually argues. I have no arguement with how you believe.

 

[Carlan]

I have changed my mind, you make me laugh too much And keep on minding when I don’t agree I certainly will post my feelings:thumbsup:

Hello Tweety, Since the thread is supposed to be about what we as Catholics and Protestants believe our differences are on justification, I am curious to know what you, as an RCIA instructor, teach on the subject. Also does what you teach conflict with what you were taught as a Protestant. If so can you tell me, as a Catholic, what you now believe.

A couple of paragraphs should do it. Thanks Tweety.:thumbsup:Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

Since the doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel, everyone needs to post on this particular apologetics thread created by a Catholic Christian brother. Here it is:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=394299

If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, you have to post on the thread link above!
:harp::hug3::grouphug:

Rejoice in the Lord always, again I say rejoice!

 

[guanophore]

you must know

I had to learn it the hard way, believe me. I used to tell people I was Catholic, because I was baptized Catholic and went to Catechism as a child. However, as I grew up, I grew increasingly distant from what the Church believes and teaches. I finally went the same route you did, and sojourned among my Protestant brethren for many decades. By the time I studied and prayed my way back through the doors of St. Peter, I did not even realize how far my thinking and beliefs had drifted from what is Catholic.

You are the one who continually argues. I have no arguement with how you believe.

Sure you do, Tweety! I have posted that I believe it is disingenuous to call oneself Catholic when one rejects the doctrine of the Church. You disagree with me.

It is ok to disagree on these ideas. That is what the forum is about. We are comparing and contrasting differences.

 

[guanophore]

Since the doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel, everyone needs to post on this particular apologetics thread created by a Catholic Christian brother. Here it is:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=394299

If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, you have to post on the thread link above!

Gosh, 2nd Adam, have you been rising in authority around here fast! First I read this morning that I am not qualified to post on a thread, and now I read taht I “need to post” on a different thread.

Further, the implication is, if I don’t post on that thread, then maybe I really don’t “love the Lord”. Amazing.

Did you get tired of this thread? Did you decide you no longer wish to talk about justification?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Gosh, 2nd Adam, have you been rising in authority around here fast! First I read this morning that I am not qualified to post on a thread, and now I read taht I “need to post” on a different thread.

Further, the implication is, if I don’t post on that thread, then maybe I really don’t “love the Lord”. Amazing.

Did you get tired of this thread? Did you decide you no longer wish to talk about justification?

Of course not. The doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel. How can someone not want to discuss the gospel, especially if we love the Lord Jesus Christ?

I would like to participate on three threads.

1. gospel thread in apologetics
2. justication thread right here.
3. TULIP in apologetics.

http://www.nloma.org/Portals/0/sunset_cross.jpg

 

[guanophore]

Of course not. The doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel. How can someone not want to discuss the gospel, especially if we love the Lord Jesus Christ?

I would like to participate on three threads.

1. gospel thread in apologetics
2. justication thread right here.
3. TULIP in apologetics.

I would like that too. I have to say I was disappointed to learn that I am not qualified to participate in TULIP thread.